Celeborn - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

JenFramp · 09-20-2002, 09:41 AM

I have always been a bit puzzled by the person of Celeborn (as was Tolkien himself). As He is said to be wise and powerful. Yet he seems to be completely in the background when the Fellowship passes through Lorien and only when Sauron is defeated he overcomes the forces that besiege Lorien. Though he is said to be of the household of Elu Thingol he isn’t mentioned in the Silmarillion much or at all I believe.

So what were his powers. Why did Galadriel marry an Avari (if he is one) and why does he get left behind after Galadriel sails to the West (following her years later)?

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: JenFramp ]

Amarie · 09-20-2002, 10:31 AM

Thingol was the uncle of Celeborn's father. He remained behind when Galadriel left Middle-earth because he chose to. I do not think his reasons are known, so you'll probably just hear speculations.

Melephelwen · 09-20-2002, 01:38 PM

Auch, that's a tough(sp?) one. I think it's mentioned in Unfinished Tales, but I only read to page 116 before I had to return it. There was a whole lot about Galadriel and Celeborn there. ... Guess that was all the useful stuff I could come up with on this topic so far. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 09-20-2002, 02:09 PM

I don't think that it was said anywhere why they left seperatly, I don't remember it, but then again, my memory is not that great. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I personally think that Galadriel kind of was oblidged to leave with the other ring bearers. Celeborn was not a ring bearer therefor he did not have to go. Perhaps he still had some busness to attend to. Also remeber that they were not the only couple who left ME separetly. Elrond and Celbrian(sp) left separatly as well.

As to his importence, yes he was like an elf king, but Galadriel was more powerfull. She is a fair bit older for one thing, also she had the ring. Maybe it is like England, sometimes they have a king in charge and sometimes a queen.

Mattius · 09-22-2002, 04:00 PM

AHEM, a king or queen is never "in charge" in England! The Prime Minister is in charge, the Royal Family is only here beacuse we did not have a full scale revolution and beacuse they attracted many tourists! PSSH! In charge indeed!

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mattius ]

Nar · 09-22-2002, 06:48 PM

What?? The King of England is not in charge??? Next you'll be telling me they've moved the royal court out of Cornwall! Sheesh!

It says in UT 'Of Galadriel and Celeborn' that Galadriel stayed in Middle Earth for love of Celeborn, who always seems to have been more tied to middle earth (as a kinsman of Thingol, I take it he never saw Valinor, correct?). I don't think there's a detailed description of their courtship or relationship anywhere-- somewhere it says 'there was great love between them' --couldn't find it in the Silmarillion, must be in HoME, can't recall the volume. Their love is not very convincingly illustrated, although it's a nice thought. Galadriel had more openness towards non-elves and particularly the Dwarves of Moria than Celeborn did. Perhaps Celeborn strengthened Galadriel's concern for Middle Earth with his love of the place. And the tree-dwelling, tree-loving aspect of their lives came from Celeborn and his way of living-- Galadriel's people, the Noldor, did not have that heritage. So the heart of Lorien, Cerin Amroth and the tree-loft of Galadriel and Celeborn came out of a union of her knowledge and power and his passion for trees. As to why Celeborn stayed behind when Galariel left, it was probably a combination of his love of trees and the land and his feelings of responsibility for those elves remaining-- he may not have wanted them to lose BOTH their leaders.

Lush · 09-22-2002, 06:54 PM

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the fact that after Galadriel departed, Celeborn was up to business of his own, business that included Legolas's father, Thranduil. Didn't they rename and re-divide Mirkwood? Or have I gone completely mad?

mark12_30 · 09-22-2002, 07:32 PM

I beileve I remember reading that Galadriel cleansed Mirkwood & the Necromancer's place with her ring (that sticks in my mind because somebody asked "Why did it still work after the one ring was destroyed" and the answer was "the elven rings faded slowly, they didn't just melt immediately".)

And then, yes, Celeborn had business to attend to in the woods there.

Birdland · 09-22-2002, 07:50 PM

Now, now Mattius. I'm sure Arwen was harking back to the days when the King or Queen was calling all the shots.

Everyone knows that the Queen isn't in charge of the country now...The Daily Mirror is. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Mattius · 09-23-2002, 04:00 AM

your damn right

Frodo Baggins · 09-23-2002, 05:38 PM

All right, so it mentions that thw White Council consisted of "Elrond and Galadariel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar..." But it never says anything about Celeborn on the White Council! Why??

Nar · 09-23-2002, 07:37 PM

He just wasn't wise enough. No one who hates dwarves can be trusted with the safety of Middle Earth.

Elrian · 09-23-2002, 08:53 PM

Legolas wasn't too fond of them either yet he was made a member of the Fellowship, instead of a dwarf friendly Rivendellian.
Celeborn's dislike stemmed from them awakening the Balrog. Come to think of it he and Thranduil made for a pretty good match as far as Rulers of lands near Dwarf territory!

Nar · 09-24-2002, 09:58 AM

Elrond looked deep into Legolas' heart and perceived a dwarf-friend there waiting to be released; Galadriel looked deep into Celeborn's heart and ... Ok, I'm joking about the dwarf-hating aspect. However, Celeborn consistently comes across as more narrowminded than any elf since Thranduil. I can't recall a quote from him that doesn't start out short-sighted and ill-tempered. Perhaps you can help me there.

I suppose it was Celeborn's traumatic young-elfhood, but he seems like one whose better nature only comes out in his second thoughts. He is an elf very much rooted to his place and his people, so I can see him never getting over his bitterness about the Balrog reawakened by diligence or greed, depending on one's point of view. I don't think that's particularly wise, however, unless he knew the dwarves had been warned not to delve and ignored the warning. If the dwarves were warned, then I missed that part; I viewed the reawakening of the Balrog as an accident. Therefore I'm not very sympathetic to Celeborn's bitterness about that; but there is the murder of Thingol by dwarves to consider also. (While not entirely unprovoked, it was not sufficiently provoked for such measures.)

Cazoz · 09-24-2002, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Everyone knows that the Queen isn't in charge of the country now...The Daily Mirror is.

]
And there was me thinking Rupert Murdoch was Big Brother?!

Was Celeborn part of the White Council?
I never knew quite who the other Elven Lords were supposed to be, but I always hoped poor Glorfindel would get a look in.

Frodo Baggins · 09-24-2002, 05:55 PM

Celeborn's traumatic young-elfhood?? What happened to him????

GreatWarg · 09-24-2002, 06:05 PM

Quote:

I suppose it was Celeborn's traumatic young-elfhood, but he seems like one whose better nature only comes out in his second thoughts.

Elu Thingol was slain by Dwarves. There is the simple answer. Celeborn must have grieved for that. And why wouldn't you hate the slayers of your kinsman? The Elves were divided during the kinslayings.

Also, Galadriel was a Noldor. Elrond was partly Noldor. Celeborn was Silvan. See anything there? The Noldor are usually wiser in lore and have the greater power than the Silvan Elves, but the Silvan Elves knew more about the beasts and the plants that grew in Middle-earth.

Nar · 09-24-2002, 07:12 PM

All very valid points, GreatWarg, reasons that would make a hatred of dwarves understandable, but not wise. To hate an entire race for two and some ages because one troop of dwarves killed a (great, beloved) kinsman during an argument with original faults on both sides is not an act of wisdom. Wisdom is what's needed for the White Council. Wisdom requires the ability to see beyond personal bitterness. Celeborn seems able to do that on second thought or after hearing from Galadriel, but this is not his first response. He's a little old to be so intemperate. However, this makes him potentially of great interest as a character; it's a pity he appears so little.

I think that Silvan elves might have different types of insight than the Noldor do, but that Silvan elves are as likely to be as wise, if not as knowledgable in lore as the Noldor... more like Treebeard's sort of insight-- I'd take his advice over that of most Noldor.

My feeling is that Celeborn had a great deal of insight into the land and the trees, the wind and the earth, but could never articulate it even to his wife.

novbarwen greenleaf · 09-28-2002, 06:47 AM

all i can say is that Celeborn is a very wise guy... i mean elf! He didn't talk a lot in the movie [but he did talk a lot in the book]. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Frodo Baggins · 09-28-2002, 08:38 AM

Thank you Great Warg. I had forgotten that.
Are you the same GW from the chatroom? AKA Gil-Galad?? If you are this is your herald and minstrel speaking.

OK I forgot, how were Thingol and Celeborn related????

akhtene · 09-28-2002, 03:45 PM

Quote:

"Why has nothing of this been told to me before?" (Celeborn at the first meeting with the Company)

What I see is an ill-informed, but pretending to be in charge of everything boss (eg. my headmaster)

How come that Celeborn knows so much less about the Council of Elrond that Galadriel does? Has she got her personal spies (sorry, agents) and receives private mail? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elenna · 09-29-2002, 01:46 PM

I feel bad for poor Celeborn - his wife completely runs the show. She knows all, sees all, and doesn't tell him, allowing him to be completely embarrassed in front of the Fellowship.

Plus, on top of it all, she refers to herself as "Gimli's Lady". Now if that wouldn't make someone hate dwarves, I don't know what will!

Cazoz · 09-29-2002, 08:20 PM

Not totally related, but not worth starting a thread for:

I was re-reading TTT today and when Gandalf's telling them about the Balrog showdown and how Galadriel had already told Gwahir (sp?) to pick him up and bring him to Lorien, how did she know he was alive?
In which case, did she secretly think/know he would come back when the Fellowship were in Lorien? How would she have communicated with Valinor?
And wouldn't he have been embarrassed about being nekkid?!

Lostolin · 09-30-2002, 06:48 AM

Galadriel said to the Fellowship that Gandalf had passed into darkness from information she read in their heads. She did not say he was dead. Galadriel probably did not know Gandalf would come back when the Fellowship was in Lorien (no information suggests she did). I don't know about Valinor since I haven't read the Silmarillion. Lastly, Gandalf would not be embarrassed of being naked since that is merely a form he adopted and he doesn't give a whit about it.

akhtene · 09-30-2002, 04:51 PM

Just read my own stupid post and got a better idea.
Could it be that the bearers of elven rings communicated through them somehow? I don't mean the way we do on the phone, but they probably knew/felt each other's whereabouts, the state of mind and whether one needed help. This could explain what Galadriel said about Gandalf's passing into darkness and the fact she knew where to send the eagle to.

Legolas · 09-30-2002, 05:07 PM

Frodo Baggins - Thingol's brother, Elmo, was Celeborn's grandfather.

Elmo - Thingol
|
Galadhon
|
Celeborn - Galathil

09-20-2002, 09:41 AM	#1
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	Celeborn I have always been a bit puzzled by the person of Celeborn (as was Tolkien himself). As He is said to be wise and powerful. Yet he seems to be completely in the background when the Fellowship passes through Lorien and only when Sauron is defeated he overcomes the forces that besiege Lorien. Though he is said to be of the household of Elu Thingol he isn’t mentioned in the Silmarillion much or at all I believe. So what were his powers. Why did Galadriel marry an Avari (if he is one) and why does he get left behind after Galadriel sails to the West (following her years later)? [ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: JenFramp ] __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

09-20-2002, 01:38 PM	#3
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 291	Auch, that's a tough(sp?) one. I think it's mentioned in Unfinished Tales, but I only read to page 116 before I had to return it. There was a whole lot about Galadriel and Celeborn there. ... Guess that was all the useful stuff I could come up with on this topic so far. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon

09-20-2002, 02:09 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I don't think that it was said anywhere why they left seperatly, I don't remember it, but then again, my memory is not that great. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I personally think that Galadriel kind of was oblidged to leave with the other ring bearers. Celeborn was not a ring bearer therefor he did not have to go. Perhaps he still had some busness to attend to. Also remeber that they were not the only couple who left ME separetly. Elrond and Celbrian(sp) left separatly as well. As to his importence, yes he was like an elf king, but Galadriel was more powerfull. She is a fair bit older for one thing, also she had the ring. Maybe it is like England, sometimes they have a king in charge and sometimes a queen. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

09-22-2002, 04:00 PM	#5
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	AHEM, a king or queen is never "in charge" in England! The Prime Minister is in charge, the Royal Family is only here beacuse we did not have a full scale revolution and beacuse they attracted many tourists! PSSH! In charge indeed! [ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mattius ] __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

09-22-2002, 06:54 PM	#7
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the fact that after Galadriel departed, Celeborn was up to business of his own, business that included Legolas's father, Thranduil. Didn't they rename and re-divide Mirkwood? Or have I gone completely mad? __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

09-20-2002, 10:31 AM	#2
Amarie Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 33	Thingol was the uncle of Celeborn's father. He remained behind when Galadriel left Middle-earth because he chose to. I do not think his reasons are known, so you'll probably just hear speculations.

09-22-2002, 06:48 PM	#6
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	What?? The King of England is not in charge??? Next you'll be telling me they've moved the royal court out of Cornwall! Sheesh! It says in UT 'Of Galadriel and Celeborn' that Galadriel stayed in Middle Earth for love of Celeborn, who always seems to have been more tied to middle earth (as a kinsman of Thingol, I take it he never saw Valinor, correct?). I don't think there's a detailed description of their courtship or relationship anywhere-- somewhere it says 'there was great love between them' --couldn't find it in the Silmarillion, must be in HoME, can't recall the volume. Their love is not very convincingly illustrated, although it's a nice thought. Galadriel had more openness towards non-elves and particularly the Dwarves of Moria than Celeborn did. Perhaps Celeborn strengthened Galadriel's concern for Middle Earth with his love of the place. And the tree-dwelling, tree-loving aspect of their lives came from Celeborn and his way of living-- Galadriel's people, the Noldor, did not have that heritage. So the heart of Lorien, Cerin Amroth and the tree-loft of Galadriel and Celeborn came out of a union of her knowledge and power and his passion for trees. As to why Celeborn stayed behind when Galariel left, it was probably a combination of his love of trees and the land and his feelings of responsibility for those elves remaining-- he may not have wanted them to lose BOTH their leaders.

09-22-2002, 07:32 PM	#8
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I beileve I remember reading that Galadriel cleansed Mirkwood & the Necromancer's place with her ring (that sticks in my mind because somebody asked "Why did it still work after the one ring was destroyed" and the answer was "the elven rings faded slowly, they didn't just melt immediately".) And then, yes, Celeborn had business to attend to in the woods there. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

09-22-2002, 07:50 PM	#9
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Now, now Mattius. I'm sure Arwen was harking back to the days when the King or Queen was calling all the shots. Everyone knows that the Queen isn't in charge of the country now...The Daily Mirror is. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

09-23-2002, 04:00 AM	#10
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	your damn right __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

09-23-2002, 05:38 PM	#11
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	All right, so it mentions that thw White Council consisted of "Elrond and Galadariel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar..." But it never says anything about Celeborn on the White Council! Why?? __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

09-23-2002, 07:37 PM	#12
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	He just wasn't wise enough. No one who hates dwarves can be trusted with the safety of Middle Earth.

09-23-2002, 08:53 PM	#13
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Legolas wasn't too fond of them either yet he was made a member of the Fellowship, instead of a dwarf friendly Rivendellian. Celeborn's dislike stemmed from them awakening the Balrog. Come to think of it he and Thranduil made for a pretty good match as far as Rulers of lands near Dwarf territory! __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

09-24-2002, 09:58 AM	#14
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Elrond looked deep into Legolas' heart and perceived a dwarf-friend there waiting to be released; Galadriel looked deep into Celeborn's heart and ... Ok, I'm joking about the dwarf-hating aspect. However, Celeborn consistently comes across as more narrowminded than any elf since Thranduil. I can't recall a quote from him that doesn't start out short-sighted and ill-tempered. Perhaps you can help me there. I suppose it was Celeborn's traumatic young-elfhood, but he seems like one whose better nature only comes out in his second thoughts. He is an elf very much rooted to his place and his people, so I can see him never getting over his bitterness about the Balrog reawakened by diligence or greed, depending on one's point of view. I don't think that's particularly wise, however, unless he knew the dwarves had been warned not to delve and ignored the warning. If the dwarves were warned, then I missed that part; I viewed the reawakening of the Balrog as an accident. Therefore I'm not very sympathetic to Celeborn's bitterness about that; but there is the murder of Thingol by dwarves to consider also. (While not entirely unprovoked, it was not sufficiently provoked for such measures.)

09-24-2002, 05:55 PM	#16
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Celeborn's traumatic young-elfhood?? What happened to him???? __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

09-24-2002, 07:12 PM	#18
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	All very valid points, GreatWarg, reasons that would make a hatred of dwarves understandable, but not wise. To hate an entire race for two and some ages because one troop of dwarves killed a (great, beloved) kinsman during an argument with original faults on both sides is not an act of wisdom. Wisdom is what's needed for the White Council. Wisdom requires the ability to see beyond personal bitterness. Celeborn seems able to do that on second thought or after hearing from Galadriel, but this is not his first response. He's a little old to be so intemperate. However, this makes him potentially of great interest as a character; it's a pity he appears so little. I think that Silvan elves might have different types of insight than the Noldor do, but that Silvan elves are as likely to be as wise, if not as knowledgable in lore as the Noldor... more like Treebeard's sort of insight-- I'd take his advice over that of most Noldor. My feeling is that Celeborn had a great deal of insight into the land and the trees, the wind and the earth, but could never articulate it even to his wife.

09-28-2002, 06:47 AM	#19
novbarwen greenleaf Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South Ithilien Posts: 18	all i can say is that Celeborn is a very wise guy... i mean elf! He didn't talk a lot in the movie [but he did talk a lot in the book]. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "He stands not alone. You would die before your stroke fell." - Legolas

09-28-2002, 08:38 AM	#20
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Thank you Great Warg. I had forgotten that. Are you the same GW from the chatroom? AKA Gil-Galad?? If you are this is your herald and minstrel speaking. OK I forgot, how were Thingol and Celeborn related???? __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

09-29-2002, 01:46 PM	#22
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I feel bad for poor Celeborn - his wife completely runs the show. She knows all, sees all, and doesn't tell him, allowing him to be completely embarrassed in front of the Fellowship. Plus, on top of it all, she refers to herself as "Gimli's Lady". Now if that wouldn't make someone hate dwarves, I don't know what will! __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

09-29-2002, 08:20 PM	#23
Cazoz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 71	Not totally related, but not worth starting a thread for: I was re-reading TTT today and when Gandalf's telling them about the Balrog showdown and how Galadriel had already told Gwahir (sp?) to pick him up and bring him to Lorien, how did she know he was alive? In which case, did she secretly think/know he would come back when the Fellowship were in Lorien? How would she have communicated with Valinor? And wouldn't he have been embarrassed about being nekkid?!

09-30-2002, 06:48 AM	#24
Lostolin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Texas (!) Posts: 13	Galadriel said to the Fellowship that Gandalf had passed into darkness from information she read in their heads. She did not say he was dead. Galadriel probably did not know Gandalf would come back when the Fellowship was in Lorien (no information suggests she did). I don't know about Valinor since I haven't read the Silmarillion. Lastly, Gandalf would not be embarrassed of being naked since that is merely a form he adopted and he doesn't give a whit about it. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..

09-30-2002, 04:51 PM	#25
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Just read my own stupid post and got a better idea. Could it be that the bearers of elven rings communicated through them somehow? I don't mean the way we do on the phone, but they probably knew/felt each other's whereabouts, the state of mind and whether one needed help. This could explain what Galadriel said about Gandalf's passing into darkness and the fact she knew where to send the eagle to. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

09-30-2002, 05:07 PM	#26
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Frodo Baggins - Thingol's brother, Elmo, was Celeborn's grandfather. Elmo - Thingol \| Galadhon \| Celeborn - Galathil __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.