Providence in LOTR?

[Greyhame]

While ruminating upon the content of my last post (in the "elucidation of truth" thread), I was reminded of what I feel to be the key concept which makes it possible to consider LOTR as a decidedly Christian (albeit implicitly rather than explicitly) work.

Themes such as sacrifice, compassion, redemption, and community are all prevalent in LOTR, but these simple virtues are extolled in virtually every major religion and/or belief system. However, there is a very real, almost tangible sense of divine guidance or providence woven seamlessly into the story. Here is the point of departure for me, for it seems to me as if the Judeo-Christian worldview is unique in its portrayal of a higher power Who still has a vested interest in and therefore an active role in the affairs of His creation.

Of course, we know that Tolkien was Catholic, but what are everyone else's thoughts on the prominence and importance of providence in his writing?

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail and Well Met Greyhame,

* bows a greeting *

Thank you for starting such a fascinating topic. At the moment, time permits only a short answer, however, I hope to return with more.

What comes immediately to my mind on thinking of providence in Middle Earth is how often eagles swoop in and save the day when it appears all other hope is lost.

Relevant quotes from the Bible:

"I have carried you on eagles' wings, and brought you here to me." (Exodus 19:4)

"But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with 'wings as eagles', they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." (Isa. 40:31)

Gandalf the Grey

[GreatWarg]

A star shines on the day of our meeting Greyhame. Enjoy being dead! I look forward to seeing you post a lot!

Well, let's see. There are actually very few hints in the books that signal that Tolkien is catholic, or at least religious, aside from few pointers, such as:

Lor' bless you, sir
-Samwise Gamgee

Aside from these, I believe that tolkien didn't use religion as an inspiration for the books.

[Raefindel]

Good point Gandalf.

Welcome,Greyhame.

I agree with you, but find it odd that Tolkien chose to write it the way he did. He created a world where Judeo-Christian befliefs did not exist and studied and modeled it after cultures where said Judeo-Christian beliefs did not exist. Why would he do that?

I guess if you truly believe something it is such a part of you it comes out whether you intend it to or not.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I don't think the concept of divine providence could be explicitly limited to the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Islam also has this concept. My brother-in-law is a devout Sufi, a mystical branch of Islam, and he and I have had extended discussions about the interplay of free will and divine providence.

This interplay of free will and divine providence is at least implied in the Lord of the Rings. The most obvious examples.....We certainly know Frodo was free to turn down the Ring quest, and that, in the end, divine providence, vis a vis Gollum and the whole theme of pity and mercy, played an important role.

The balance or interplay between these two concepts is so difficult to sort out, both in Tolkien and real life. I have actually found it helpful, even in real life (!), to symbolize this in terms of the Music of Creation (an idea that has ancient, mythic roots). The Music itself was played at Creation, but, in Tolkien, the role of Man is not totally within the purview of that music. He or she has free will to determine personal behavior and choice and presumably to affect themes within the Music.

But I still find those two ideas difficult to reconcile in my head, at least intellectually. I run into problems when considering the orgins of evil, especially instances of horrendous evil like Morgoth in Tolkien or the Holocaust in the "real" world. I would call both of these evils that mar the actual soul of Arda or Earth. I wonder if Tolkien ever found these two concepts--free will and providence-- pulling in different directions in his story?

Raefindel -- Tolkien said quite strongly in his Letters that a mythlogy should be pre-Christian. That is one of the reasons he did not find the Arthurian legends a satisfactory base of myth for his native country.

He also says in his Letters that these were ages when the main religious act was resistence to incarnate evil, rather than worship of any being. Indeed, the latter had been corrupted in Numenor when Melkor set up Temples in the city for Men to worship him. There had been a mountain in Numenor where Men went to privately and sometimes publicly worship not the Valar, but Eru. But all this was swept away, of course.

As a Catholic, Tolkien was probably uncomfortable with depicting anything that could be taken as worship of the Valar, even though there are moments in the books when the Elves and Hobbits call upon Varda and other figures.

Even so, I have always felt something was missing from the book. It is hard for me to imagine a traditional society such as the Shire with no practice of religion other than "good ethics" and resistence to evil.

The only explicitly religious worship in the book is the scene with Faramir where his men stand in a moment of silence before eating. When Frodo questions this, Faramir explains that they do this to "look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be." LotR, 661 I always found Frodo's response touching. When Faramir asked him "Have you no such custom at meat?", he replied "no" but felt "strangely rustic and untutored." He went on to explain that, as guests, Hobbits bow politely to their hosts and thank them. This is so typical of the best hobbits --a deep concern and politeness for others, and an instinctive searching for more than that--visions and Elves and the light--but no concrete models of religion in their own society.

Towards the end of his life, Tolkien seemed to be pushing out the boundaries on this and questioning whether something more explicit was needed. There are hints of this in osanwe-kenta, one of the essays in Mortgoth's Ring where an Elf and a wise old woman discuss the possibility of Eru coming in to the world to heal it, and some of the notes in The Road Goes Ever On. Lindil, who works on the Silmarillion canon, knows a lot about this later writing and would like to see it incorporated into a revised Silm. I find myself very sympathetic to this, although it is not "canon".

If you want more on this, pull up the osanwe-kenta thread, especially near the end.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Kuruharan]

The balance or interplay between these two concepts is so difficult to sort out, both in Tolkien and real life.

But I still find those two ideas difficult to reconcile in my head, at least intellectually.

The two are undoubtedly tightly interwoven in the fabric of 'things.' There may be something of a dialectic between the two.

Unfortunately, the hard part of that is how do you have a dialectic between something that happened in the far past, and what is happening here and now. Although, as I understand it, the Music happened outside of Time and perhaps that makes some difference in the matter.

Alas! It falls beyond the scope of us mere mortals to understand such things.

one of the essays in Mortgoth's Ring where an Elf and a wise old woman discuss the possibility of Eru coming in to the world to heal it

An elf indeed! It was no less a personage than Finrod Felegund, who happens to be one of my favorite characters. And I'm here to make sure he's afforded the respect he deserves, by Crackey! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Kuuharan -- My apologies. Both of the characters in this essay are among my favorites. Yes, the Elf was definitely Finrod. And the wise woman was Andreth.

Tolkien has few female portrayals of this type -- the older woman who has been through a lot and learned something as well but with considerable sadness. This archetype of the wise woman is present in many fantasy tales and folklore, yet less common in Tolkien. The discussion of the failed relationship she had with Finrod's brother is so poignant.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[The Silver-shod Muse]

In Christianity, I believe this providence is called the Holy Spirit and is accepted into the Christian's being.

Because our window onto Tolkien's pre-Christian England reveals a time long before Jesus Christ's sacrifice, there would not be such a thing as the Holy Spirit, or God's will living in man. However, as in the Old Testament of the Bible, we do see a distict will or force that moves seperate of the peoples of ME. In this way we can say that, as far as Tolkien's works go, free will was nearly absolute and isolated from Eru's.

The fact that special places of worship were set up so that men could go to honor and praise Eru is also indicative of the time period. From the time of Christ's death onward Christians have no need of meeting in a particular place to speak to God, for God is with us already.

I was not aware that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) had a "spirit" similar to Christianity's, but I am interested to hear more on this, Child.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I was not aware that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) had a "spirit" similar to Christianity's but I am interested to hear more on this, Child.

Silvershod Muse --

I do know from personal experience that the concept of providence is absolutely central to traditional Judaism. However, we do not have the term or concept of Holy Spirit as Christianity does.

Divine providence is called "hashgakha pratit" in Hebrew. A more popular word in Yiddish than you may have hard of from Hollywood movies is that of "Bashert" which means "fated." It really means the same thing. When a young man or woman begin to search for their life partner, they are said to be looking for their "bashert."

A popular orthodox proverb even says "Not a grain of sand moves from its place on the beach except by divine fiat." Most traditional Jews would probably say that, in reality, this statement is a bit strong, especially given the doctrine of free will.
But, at the same time, they would agree, based on the example of the Torah, that there are times when God acts in this world.

I know less about Islam, but my Sufi brother-in-law assures me that they, too, have similar concepts.

The difficulty with providence, whether you are talking about Tolkien or "real life", is how to balance this with the concept of free will as well as with the existence of evil. Since this is a Tolkien board, I'll confine my comments to that.

Even in Tolkien, the interplay of the two is challenging. Frodo is given the freedom to accept or reject his task. Similarly, he is given the freedom to grant "mercy" to Gollum or not. So the act of providence which occurs at the end could not have happened without his assent and cooperation. But, by the same token, given the interplay of good and evil in us all, he could not have succeeded without that providence.

That is just one of many instances you could debate and scratch your head over. The very existence of Morgoth, the toleration of his acts and of the marring of Arda, is another.
Wiser heads than I could do a better job explaining this. My crew are pleading for their dinner so must go.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Thank you Child. That was a very thought-provoking answer, and much appreciated. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Even in Tolkien, the interplay of the two is challenging. Frodo is given the freedom to accept or reject his task. Similarly, he is given the freedom to grant "mercy" to Gollum or not. So the act of providence which occurs at the end could not have happened without his assent and cooperation.

I agree.

[Mithadan]

It seems appropriate for me to reiterate here my view of the role which "fate" plays in Tolkien's Legendarium. In the Ainulindale, the Ainur are given a great theme to play in music before Eru. The Theme requires the Ainur to make their music in a symphonic fashion rather then alone or few together, but the Ainur may weave their own details and thoughts into the Music. Melkor (Morgoth) disrupts the first Theme, which is then followed by a second and a third. Eru then shows the Ainur of vision of what their Music has portrayed in the form of the unfolding of Arda's history. Like the Music, the vision is ended early, perhaps prior to the coming of the Elves and the later arrival of Man (Elves and Men were the subject of the third Theme). The Music is then given substance and the Ainur are allowed to chose to enter it and many do. But most of the Ainur are only aware of the Music they played themselves rather than the entire Themes (the exceptions being Manwe and Mandos).

The world unfolds per the Music, including the disruption of Melkor. Thus the Music created streams of events which were fated to occur or at least the beginnings of such streams of "fate". However, the Music consisted of broad brush strokes. The "details" are free will as to the Valar and the Elves and, of course, the Music and the Vision ended early so that much history was not "set".

Men were given the "gift" of free will and the desire to seek beyond the bounds of Arda. But the Valar and Elves remained bound up in the the "streams of fate" created by the Music. This is not to say that everything was preordained but rather that certain courses were set from the start and other courses became set as the Valar and Elves acted within the world. When men acted on their own without contact or influence of the Valar and the Elves, their actions were governed wholly by free will. But when men interacted with Elves and the Valar, their actions could be caught up in the streams of fate. To an extent this was inevitable so long as Elves and Ainur (including Morgoth, Sauron and the Istari) remained in Middle Earth. This explains the significance of the end of the Third Age and the coming of the time of men, for at that time the streams of fate loosen their hold on Arda and free will governs events. This also explains why Gandalf and the Elves "must" depart; their time is over and Arda must be relinquished to the free will of men. Even then there exists a limit upon the effect of man's free will because the stuff of Arda itself were created as a result of the Music.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Mithadan -- This is a beautiful and clear explanation which helps a great deal in understanding the stories. You have both insight and knowledge.

But I still wonder......(to anyone out there who can help).

The Elves and Valar may not go beyond the Music, and may not alter the events as they are outlined. This is actually very much like the traditional northern epics where fate or doom controls all. The brave hero of the Norse or Icelandic poems, for example, fights on, even though he knows that Fate says he will fail.

But don't Elves also have free will to make individual choices in their own lives, to choose to follow light or darkness, to at least control their attitudes and individual responses even if they can not control events? This is different from the ancient sagas where some characters seem to be wholly doomed to follow a certain path from the moment they are born.

Secondly, did Eru make a "mistake" in the way he laid out his plan? Because the Valar had no part in the creation of Men and Elves, they don't seem to fully understand them and their needs. This seems particularly critical in terms of the Elves whose whole destiny is controlled by fate. Eru put forward the Music, but then called on the Valar to elaborate on it and help make it a Great Music. But how can the Valar do this wisely when each only knows his own part, and they know so little about the destiny and nature of Elves? (This problem doesn't arise in Bereishiet--Genesis--because the Valar or angels are not subcreators.)

The Valar, except for Melkor, have good intentions, but sometimes their lack of knowledge leads, perhaps, to bad results. For example, they debate whether the Elves should stay in Middle-earth. A few say the Elves should be free to live there as they please. But the majority are so concerned with protecting them that they summon them back to the safety of Valinor to live under the light of the Trees. The Silm says "from this summons came many woes that afterwards befell." I think that is an understatement given the later history.

I wish I could explain this more clearly, but maybe if Eru had helped the Valar to truly understand the Elves, they would have made a different decision by leaving them free. And the later history would not have been so tortured. So did Eru make a mistake in laying out the ground rules that would govern providence, the elboration of the Music, and the role of the Valar in this process?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[piosenniel]

Mithadan thanks for your clear posting on this subject.

Child:

But don't Elves also have free will to make individual choices in their own lives, to choose to follow light or darkness, to at least control their attitudes and individual responses even if they can not control events?

I was wondering about the Peredhil - were they only 'granted' the right to make a choice to step outside the course set for the Elves. Could they have stepped outside the 'streams of fate' of their own accord because they were of the race of Men also?

[mark12_30]

In terms of mistakes: I always remember Eru's response to Melkor, which I can't quote but ran essentially, You will see that what you meant for ill, I will ultimately turn to good, and all the evil in your plans will be turned for good.

We may look at Results and come to our conclusions as to what would have been Good, Better, and Best; but we do not see the "God's eye view".

While the Valar may not know what is to come, or be able to follow the Streams of Fate to their final end, that doesn't mean that Eru cannot.

Nor (here's my favorite part) if Eru knows the future, does that mean that Eru has "predestined" or fated everything a certain way; what makes free will mysterious, is that it may be predictable if you know the chooser intimately. That doesn't turn free will into fate. My husband knows that I love chocolate and will choose it over (ugh!) peas anytime day or night. But he is not "making" me choose; it is not my "fate" to choose chocolate over (ugh) peas. He simply knows me well enough to know what I will choose. And if Eru is all-knowing, then he knows what choices we will make, without violating our ability to choose.

Perhaps a more realistic example: Will Aragorn choose to lie, or tell the truth? We know him well enough that we know he will choose to tell the truth, because of who he is. But we are not "fating" him to tell the truth. He simply does, and we know that he will, because we know he is consistent. If Eru knows him intimately (as he does) then Eru knows what he will choose, without making him choose it.

I'm not negating the existance of fate under certain (fateful) circumstances, such as "The Streams"; I'm simply saying that in some cases, knowing the future involves fate, and in some cases, knowing the future simply involves Intimacy with those forming the future and making the choices.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo mark 12_30:

The quote you are thinking of is this one where Ilúvatar speaks, in the Ainulindalë:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

The way I look at the interplay between doom and free will is this: Destiny is the stage we are given, free will is how we choose to act upon that stage.

BTW, I greatly enjoyed your comments over on the "Elucidation of Truth" thread. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Raefindel:

It's good to know you. * bows a greeting * [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

You ask regarding Tolkien, and why he ...

created a world where Judeo-Christian befliefs did not exist and studied and modeled it after cultures where said Judeo-Christian beliefs did not exist. Why would he do that?

I would answer that the best truths are universal, and that together these universal truths form Truth.

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Mithadan]

Please keep in mind that what I posted is my interpretation of Tolkien's writings. I know of others who would insist strongly that the Valar and Elves operated entirely through their own free will. I don't agree and think there is ample support for my interpretation in the Silm and HoME.

Notwithstanding what was fated expressly in the Music, there was ample room for the exercise of free will by both the Valar and the Elves. Yet their actions tended to "lock in" the paths that the future would take. Child, you mention the decision of the Valar to summon the Elves to Valinor. This appears to be an area where free will was exercised with dire consequences. In either Morgoth's Ring or War of the Jewels there is a snippet of "dialogue" between Manwe and Eru where Eru questions this decision but states that since the decision was made it was now fated to be so. From this decision, coupled with the "temporary" imprisonment of Morgoth, events led slowly but inexorably to the rebellion of the Valar. Morgoth's role in Arda as the corruptor and source of chaos was established by his own rebellion during the Music and his nature was set by the dissonance he created in the Themes. Manwe could not understand Morgoth's nature because he was fundamentally good and could not conceive of evil (See Osanwe-Kenta). The Noldor were innocents but corruptible and were twisted by Morgoth. This is the nature of Arda Marred.

I think Tolkien struggled a bit with the nature of the Half-Elves. Perhaps absent a "ruling" by the Valar (with the implied consent of Eru) their nature could not be established. Thus, until Earendil and Elwing, all of the nature of the half-elven remained undecided and all died young to avoid the determination of whether they would have the longevity of Elves. Perhaps this too was fate of a sort.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail and Well Met, Mithadan:

Please accept my compliments on the eloquent and informative contribution you've made to this discussion. I especially applaud the final paragraph of your first post in this thread, finding it fascinating to compare and contrast Elves bound to fate on the one hand with Men possessing free will on the other, and seeing as if through new eyes how the difference between these kindreds play out and interrelate when their paths cross.

Gandalf the Grey

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Mithadan]

Thank you, Gandalf. And, if I'm not mistaken, happy birthday (belatedly).

[Greyhame]

Thank you all for keeping this little ol' thread going. It's been a pleasure so far hearing the different perspectives all of you have. This is a fascinating idea to me, and I'm glad that my humble little thread has "gained some steam", so to speak, these last couple of days. I'll check back in as soon as I'm able to compose my thoughts and respond to some of the highlights. Until then, keep posting, my dead friends.

[Bêthberry]

I found this quotation from Tolkien on grace and Providence on a private website and thought it would make a good addition to the discussion here. I don't have the Letters so I cannot verify the context.

No account is here taken of 'grace' or the enhancement of our powers as instruments of Providence. Frodo was given 'grace': first to answer the call (at the end of the Council) after long resisting a complete surrender; and later in his resistance to the temptation of the Ring (at times when to claim and so reveal it would have been fatal), and in his endurance of fear and suffering. But grace is not infinite, and for the most pan seems in the Divine economy limited to what is sufficient for the accomplishment of the task appointed to one instrument in a pattern of circumstances and other instruments. ~letter 156

Bethberry