Wizards' Pupils

[Elianna]

There's a quote of Denethor's in RotK of him calling Faramir a 'wizard's pupil' (meaning of course Gandalf).

Also we know that Grima was Saruman's pupil, sort of, "...Saruman said them, the teacher of Wormtongue..." (Gandalf, RotK, Houses of Healing).

Of course, these Wizard's Pupils have something else in common: Eowyn.

Think Tolkien meant to have that connection? What do you guys think of it?

[Boromir88]

Interesting observations Elianna. Another one, and probably more recognizable, Gandalf's pupil, is a good man, and wins Eowyn's heart. Where Saruman's pupil, likes Eowyn, but Eowyn despises him. I think there is a definate connection Tolkien is trying to make, and the answer is Eowyn. She falls for the good guy, and eventhough there was a time when Theoden listened to Grima's counsel, Eowyn saw right through him .

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It gets even more complicated: Aragorn is very much Gandalf's pupil (even though I don't think he is called that directly) and he not only attracts Eowyn, but also gets the girl he wants (Arwen -- remember her?).

Could it be that Gandalf 'teaches' love while Saruman 'teaches' desire? This might actually explain something of Eowyn: having been for so long under the indirect influence of Saruman (via Wormtongue and perhaps even Theoden) she has begun to learn the lesson of desire and this is what leads her toward Aragorn. It is up to that other wizard's pupil, Faramir, to teach her the lesson of love.

How would this work through (or over?) other of Gandalf's acquaintance? I think that it's pretty safe to say that Frodo learns the lesson of love from Gandalf in that he comes to show pity and mercy to Gollum, when his desire is to kill the creature. In the end, is not this at the heart of Frodo's struggle with the Ring -- the desire to have the Ring (Grima for Eowyn; Eowyn for Aragorn) versus the love of the Shire and of Sam (Aragorn for Arwen).

Perhaps I will have something more eloquent and coherent later.

[Boromir88]

Some more wonderful observations by Fordhim! Eventhough Eowyn despises Grima, it's as if a "part" of Grima rubs off on her. That thought of "desiring." Saruman teaches Grima, then Eowyn (unconsciously) follows Grima, atleast at first. She desires Aragorn, (were they for the wrong reasons? I don't know yet.) and it's only until she meets Faramir when she finds "true" love.

Interesting connection, for Aragorn is indeed Gandalf's "pupil" as well, eventhough it doesn't come out to say it. Aragorn had spent a great deal of time around Gandalf, searching for Gollum, during the Fellowship, and it never comes out to say he's Gandalf's "pupil," but he admires Gandalf greatly. Faramir, isn't around Gandalf as much, but he still admires Gandalf, Denethor see's this and calls him the "wizard's pupil." Then Eowyn falls for both of Gandalf's pupils, it's interesting how this works.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't there something about Grima not having words for Theoden's ear alone? "What is the house of Eorl but at thatched barn.." ?

Although there is no suggestion that there were arranged dynastic marriages in the Royal Houses of Gondor and Rohan as there were in European royal houses until so very recently, Eowyn would not necessarily have a free choice of spouse. For all her admiration for the soldiers, Eowyn is sufficiently cerebral to want more from a husband than a Middle Earth version of Captain Mark Phillips, and it seems the only cerebral man in the kingdom to whom she is not a close relative is the repulsive Grima.

Had the Grima's influence persisted, with Theodred dead and Eomer estranged, it is not hard to imagine that Eowyn migh find herself in a situation where she might find it difficult to refuse Grima. This might be a part explanation for her desire to ride to battle, the aaalternative might be a fate worse than death.

Although some people feel that Eowyn "settled" for Faramir, I think it is more that Aragorn provided an escape route, and was more of an example of the type of man she needed rather than the actual one.

Faramir actively sought to learn from Gandalf though and Denethor, wise in lore himself, no doubt took that as a slight.

In the light of Fordim's comments I wonder if it is significant that Boromir, a man who delighted in warfare at the expense of marriage, tried to talk the ring out of Frodo and failed (and in a sense paid for his failure with his death), while Faramir who has no desire for the ring and lets it pass from his hands, sucessfully talks his way into Eowyn's heart. Perhaps he is trying to tell us something about healthy and unhealthy desire.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

When Faramir was younger, a lad, presumably, was when Gandalf came to Minas Tirith searching for lore and records left by Isildur, and anything else that could help him solve his dilemma in the Shire, or reinforce his hunch.

Anyway, Faramir, a young man of, say thirty, would have been ... 13 (I think that's right) ... Gandalf went to Minas Tirith 17 years before Frodo's Quest began.

And in those days, no doubt he was enamored of Gandalf and wanted to learn as much as possible, even as Boromir, who was only a few years older, was becoming a man (16 - 20 sort of age) and was learning the ways of the warrior.

Denethor was probably pretty absorbed in Boromir's becoming Chief Warden of the Tower, which is a pretty big deal. And since we know Denethor and Gandalf had a bit of a rivalry, and other than that were a lot alike in that they were wizened sorts of thinkers, it seems likely that Faramir as a kid would want somebody to teach him something, because Denethor was busy focusing on Boromir. And Gandalf seemed like a suitable teacher.

So, the fact is, he was probably very much the Wizard's pupil for a short while, and Denethor probably always begrudged both of them for it.

Wormtongue is less a pupil than an assistant, but you're absolutely right, about the love versus desire idea.

The difference is, Wormtongue was "bought" by Saruman, whereas people who chose to learn from Gandalf did it themselves, out of friendship or curiosity.

Even reading the Hobbit, you see right off the bat that while Bilbo feigned his sort of attitude of contentment and disinterest, he really did want to hear all these amazing things about the world (which is why he couldn't help but get interested and involved).

Faramir and Wormtongue ... that's kind of an interesting paradox.

They really are EXACT opposites.

Faramir is kind-hearted and wise, and doesn't desire power, and yet his counsels are totally disregarded by his lord.

Wormtongue is cold and calculating, and desires anything he can get, and his counsels very nearly took over Theoden's mind.

So really ... Eowyn may have warmed up because here was a man who was the exact opposite of Wormtongue, who she despised.

As for Aragorn ... he's inspiration. He inspired Faramir, he inspired Eowyn. He inspired Theoden, and Denethor may have complained about being supplanted, but recognized that here was a guy who was going to take control.

Even Boromir dug him.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It occurs to me that there's yet another way of thinking about this, in relation to the Shire itself.

Gandalf and Faramir love the Shire and work to protect it for the sake of that love. I realise that Faramir has never been to the Shire, but he is a Ranger (connected to those other Rangers who do protect the Shire) and he is connected with Ithilien, which is the most Shire-like land we see. He also comes to respect and admire the Hobbits, in particular Sam, and he seeks to learn about their land from them.

Saruman and Grima desire the Shire: they want its luxury goods, and then seek to consume it for their revenge.

In this respect, the Shire and Eowyn are themselves being connected to one another. Just as she is saved from the dangerous and consuming desire of Grima by the love of Faramir (thanks to the intercession of Aragorn), so too is the Shire saved from the dangerous and consuming desire of Saruman and Grima by the love of the Shirelings (thanks to the intercession of those Hobbits who have been caught up in Aragorn's story). In this way I think we can really see the Shire as the clearest example, even the most concrete, of the difference that exists between the desire that motivates Saruman (and his pupil) and the love that motivates Gandalf (and his pupil). The Shire as desired object becomes something to be owned by a single individual, and thus spoiled for all. The Shire as beloved object is owned and enjoyed by all, and is thus beautiful.

And this in turn brings me back to Eowyn: insfoar as she desires Aragorn she is following an essentially possessive and selfish desire -- she wants Aragorn for her self, so she can be free and happy, and have glory. Not bad desires, perhaps, but destructive. In the end, she moves past this desire (of and for the self) and toward a love with Faramir that allows her to think about and be part of a larger community, and to think of others: she will become the White Lady of Ithilien. . .which is, like I said, much like the Shire.

[Mithalwen]

It is interesting that you see Ithilien as the Shire - I think of Ithilien once it is in Faramir's care as a mini-Numenor. A land of gift, reward for part in struggle against a great enemy, fair but made more beautiful by the aid of elves. Faramir is so often associated with Numenor and I have a theory that his exceptional lifespan was a grace allowed him for his significant role in the downfall of Sauron. In this context, I see the relationship of Eowyn and Faramir as a positive balace to the dysfunctional one of Aldarion and Erendis which sowed the seeds of Numenor's downfall. In Ithilien, with Faramir and Eowyn, all things flourish..

It almost seems ironic that Faramir is "condemned" as a wizard's pupil, he has not learned sorcery from him but humanitarianism - the key lesson on the lines of " many who live deserve death and many who die deserve life - can you give it to them?". It is Farmir's humanity that saves the quest, sparing Gollum, letting Frodo go - in effect risking his own life by not copping out and following orders.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I always saw Ithilien as more of a successor to Lothlorien ... like; "We Men aren't all stone castles and deforestation, we appreciate nature too."

It really stems from how much Legolas enjoyed his short time there. Didn't he say that after he brought some of his kindred to fill Minas Tirith with trees, he would take them to Ithilien and wander for a while?

Not only does that suggest a friendship that he probably formed with Faramir, but also that this was one of those places ...

He was really into Fangorn, and presumably Rivendell as well, for different reasons, and even was made to love the Glittering Caves. But he talked about visiting those places, not staying there for any extended period.

I think Ithilien reminded him of Ossiriand. Not that he was ever an inhabitant of The Land of The Seven Rivers, but he probably, like most elves, knew something about it.

Could Faramir be called an Elf-Friend?

Aragorn certainly could ... probably Eomer too.

[Encaitare]

probably Eomer too.

I'm sure he could be, especially since his son's name, Elfwine, means "elf-friend."

[tar-ancalime]

And this in turn brings me back to Eowyn: insfoar as she desires Aragorn she is following an essentially possessive and selfish desire -- she wants Aragorn for her self, so she can be free and happy, and have glory. Not bad desires, perhaps, but destructive. In the end, she moves past this desire (of and for the self) and toward a love with Faramir that allows her to think about and be part of a larger community, and to think of others: she will become the White Lady of Ithilien. . .which is, like I said, much like the Shire.

Thank you for this! This is the best explanation I've heard for the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I love it when a thread shows us something that we all already knew, but didn't really know.

This idea of desire versus love was really right under our noses.

One of those invisible, taken for granted things that came with the territory of good versus evil, and how it would affect relationships ...

I feel all enlightened.

Once more, I am amazed at Tolkien's characterizations.

And other than that ... I can't think of anything to further progress this thread.

Well ... maybe I can.

It has to do with noble intent.

Because I think Faramir got off to a much better start with Eomer than Wormtongue did, and that was a pretty smart idea.

As a matter of fact ... if Wormtongue had any intent of attempting to 'woo' Eowyn, he was kind of out of luck. Not just because he was a bad guy, but because before Theodred died, which was only days before we met the Rohirrim, Eowyn practically had TWO brothers.

And kind of repeating the whole topic, Wormtongue viewed her as a prize. Faramir was willing to endure scorn and whatever else just to be with her ("taming one of the wild women of Rohan" and that sort of thing).

And then, there's this little bit;

Wormtongue was a coward. Faramir may have abhorred violence, but he fought anyway, for his people, for everybody.

[Mithalwen]

Actually it was Legolas's intention to bring his people and their plants to gondor, and then creating gardens for Faramir and Eowyn that made me think of the Elves of Eressea bringing gifts, particularly the birds to Erendis and of her rejection of them along with her marriage.

[Halbarad]

I don't favour the idea that Aragorn was a 'wizard's pupil'. TA2956 Aragorn met Gandalf and they became friends. Aragorn was 25 at the time, but had lived at Imladris for 18 years, and had been travelling and lving in the wilds for 5 years. I seriously doubt that Gandalf had much to teach him. I mean, when you grow up with elf lords, your foster father is Elrond, and you get to hang out with Elladan and Elrohir, you would get a pretty well-rounded education. I would argue that Gandalf and Aragorn enjoyed a friendship, if not of equals, then one of mutual respect, whereas the Gandalf-Faramir relationship was more of a loremaster-student one.

A small point, mentioned in passing, but I cling to it.

[Boromir88]

Halbarad, here's a section from The King of the Golden Hall, and some other quotes...

"It is the will of Theoden," said Hama.
"It is not clear to me that the will of Theoden son of Thengel, even though he be lord of the Mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil's heir of Gondor."
"This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor," said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.
"This is idle talk," said Gandalf. "Needless is Theoden's demand, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom."

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last, 'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.'

We can see through out these books (but I admit less in ROTK), that Gandalf instructs Aragorn, counsels him on the right desicions, and Aragorn learns humility and says "I am not the captain here, you are." The quote above is slightly different from the Aragorn we see earlier. When deciding on where to go, once Caradhras became a bad idea, Aragorn argued for a while about not going through Moria, then finally he agrees to go along. Here Aragorn doesn't question Gandalf at all, and says "We will go where he leads." Gandalf was very much like a mentor to Aragorn.

Aragorn was 25 at the time, but had lived at Imladris for 18 years, and had been travelling and lving in the wilds for 5 years. I seriously doubt that Gandalf had much to teach him.

No matter how old one is, or a man's education, you could always learn. This holds true in today's world, I am amazed at how much I've learned from my niece and nephew, or even just coaching baseball.

[Thinlómien]

Just for you, KoDG:

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

Faramir, a young man of, say thirty

36.

Boromir, only few years older

5 years older.
Just if you wanted to know.

[Halbarad]

Those examples escaped me. I stand corrected Boromir88, although I will append that only one can lead, the rest must follow, and Gandalf was the obvious choice to lead.

[Lathriel]

Interesting observation of Saruman's pupils versus Gandalf's pupils.
Another reason why they are both so different is that Saruman teaches hate. Somebody who hates too much isn't able to love and can only feel desire. That would be Grima.

Faramir is taught by a different master who teaches love. Therefore Faramir can give more to Eowyn. Grima would never be able to do that because he was never taught about that. Or its also because his soul was corrupted by Saruman. Of course Gandalf nurtured the souls of all his pupils whereas Saruman did not.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Wormtongue was a coward. Faramir may have abhorred violence, but he fought anyway, for his people, for everybody

Gandalf seems to imply something else...

"Nay, Eomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue," said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. "He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down snake!"

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

Gandalf seems to imply something else...

Indeed, Gandalf does say Gríma is bold, but that boldness is only in his skill with words, and only where he knows he'll most likely win. Faramir is bold in battle, something that not even I will pretend to say for Gríma, with his sword rusting away in his room.

When it comes to physical prowess, Gríma is definately a coward. He even lets an old man beat him up. (Saruman was only an old man, sharku, by the time of the Shire.)

In pairing this with Faramir and Gríma's respective wizards: Saruman's main power was in his voice, the only place where Gríma was bold. Saruman makes minions to go and do his dirty work, his physical work; from this Gríma learned to only rely on his words and found (perhaps) others to fight for him.

Gandalf is not allowed to match Sauron force for force, but counsils others to act against Sauron, from this Faramir learned to rather use words than his sword. Also, Gandalf is capable of fighting, if he must, just as Faramir fights valiantly when he must.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Actually, I felt that Frodo seems more like Gandalf's pupil than Faramir; There were too few examples of Gandalf actually communicating with Faramir, whereas Frodo and Gandalf always took counsel together. Even when Gandalf was assumed 'killed', Frodo still took the wizard's words to heart.

I wonder how much of Frodo is actually Elvish and how much of him is really 'Gandalf'? Hardly any hobbit-sense though...