Differences in magic.

[Boromir88]

I know there have been other threads devoted to magic, but I feel that this thread can stand on it's own. If not, forgive me thou moderaters.

I stumbled upon a quote by Galadriel, which has got me thinking again (jeez that's good).

"And you?" she said turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what you mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."

First, Galadriel is unfamiliar with the mortal term "magic." As a person with these powers, I think maybe she just refers to them as her own natural ability, her powers. She doesn't have to do any spell chanting, book reading, hand waving, it's just her own power.

But she also distinquishes between her powers, and the powers of the enemy, calling it "deceitful." When we think of the Enemies (Sauron, Saruman, The Ring) all are very deceitful. They try to manipulate, control, twist you, to get you to do what they want. You might say the "lull you into a false sense of security."

Let's look at some "good" magical items. Lembas, Miruvor, Mirror of Galadriel, Elven cloaks, all benefit the person in some way. They aren't trying to be deceitful and trick you, they are trying to give you energy, guidance, camoflage...etc. It's almost as if Galadriel is saying the "the deceits of the enemy" is false, fake, where her own power is genuine and real. The "non-magical" beings categorize Galadriel's power, and Sauron's power the same, but Galadriel doesn't. I just wanted to see what others think of this.

[Mithalwen]

Here I would make a distinction between "superior" technology and magic. I think that most of these things are not regarded as magical by the elves any more than we regard the internet as magical. However Lembas and Niruvor are versions of things originally made in Valinor so it is possible that Galadriel's power was a factor in their production and it is likely she learn't much from Melian. However Galadriel clearly has power in her own right, mighty among the firstborn (cf Gandalf's reference to Glorfindel "Could he storm the road to the fire by the power that is within him?") but is inherent power the same as magic? Clearly there is a form of spell craft available in Middle Earth as can be sen by Gandalf's behaviour at the doors of Moria - and some of it is available to beings of lesser power than Galadriel (eg THranduil).

Interesting questions are raised by the Mirror of Galadriel - this may be a projection of "foresight" but it is not clear whether Galadriel would regard it as magic- though she knows that is how it will seem to the hobbits. Also the Phial - is it a "skill" or a spell that allows her to trap light in a phial of water - the closest thing to matching the capturing of the light of the trees in the Silmarils? And is the power that it gives a transmission of Galadriel's power or a distant protection given by the Valar who will not involve themselves more directly? The light of the stars is the gift of Elbereth and her name, acts as a "spell" for deflecting evil at several points in the story. I will be interested to hear what others think.

[Neithan]

She could also be talking about the difference in elven powers and those of the Maiar, but I think you are on to something. Remember Gollum who was corrupted by the power of the ring and how he reacted when they tied him with elven rope. He said it burned him, appearantly the two types of "magic" don't mix well.
Also I think that some of the things they make are not necessarily made with their power but the power does seem to remain in the items nonetheless

[Mithalwen]

True, but it may have just been an extreme loathing of the elves following his captivity rather than magic per se - lembas stuck in his throat too..

[Neithan]

O.K., so I guess the best example of the "differences in magic" that Borimir was talking about would be the elven rings verses the one ring.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, but I think the difference is in the "intention" perhaps rather than in the fact that Sauron was a Maia and Galadriel an elf ... although there is a spectrum within each category, i would think it is fair to say that most Maiar are more powerful than most elves..

[Neithan]

I wasn't necessarily talking about the differences between Elves and Maiar, when I mentioned that earlier it was just a passing thought, but more about what Boromir said about the differences. The one ring is, like he said, very deceitful. The elven rings, on the other hand, just kept back the weariness of time and gave their owners elemental powers of some kind. I don't think this is really any more "genuine" or "real" than the power of the one ring, but then again the Elves learned to make the rings from Sauron.

[Mithalwen]

There certainly seems to be a theme of personal power being "decanted " into objects or expended. It clearly isn't a constant, inexhaustible source. Sauron needs a long time to recover his strength after being overthrown, Gandalf's energy is depleted by his initial struggle with the Balrog at the Chamber of Marzarbul. However since Sauron never touched the three rings it must surelyhave been Elvish power vested in them? But whose? Celebrimbor as grandson of Feanor would not be least of the Noldor in power or skill but had he enough to strengthen Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf as much as the Three rings seem to have done?

[Neithan]

An interesting point and I should point out that since Celebrimbor was born in Middle Earth (at least I think he was since he was not mentioned in the Sil until long after the Noldor returned in exile) he did not have as much power as he would have had if he beheld the light of the two trees. But I am reminded of a quote by Galadriel, later in the same conversation as the quote that starts of this thread she says,

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?

I always interpreted this as meaning that the rings, rather than giving power that is in themselves, amplify the power of those who wield them. So that Celebrimbor did not have to be that powerful, he just had to be very skilled.

I also remember hearing somewhere that Vilya is the greatest elven ring, I would assume that this means that it amplifies the the power of its user more than the others. Consequently, Elrond is probably nearly as powerful as Galadriel even though she would have the greater personal power. Gandalf of course is far more powerful but he does not use all of it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But she also distinquishes between her powers, and the powers of the enemy, calling it "deceitful."

I posted this quote from Letter #155 (unsent excerpt from letter to Naomi Mitchison dating from September 1954) in the Chapter-by-Chapter discussion of The Mirror of Galadriel, and it is relevant here too:

I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and other show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a psuedo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy.' Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life.'

Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive and evil effects - because 'magicians,' who have become chiefly concerned to use magia for their own power, would do so (do do so). The basic motive for magia - quite apart from any philosophic consideration of how it would work - is immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap between the idea or desire and the result or effect. But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means. Of course another factor then comes in, a moral or pathological: the tyrant lose sight of objects, become cruel, and like smashing, hurting, and defiling as such. It would no doubt be possible to defend poor Lotho's introduction of more efficient mills; but not of Sharkey and Sandyman's use of them.

And, as far as the differences between the magic used by the Enemy and that used by the Powers of Good, I can do little better than repeat the comment that I made in the discussion:

So Tolkien is here saying that both sides use magia, or "physical" magic, and goeteia, or "illusionary" magic. The Girdle of Melian, and perhaps the magic used by Galadriel to protect Lothlorien, might be described as "illusionary", in that it could “deceive or bewilder” mortals. Galadriel's Mirror might be similarly described. It certainly had the potential to deceive or bewilder Sam and Frodo, had Galadriel not been present to guide them. The difference, therefore, is not in the nature of the magic, but in the purpose to which it is put. Sauron and his minions use their magic to pursue dominion, whereas Galadriel's magic, like that of Gandalf, is used for beneficial effect, to guide and inform rather than to coerce, and also to offer hope and invigorate spirit (in the case of the Phial, for example, and also Lembas and Miruvor). Save in the destruction of Dol Guldur, I cannot think of one occasion where Galadriel's magic is used "actively" to command or destroy (and Gandalf only uses his magic in this way in extreme circumstances).

[Neithan]

Magic, I believe, refers always to those things that the speaker does not understand. Therefore the word is used for many different things that are not really related at all. Here I will describe several different forms of "magic" as I see them.

Dwarf: the Dwarves are said to use magic especially when making secret doors. I think that Dwarf magic is nothing more than a type of technology as Mithalwen said earlier.

Ents: the drink that Treebeard gave the hobbits could be said to be magical, but it seems only natural that "tree people" would have such drinks.

Elves: they seem to have great skill in making things: the cloaks, the gems of the Noldor, the Ships of the Teleri, and the Palántiri stones for example. Those Elves who beheld the light of the two trees also had a power within them that repelled evil. Also they could sing songs of power, more on this in a minute.

Tom Bombadil: Tom was one with the land he inhabited, it's life was his. He was master of everything that dwelled in said land and everything he commanded happened.

Valar/Maiar: they shaped the world and their power flowed in every inch of it. Therefore they could, to some extent (depending on their personal power), command the matter of the world. They also sang songs of power.

Music and Magic: Although I can not claim to fully understand how this worked, music had power in Tolkiens world. The foundation of the world was the music of the Ainur, and Sauron had a contest with Finrod using songs of power. And Tom Bombadil used songs of a sort to. There were other examples of course but you get the idea.

This is not a complete list by any means (and you could probably have an entire thread for each type of magic and how they worked) but I was just trying to get the point across that what is referred to as "magic" is not one thing but many different things.

Also, I think that the different kinds of "magic" could be learned by the other races, so that "Dwarf Magic" could be learned by Elves for example. However there are exeptions to this, Tom Bombadil for example. Also there are some things that the Ainur could do that lesser beings could not because they don't have the power required.

[Orophin]

I agree with yo on that one. Magic has more to do with the things that they do not inderstand. With technology they can see how ot works even if they do not like it. Magic is different because they have no idea how it works and can never imagaine themselves being able to do the sam thing themselves.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Neithan

An interesting point and I should point out that since Celebrimbor was born in Middle Earth (at least I think he was since he was not mentioned in the Sil until long after the Noldor returned in exile) he did not have as much power as he would have had if he beheld the light of the two trees. But I am reminded of a quote by Galadriel, later in the same conversation as the quote that starts of this thread she says,

I always interpreted this as meaning that the rings, rather than giving power that is in themselves, amplify the power of those who wield them. So that Celebrimbor did not have to be that powerful, he just had to be very skilled.

I also remember hearing somewhere that Vilya is the greatest elven ring, I would assume that this means that it amplifies the the power of its user more than the others. Consequently, Elrond is probably nearly as powerful as Galadriel even though she would have the greater personal power. Gandalf of course is far more powerful but he does not use all of it.

The Elves invested a great part of their power into these Elven rings, just as Sauron had but since he was Maia, his was more potent, but I assume that it wasn't only Celebrimbor and the smiths who exerted their "elveness" into this rings but pretty much all of the elves though perhaps not conscously but via through prayer & spell to effect on all of the elves who dwelled in ME. This is why that once they were destroyed, the curse of Mandos can no longer be witheld.

[Frodo Baggins]

Curse of Mandos? What curse was that? I have forgotten.

I know not if this helps but while Vilya was "mightiest of the three" Nenya was known as the "Principle" ring. I that that means it was a sort of "leader" among the Three.

[Boromir88]

It's not clear which was the mightiest of the three. LOTR says Vilya, the Sil says Nenya, Lost tales says Narya. Unless Tolkien specifies in one of his letters, which I have not read, which one he means to be the mightiest.

Or...

By saying all three are the mightiest maybe they are all equal?