The Ainur and their physical forms

[Neithan]

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but I searched and didn't find it.
In the Sil it says,

and from the hill of Tuna the Elves had seen [Melkor] pass in wrath as a thundercloud.

If Melkor could take the form of a cloud then why not do so to escape his capture in in the first war? The Ainur it seems could fight with one another no matter what form they took. This, however, brings up another question how did Tulkas, appearantly the lowest ranking Vala, defeat Melkor, the most powerful. It is said that Tulkas had the greatest physical strength. This suggests that no matter what form they took, or indeed if they took no form at all, they would always have the same physical strength, and that this strength was independent of their power.

O.K., but how did the chain hold him? It could have had some "magical" property that kept Melkor from changing form, and I might say that that was the case if it were not for another example:

Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly...and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: "There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower."

The Ainur, appearently, could not leave their physical forms while something was restraining them without their "body" being destroyed.

Lastly, we now that the Balrogs had become incarnate in their forms and so coud not change their forms to escape from falling, but what about Sauron? In the Sil it says that he changed into a vampire and flew away after his match with Huan. So why didn't he change into a flying creature during the destruction of Numenore and escape? It specifically says that he lost the ability to change into whatever he wanted after his body was destroyed in the destruction of Numenore. This one is a little harder to figure out. I seem to remember reading somewhere in one of the other books that, in one version of Tolkiens stories, only Manwe and Varda could fly, and that Melkor was jealous of them for this. So maybe the problem comes from the Sil being taken from so many different sources.

I am interested to see what everyone thinks of my theories.

[Lalwendë]

Most odd. I was reading some Blake and the quote used by Neithan reminded me strongly of the images from his work

Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly...and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: "There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower."

This last sentence in particular is very biblical, symbolic and vivid. And as to the question of the chains used to bind Melkor - could these be metaphysical chains? Indeed, could they be "mind-forg'd manacles"? Blake used the image of metaphysical, moral and political chains throughout his work; The Marriage of Heaven and Hell includes this line which struck me in particular:

The Giants who formed this world into its sensual existence and now seem to live in it in chains, are in truth the causes of its life & the sources of all activity, but the chains are the cunning of weak and tame minds which have power to resist energy, according to the proverb, the weak in courage is strong in cunning

Chains do not have to be purely physical, they can take many forms, and the chaining of Melkor's spirit would have needed something very different to the metal chain we would normally think of; it is a very striking and effective image however.

[Boromir88]

A wonderful answer Lal, there's one part of the quote that also catches my attention...

the chains are the cunning of weak and tame minds which have power to resist energy

When we think of actual, physical chains, somebody literally "chained" up to the wall, yes chains do resist energy. The chained person can, rip, tear, thrash, wiggle, all they want, if the chains are strong enough it will "resist" that energy and hold that person.

Chains do not have to be purely physical, they can take many forms, and the chaining of Melkor's spirit would have needed something very different to the metal chain we would normally think of

So then whatever form of a chain that held Melkor, it was able to resist his power.

[Morsul the Dark]

Lastly, we now that the Balrogs had become incarnate in their forms and so coud not change their forms to escape from falling, but what about Sauron? In the Sil it says that he changed into a vampire and flew away after his match with Huan. So why didn't he change into a flying creature during the destruction of Numenore and escape?

I believe this has more to do with the fact, and I have no quotes ready so bear with me. Although Middle-Earth is a fantasy world Tolkien kept it very realistic. The Mariner(name escapes me) who listened to these tales at the cottage of lost play was a man and the elves were in my opinion reprenting classical cultures Romans and Greeks and such who made these myths to explain nature and even those stories based on real people were blown out of proportion I believe this was part of Tolkien's layering, if you will, of history into these books the story passed on orally grows each time until eventually its is hard to explain why something happens one way in a story and another way in actuality

[Neithan]

So then whatever form of a chain that held Melkor, it was able to resist his power.

Point taken, but what about about Sauron, if the Ainur's physical forms were no more important than clothing than why would he not be able to build a new body after forsaking that one? He was not, at that time, bound to his body.

[Neithan]

I was thinking, the chain Angainor was made by Aule and I don't think he would be able to make something that could contain Melkor's power. However, since Tulkas could overcome Melkor with physical strength, it is very easy to imagine that Tulkas could make a physical chain that could bind Melkor physically.

This is probably the most interesting and important point that I was trying to get at here. The difference between the physical strength and the power of the Ainur. As I see it, they are completely independent of one another, and of what form the Ainu chooses to take. Presumably then a Vala, say Tulkas for example, could take the form an ordinary hobbit and still have all of his legendary strength.


Edit: I meant that it would be easy to imagine that Aule could make such a chain, Tulkas obviously has no skill in that area

[Fingolfin II]

Neithan said:

I was thinking, the chain Angainor was made by Aule and I don't think he would be able to make something that could contain Melkor's power. However, since Tulkas could overcome Melkor with physical strength, it is very easy to imagine that Tulkas could make a physical chain that could bind Melkor physically.

I agree and disagree with this. Aule couldn't contain Melkor's power, but physical strength differs from this. I mean, Mandos wasn't the strongest or most powerful Vala, yet no one (in Ea) could escape from his halls, regardless of their innate strength or power.

Aule was the greatest smith in Arda, so out of all the Valar, he'd be best equipped to make a chain that could contain Morgoth physically. Just because Tulkas can beat him with physical strength in a wrestling match, it doesn't mean that he can make an inanimate chain to contain his strength, which would rival Aule's. Welcome to the Downs, by the way .

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that the Ainur themselves have some restrictions, when they are embodied.
In the case of Sauron being hold by Huan, we see that Sauron could not change his shape in the way, that he can escape. He can change his body, but in exact the same location, so that Huan can hold him still. Not until his body was destroyed (or dead), the mere spirit can go, wherever he wants.
What then happens, we can see it in the Fall of Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance.
Sauron could be slayn, and he was slayn by Gil-galad and Elendil. His body was dead and his naked spirit escaped, so that Isildur could cut the Ring from his finger. The Ring is not a part of the spirit of Sauron.
Sauron needed thousands of years to reembody himself totally, without the Ring his power was diminished, that could be the reason, why he took so long. After the Fall of Numenor he needed not so long, the Ring was there in Barad-dur.
Another case, from which we can conclude some details is the case of his holding in the 'hands' of Huan. Sauron has a great fear losing his body and going naked to Melkor. I conclude herefrom, that Sauron could not reembody himself directly, because Luthien said, he shall endure the torments of his master everlastingly. 'Everlastingly' seems to me a little bit exaggerated, we know, that he could reembody himself at any time.
We can extract from all above, that in spite of the possibility of changing the shape, an embodied Maia could not leave the body, when he is hold by someone. What exactly happens, when a Maia leaves his body, I don't know, because there is no quote concerning this. He can change his shape, but he cannot escape through the mere changing.
When the body dies, the spirit can leave the body, but cannot reembody itself directly. Reembodying is apparently dependent how much power the spirit has.

Coming to the different shape a Maia (representive for Ainur) can have. Maia have a gender. I don't know a case, where an Ainu choose a body of the other gender. Apparently there is a restriction, that a Maia can embody himself only with shapes of his own gender. The gender is anchored in the spirit of the Maia and influenced apparently the physical form. An attribute. But surely there are other attributes, which are fixed in the spirit. Attributes, which have effects of the physical forms they can choose. I think, that the body of the Maia is mirroring his spirit. We see this in the changing of Sauron's shapes in the 'hands' of Huan.
The physical form of a Maia is consquently a vague image of the spirit.
But it is also possible, that the attributes change, so that a Maia can (must) take other shapes as earlier. We see this in Morgoth and Sauron. Both had a beautiful shape, but with doing continously evil deeds, they are shaped in dark form.
After the Downfall of Numenor, Sauron could not take a beautiful shape again, he lost his shape in the Sinking of Numenor. I interpret this passage in the following way: the Downfall of Numenor, for which Sauron is responsible, the measure of his evil deeds was so high, that 'his spirit' was so foul, that he could not take another form as a 'Dark Lord'.
Some may think, that he did very many deeds already earlier, why he lost the possibility of a beautiful shape so late. There are two possibilities:

#1 His body died, so that his new body cannot have a beautiful form. The new attributes can only be implemented after a maltreatment of the body. The thesis could be supported by the fact, that Melkor's hands are for forever black, after his hands were burned by the Silmaril. In both cases, the maltreatment is the bill for the evil deeds.

#2 The measure his very high. Melkor could live in Valinor in his beautiful shape, although he has many evil deeds behind him, including his most evil deed: the creation of the race of Orcs (supposed they came from Elves).

Maybe it is a combination of both.

I come to the Balrogs. Balrogs are Maiar, which came into the service of Melkor. They became demons of fire. Apparently they could not change their body, nor leave it. The one Balrog, of which we know, that he lives in the Third Age, has not changed his form after that really long time. I think that these Maiar are bound to the flesh. And there is the connection to something over what, we know more: the Istari.
It is (at least) for the Valar possible to bound a Maia to a body and to enjoin them the restrictions of the flesh. We know, that the power of the Istari was also diminshed, because they wanted only a passive supporting of the free peoples of Middle-earth against Sauron.
My theory is, that if it has been possible for the Valar to bound a spirit to the flesh, it would be also possible for Melkor to bound the Valaraukar to the flesh. But in this case the power of them wasn't diminshed, maybe increased through subcreation from Melkor.
Melkor used them as warriors. The slaying of a Balrog would be the escaping of the spirit from the body, but without chance to rebuild the body or getting again the power (only through the creator). I conclude this through a comment of Gandalf (I don't find it at the moment), that Saruman is nothing more like Sauron. A mere spirit in the wilderness.

Looking now to the chain, which Melkor enchained, I would say, that it is possible to forge a chain, which can hold the physical form of Melkor enchained. Huan get it with Sauron, why could not Aule forge a chain, which is mighty enough to hold Melkor. The chain must only resist the changing of a shape (that this is possible, we see in Huan) and resist the destroying through the power of Melkor (he lost much with subcreation). We know, that leaving the physical form is not possible, when the person is in a form enchained.

[HerenIstarion]

Some interesting stuff to take a look at:

From Osanwe-Kenta

Here Pengoloð adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengoloð also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.

'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengoloð here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Excellent post, Mr Brandybuck.

And many thanks for that quote, HI. Most interesting. I do have one question arising from it, though. If Maiar become bound to their hröar through indulgence in physical pleasures (eating, drinking, begetting etc), does that mean that Melian and Gandalf (and any other of the Istari that may have returned) remained bound to their physical form on their return to Aman? Or, once back in the Undying Lands, could they relinquish their physical form and once again assume "spiritual" form?

Actually, one more question. Am I correct in understanding that a Maia bound to his or her hröar could still assume a different form? This appears to have been the case with Sauron, who became "wedded to the form of his evil deeds" following the drowning of Numenor, but still seems to have been able to change form. It is said that he was unable thereafter to assume fair form, but this implies that he was still able to assume any non-fair form that he wished.

[Child of the 7th Age]

If Maiar become bound to their hröar through indulgence in physical pleasures (eating, drinking, begetting etc), does that mean that Melian and Gandalf (and any other of the Istari that may have returned) remained bound to their physical form on their return to Aman? Or, once back in the Undying Lands, could they relinquish their physical form and once again assume "spiritual" form?

SpM - Speaking directly to the question you've raised.... Yes, I've read that quote from osanwe before, but have always felt that "being trapped" was a danger upon misuse of the form, rather than something inherent to the form itself.

HI's own osanwe quote suggests that the problem stems from abuse:

Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body.

Other writings suggests that the ability to take on a carnate form was a "natural" ability of a Maia and should not prevent him or her from ultimately transitioning back to the original form. Presumably, the only danger would come in the "abuse" of that form. Remember that in the early years many of the Valar and Maier frequently came among the Elves in Elvish forms and went back to Aman, although the Elves did not know that.

UT says this:

The Maiar were 'spirits', but capable of self-incarnation, and could take 'humane' (especially elvish) forms.

The converse, it would seem, should also hold true. If there had been any inherent danger of not being able to shift back, Tolkien would have mentioned that in the section on the Istari in UT. He does discuss other dangers the Istari would face. They are told that the change to carnate form "would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."(p. 393). But he doesn't suggest they'll never be able to "come home".

If the Istari had been told they would be trapped forever in a carnate body merely because they had eaten a meal or enjoyed a pint of ale, I doubt they would have agreed to come. And surely Manwe would not withold such an important piece of information from them, if it was true.

I do wonder if the fact that Gandalf could so easily communicate by osanwe suggests that his mind was still open and confirms that he had not fallen prey to the abuse of the body the essay suggests is possible. the essay speaks of the communications of the Valar having the "highest authority" and "greatest urgency". Those are exactly the kind of phrases that comes to mind when I think of Frodo's long-distance warning from Gandalf. So perhaps this is proof of the fact that Gandalf's body is just a covering and he is still a true Valar inside.

***************

Regarding changing of forms. I've always been under the impression that Radagast who is actually termed a "shapeshifter" at one point did still retain that ability in Middle-earth.

[Neithan]

Apparently there is a restriction, that a Maia can embody himself only with shapes of his own gender. The gender is anchored in the spirit of the Maia and influenced apparently the physical form. An attribute. But surely there are other attributes, which are fixed in the spirit. Attributes, which have effects of the physical forms they can choose. I think, that the body of the Maia is mirroring his spirit. We see this in the changing of Sauron's shapes in the 'hands' of Huan.

Tolkien compares the genders of the Valar and Maiar's hroar to the different clothing of men and women and he says that their gender was "bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice." To me this implies that they could have taken the hroar of the opposite sex, but I am sure that it would have had just as much, if not more, social stigma as cross-dressing has for us.
And as for the hroa mirroring the fea, I think that it did, but that if they wanted to the Ainur could choose a decietful hroa, that is they could appear fair when they are really evil.

After the Downfall of Numenor, Sauron could not take a beautiful shape again, he lost his shape in the Sinking of Numenor. I interpret this passage in the following way: the Downfall of Numenor, for which Sauron is responsible, the measure of his evil deeds was so high, that 'his spirit' was so foul, that he could not take another form as a 'Dark Lord'.

I had a somewhat different interpretation, because Sauron's hroa was destroyed he was weakened and could no longer assume a hroa that was different in nature from himself. Therefore because he was himself dark and terrible his physical form had to reflect that.

If Maiar become bound to their hröar through indulgence in physical pleasures (eating, drinking, begetting etc), does that mean that Melian and Gandalf (and any other of the Istari that may have returned) remained bound to their physical form on their return to Aman?

Actually Child of the 7th Age posted his reply just after I had decided what to answer to this question, and I agree with everything he said, other than the typo where he called Gandalf a Vala, but I would add that since Gandalf had already lost his hroa and come back in a more powerful form it would be hard to imagine that he could not exit it, and I am quite sure that Melian was not trapped in her hroa either.

Actually, one more question. Am I correct in understanding that a Maia bound to his or her hröar could still assume a different form?

I don't think so, at least not normally. Sauron may have been a special case since he had put so much of his power into the ring and he was powerful to begin with, but I still don't think that he could shape shift as he used to.

[obloquy]

I was unaware that discussions of this topic were allowed without my participation.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Child

SpM - Speaking directly to the question you've raised.... Yes, I've read that quote from osanwe before, but have always felt that "being trapped" was a danger upon misuse of the form, rather than something inherent to the form itself.

But the first paragraph of the quote that HerenIstarion gives suggests that the spirit may become tied to the body without it being misused (in the sense of being used for evil):

It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengoloð also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa.

It seems that the spirit may become inextricably tied to the hröa simply through the necessities of sustaining it over a prolonged period of time. My quesion is whether, in light of this, the likes of Gandalf and Melian would have been able voluntarily to leave their bodies once they returned to Aman (and Melian, after all, conceived a child - which is said in that passage to be the most binding of all acts).

Originally Posted by Child

If the Istari had been told they would be trapped forever in a carnate body merely because they had eaten a meal or enjoyed a pint of ale, I doubt they would have agreed to come. And surely Manwe would not withold such an important piece of information from them, if it was true.

I agree that Manwe would have warned them, and it is quite possible that he did. But perhaps it was a sacrifice that they were prepared to make (or risk having to make) in order to "save" the peoples of Middle-earth from Sauron's menace. After all, they were not prevented from returning to Aman (unless, like Saruman, they strayed from the path). They would simply have to do so in bodily form, and the Elves who dwelt there (outside Mandos' Halls) were perfectly content to do so in such form.

Or perhaps the hröa would fade over time (dependent on the extent to which they indulged in "earthly pleasures"), allowing them evetually to return to a wholly spirit-ual existence.

In any event, if Gandalf got stuck with his physical body, I would put the blame squarely on all that pipweed he smoked.

Originally Posted by Neithan

I don't think so, at least not normally. Sauron may have been a special case since he had put so much of his power into the ring and he was powerful to begin with, but I still don't think that he could shape shift as he used to.

But the fact that he could no longer take fair form certainly implies, to me at least, that he could take other forms. And why should he have been any different from other Maiar?

To be honest, I am looking for a solution here to the Balrog wing debate. If, despite being tied to their bodies, they were still able to shape-shift, then a Balrog could have wings - or not - depending on how he felt that day.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I was unaware that discussions of this topic were allowed without my participation.

So participate.

[Neithan]

They would simply have to do so in bodily form, and the Elves who dwelt there (outside Mandos' Halls) were perfectly content to do so in such form.

I still think that because of the Istari's special circumstances they would not be bound to their forms after they came back to Valinor.

But the fact that he could no longer take fair form certainly implies, to me at least, that he could take other forms.

Not necessarily, it could just mean that when he was taking physical form again after being destroyed the form he took could not be fair. Also in the quote provided by HerenIstarion it says,

"It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. (italics mine)

So you see when a Maia was bound to a hröa they were bound to one specific hröa. As for the Balrogs, if they could still shift shape then I am sure they would have done so to escape falling to their deaths.

And why should he have been any different from other Maiar?

Well, since he put a large portion of his power into the one ring, that power stayed intact when his hröa was destroyed. This, I believe, is the only reason he was able to come back the last time. If the ring allowed him to come back, then it could have allowed him to shape shift as well, but personally, I don't think so.

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

To be honest, I am looking for a solution here to the Balrog wing debate. If, despite being tied to their bodies, they were still able to shape-shift, then a Balrog could have wings - or not - depending on how he felt that day.

Not if the Balrogs have been similar to the Istari. The Istari were bound to the flesh to serve one purpose: helping the free peoples of Middle-earth against Sauron.
Melkor could have made the same thing with the Balrogs. He bound them to the flesh, so that they could serve them as warriors. With one difference, he diminished not their power like the Valar did with the Istari.
If there has been a connection between both partys (we don't know for sure, it is just a thesis), the Balrogs are not able to shape-shift.

And I agree here with Neithan: if they could still shift shape then I am sure they would have done so to escape falling to their deaths.

[obloquy]

The Valar did not diminish the Istari's power. They gave them rules.

Also, I would like to point out that Tolkien creates a distinction between an eala being clothed and one being incarnate. Ealar could evidently take shape and discard it without much consequence; that is, until they began to use that corporeal form for actions that were especially tied to being a physical...being. As has already been mentioned, eating, conceiving, etc. A lot of the shifting of shapes was done fairly early in the history of Middle-earth, and we can presume that it was possible because those ealar had not become so bound to their forms as to be unable to change them, or suffer consequences for abandoning them. That an eala can voluntarily abandon its fully incarnate form is evidenced by Melian's return to Aman after Thingol's death.

Here's some more crap by me. I've written a lot on the subject, actually, so a search for "obloquy" would likely yield every thread on the Downs with embodiment and such as its topic.

[obloquy]

Well, since he put a large portion of his power into the one ring, that power stayed intact when his hröa was destroyed. This, I believe, is the only reason he was able to come back the last time. If the ring allowed him to come back, then it could have allowed him to shape shift as well, but personally, I don't think so.

You're mostly on target here. That's exactly why destroying the Ring was the only way to defeat Sauron. The Ring was why Sauron could survive the death of his body once he had become wholly incarnate. Dying as an Incarnate, such as Morgoth did in one version of the mythology (which happens to be the latest version, if I'm not mistaken, as it is included in Myths Transformed, MR), renders the eala (an originally disembodied spirit) utterly impotent and essentially "dead" in the same sense as innately incarnate beings (Men, Elves, Dwarves) died. So this Ring-as-anchor concept only affects Sauron's spiritual persistence, and does not mitigate his status as incarnate; this status being what allows or disallows the act of shape-changing. Therefore on your second point, I would disagree.

Also, it's notable that Sauron was not completely exempt from the negative effects of dying as an incarnate, even with the Ring's support. He still took quite a while to fashion new forms for himself, and he could not hide the evil tendencies of his spirit in his outward appearance.

[Neithan]

All right obloquy since you are such and expert on the subject then what is your opinion on the chain and the physical vs. spiritual power discussion. Why was Sauron, who was not yet bound to his hröa not able to abandon it to escape Huan without consequences.

[obloquy]

Because when these beings physically "arrest" one another, there's a lot more going on than is visible. There's a whole "spiritual plane" where the real struggle occurs. Sauron's spirit was vying with Huan's; Melkor's with Tulkas'. When Melkor was bound, he was bound by a power that had mastered him, whether there was a physical manifestation of the "chain" or not.

[Neithan]

So then their spirits have physical strength too? Because Tulkas definately won by using physical strength. But as long as their physical strength mattered in the "spiritual plane" then I can see your point.

[obloquy]

I'm actually having a bit of trouble answering your questions on this because I do not have access to my books. I am rusty, and cannot recall where Melkor's capture falls in the timeline. I am tempted, though, to say that Melkor had already been significantly weakened in spirit (which was directly connected to his increasing incarnation), and was perhaps now not so impervious as he once was.

Spirits do not have physical strength: that is a contradiction. However, they can affect the physical realm when they are arrayed with a carnate form. The potency of their spirit then translates to the strength of their corporeal manifestation. Basically, ealar are a Consciousness and a Will: their "power" is the degree to which they can impose their will or compell/affect the world around them, whether it is spiritual or physical. In Tolkien's world, when an Incarnate dies, it is fairly ultimate, although they are not entirely wiped from existence. Where that remnant of spirit goes is a different topic, but it is effectively impotent. When an eala is clothed with a raiment, it maintains its eala nature while having a physical presence. When an eala has become incarnate--and this happens by degrees--due to indulgence in activities meant for Incarnates, that connection to the spiritual realm is dampened and eventually their existence on that plane is minimal, as that of the Children is. Elves are, as indicated by Gandalf's elucidation of what Frodo witnessed at the Ford, apparently more at a balance between the two planes than Men. I have postulated elsewhere that involuntary incarnation (Balrogs, Morgoth, Sauron), while bringing similar limitations and drawbacks, seems to be more irrevocably binding than voluntary incarnation (Istari, Melian) and perhaps this is due to the grace of the Powers, which is not extended to those who have trapped themselves through their own selfish indulgence.

[Neithan]

The potency of their spirit then translates to the strength of their corporeal manifestation.

I had assumed this was the case as well, until this quote came to my attention.

Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas ... for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless.

Tulkas is clearly portrayed as having the greatest physical prowess, but when Tolkien lists the Valar "in due order" he puts Tulkas last.
In fact as this quote is what prompted me to start this thread in the first place I probably should have posted it earlier.

I'm actually having a bit of trouble answering your questions on this because I do not have access to my books. I am rusty, and cannot recall where Melkor's capture falls in the timeline. I am tempted, though, to say that Melkor had already been significantly weakened in spirit (which was directly connected to his increasing incarnation), and was perhaps now not so impervious as he once was.

He was captured the first time just after the Elves awakened. After he was released he could still assume fair form, and I think he still had most of his power. At any rate he was definately not incarnate yet. And he was still referred to as "the mightest of all the dwellers in Eä" well after this happened.

[obloquy]

Are you sure that "in due order" doesn't refer to the order in which they were given stations as Valar? Tolkien in one place makes reference to Manwe and Melkor being "coeval", so he apparently attributes weight to the relative age of a Vala. Tulkas is the "youngest" Vala, but he certainly wasn't the least powerful of them all.

Tolkien wrote that all of the Valar combined could not master Melkor in his original state. Either Tolkien didn't include Tulkas in this estimation, or Melkor had already become greatly diminished by the time Tulkas captured him. If the former is true and not the latter, then we have to attribute the greatest power of all the remaining Valar to Tulkas. Remember that much of the dissemination of Melkor's power was in the creation/corruption of the created world, so he had already become diminished from his original greatness. This is why Tolkien refers to all of Arda as "Morgoth's Ring".

[Neithan]

All right, I concede the point, Tulkas was greatest of the Valar in terms of "power" and that is why he could take the greatest hröa. I will point out though that Tulkas is not listed among the 8 chiefs of the Valar, and I don't think that it is because he came late (he could have been added to the list, just as Melkor was taken off it). I think that his low rank had more to do with his lack of knowledge and wisdom.
So then is Huan's spirit greater than Sauron's? Somehow I don't think so, my theory then is that Huan won the fight because it was his fate to live and to fight the other wolf (Melians power could not keep Beren out of Doriath because of his fate).