The Dunedain?

[Elessar Telcontar]

Is there anybody else out there who felt highly disappointed with the lack of the Grey Company and Elrond's sons from RotK. For me the chapters featuring Aragorn and his kin conjured the most images and feelings into my mind.

Surely the inclusion of the Grey Company would have added to Aragorn's return to the throne in the movie by giving more detail on the bloodlines of Gondor and a more detailed explaination as to why Aragorn was an outcast.

By the way I loved the films and I dont want anyone thinking otherwise. Also this is my first thread so please go easy on me...

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Hey, welcome to the 'Downs, you'll be fine.
Anyways the Grey Company certainly would have added a considerable ammount of weight to the narrative and would therefore fit right in in my opinion.

[Boromir88]

First off, trust me, as Gothbogg said you'll be fine, whatever complaints you have about the film, I will probably have 5 times that amount (of course I'm only assuming). But, point is, I don't get beat up too bad lol. Anyway on to the question.

Yes, I do feel they should have added Halbarad and Elrond's sons. Elrond's sons are the best orc fighters of this age, and would were key additions to Gondor's victory. As you already said with the Dunedain, it would add more of an explanation to Aragorn's "kingship."

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I'm trying to recall if there is any mention of other rangers in the movies.
I would think a nonbook movie viewer would think he was "The Last of the
Dunedain" to paraphrase an old movie. Presumably PJ cut them out to
"simplify" things, but, since he had to have elvsees at Helm's Deep I can see
no compelling reason for not including Halbarad, his band, and Arwen's banner.
Parenthetically, one of PJ's errors at The Pelennor Fields was to not show the
banner unfolded on the lead ship and Eomer's reaction. Another was to not
have the charge begin in the dark and then have morning come.

(Theoden's) golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea, and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hooves of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the city.

And as for the Army of the Green Slime attacking at the Pelennor Fields!

However, PJ did elements of the movies quite well. On balance I thought his
best effort was FOTR.

[Boromir88]

Tuor:

one of PJ's errors at The Pelennor Fields was to not show the
banner unfolded on the lead ship and Eomer's reaction. Another was to not
have the charge begin in the dark and then have morning come.

So true, that is one of my favorite parts of the whole book. Eomer seeing the ships and thinking, oh crap, then seeing the banner unfold, is just amazing.

"Let this be the hour where were draw swords together." <<<<great line.

The misplacement of the Rohirrim charge let a whole bunch of things out of order. For instance, we don't see Eomer's command skills because Aragorn arrived hours after Theoden's death, and we miss all that "rallying" by Eomer. However, I am content with the charge as the sun is rising, it is a well placed time to add in the Rohirrim charge, eventhough I would have preferred it to be at night.

And as for the Army of the Green Slime attacking at the Pelennor Fields!

All I have to say is LOL, and this greatly diminishes the strength of Gondor. Hmm, a point of this story was to show the strength and rise of men, but yet they can't win at helm's deep without elves having to interfere, or they can't have a bunch of "green slime" save the day instead of 50 ships full of men following Aragorn.

[Elianna]

I think Halbarad, Ellahir and the Dunedain would've been a good addition to the film.

Rangers have been introduced: They've already had Butterbur say about Aragorn "He's one of them Rangers. Dangerous folk they are; wanderin' the wilds." It would emphasis Aragorn's king-ness. If they brought the flag (or Andúril), it would give Aragorn something to use to show Sauron he is the King, when he looks into the Palantír (if the Dunedain got there early enough).

Here's how part of the scene could go, working in an ultra-cool line that was sadly left out of the movie: Someone names the group "Rangers" then Pippin or Merry asks "Rangers?! But Butterbur said they were dangerous?" Gandalf: "Dangerous! So am I, more dangerous than anyone you will meet unless you are taken alive before the throne of the Dark Lord himself..."

Maybe PJ thought a little band of Dunedain would look (to those who haven't read the books) too much like the little band of Elves showing up at Helm's Deep. But then the huge mass of chlorine (as my Chemistry teacher thought it to be) wasn't much different was it?

Personally, I like pretending that the elven smiths who reforge Narsil were Elladan and Elrohir, and Aragorn's standard bearer at Morannon was Halbarad (true, Halbarad died at Pelennor, but he was the standard bearer.) Why PJ didn't think of these loopholes, I don't know.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Elianna: Very good about BB's comment. I must have subconsciously
recalled that comment (one of the kinds of nice bits which do recur in the movies).
And isn't it noteworthy how much generally superior bits of LOTR book are
to PJ's scripwriters additions/changes generally (although, of course,
many are understandably needed.

Also, it could have been a nice, brief emotional moment if Halbarad joined
Aragorn at Helm's Deep and was killed at the P.F. or at the Black Gate
protecting Aragorn from attack, with A. getting choked up over it.
(Of course, "There's no crying in Middle-earth battles!")
(Unless your uncle gets killed leading a cool charge, even if you then get
to be king). Woo, hoo!

[Nimrodel_9]

I completely agree with you. I was terribbly put out when the Grey Company wasn`t put in, but I can see the problems it would add to filming. Peter Jackson would have to find actors (not to mention, pay them) to fill in the roles. So I understand why he didn`t. It would also add more length to the movie. I say the more the merrier, but others might not agree with it. It`s the same with The Scouring of the Shire.

[Encaitare]

I'm trying to recall if there is any mention of other rangers in the movies.
I would think a nonbook movie viewer would think he was "The Last of the
Dunedain" to paraphrase an old movie.

They're not mentioned by name or anything, but the movie-viewers would know he's not the last (if they remember one humble line from early in FotR): Butterbur says of Strider, "He's one of them Rangers," which would imply that there are more Rangers out there.

[The Saucepan Man]

Is there anybody else out there who felt highly disappointed with the lack of the Grey Company and Elrond's sons from RotK.

It's not something that I lose a lot of sleep over.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Please elaborate on your point as the validity of an argument is severly damaged if there is little of your own opinion in it.

[Elessar Telcontar]

Don't get me wrong I'm pleased that you have given you're opinion 'The Saucepan Man' but I'd be more impressed if it actually had a point. Rather than just telling us that you wasn't bothered why don't you explain why you felt it wasn't necessary...

[The Saucepan Man]

My point is self-explanatory. It does not overly concern me that the Dunedain were not present in the LotR films.

But, since you ask ( ), I sometimes find myself rather mystified by the constant raising of myriad very minor issues in respect of the films that really have no bearing on their quality as films and yet are inflated to the level of major errors on Jackson’s part. Don’t get me wrong, although I greatly enjoyed the films, I do not regard them as perfect. There are a number of major issues I have with them, but these relate mainly to their internal consistency/credibility rather than their faithfulness to the books. The fact that the Dunedain were absent (or that Bombadil or Beregond or the Scouring for that matter were absent, or that Faramir’s hair was the “wrong” colour) really doesn’t affect my enjoyment of them at all as films. And, given that I regard them as a major achievement (and also given their overwhelming success as films) I tend to find such minor criticisms slightly churlish.

Sorry to bring this up on your thread, Elessar Telcontar, since it a point in which others are obviously interested. My comments are purely my own opinion on the matter and apply to many more threads than this one and many more posts than those here. Maybe one day I’ll get round to starting a new thread on the issue …

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Thanks for elaborating on your point, I understand your opinion now.

[HerenIstarion]

edit: cross-posting with SpM and Gothbogg. Yet, though I haven't seen two preceeding posts, my points stand unchanged. end of edit

****

SpM, there is a saying in Georgian which may be rendered as 'it is best for the homeland to have children stronger then fathers'. I mean, that is what you mods bargained for - is it strange to find the sibblings snap at you for being off topic? I'd feel as proud father if I were you.

But for one point:

Let me turn to you, dear Elessar and Gothbogg. Be so kind as to review the title of the thread. It runs merely as 'the Dunedain?'. I.e., no imperatives to explain one's self in the title. Now the initial post:

Originally Posted by Elessar Telcontar

Is there anybody else out there who felt highly disappointed with the lack of the Grey Company and Elrond's sons from RotK?

No imperative to give explanations either - the answer to that question is merely 'yes, I'm dissapointed', or 'no, I'm not'. So technically, you were not correct in jumping at poor poor Saucey, not at all, no, kind Sirs!

By the way, Welcome to the Downs. I know for sure your threads will be interesting, fascinating and with exact nomenclature to run along their excellent contents

And, not to stray off topic myself:

Yes, I'm dissapointed too, but not much. So, it may be said as: It's not something that I lose a lot of sleep over

I lost a lot more sleep over Elrond coming to Aragorn having to urge him to war and press him up with Arwen whose (excuse messed up quotation) 'life is passing as long as ring exists'. Let me lay my hands on screenplay author, please.

cheers

[Elessar Telcontar]

I'd like to say that as for your sarcasm towards my 'future' threads, if you aren't interested then don't post, instead of giving me the inpression that there is no point at all in even taking part in this forum. I do feel that maybe a little encouragement can go a long way and that my threads may improve if given the chance to do so
As for The Saucepan Man I do sincerely apologise for snapping thats not how I wanted it to sound, I was just curious as to what you thought and wanted you to elaborate...

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Elessar Telcontar

I'd like to say that as for your sarcasm towards my 'future' threads, if you aren't interested then don't post, instead of giving me the inpression that there is no point at all in even taking part in this forum

It was not sarcasm, honest. The sarcastic smiley is this: . Now that sentence of mine we are discussing now was ended with - big grin - expression of merriment, and - expression (I learned it, I did - after watching 'I, Robot',) of trust between humans.

Though I'm ready to admit my wording may have been better. My sincerest apologies in my turn. Let me rephrase it:

Welcome to the Downs. I hope (and tend to be sure you will live up to my expectations) your threads will be interesting and fascinating. I also hope (and tend to be sure you will live up to my expectations) that the contents of said threads will answer to their titles.

Originally Posted by Elessar Telcontar

I do feel that maybe a little encouragement...

I thought I were doing just that, in a kind of humorous way. You know - good intentions, pavement for the certain road and so forth and so on.

I will try to change my ways hence. (Can't add up more than three smileys to a post, imagine smiley here. The one of the chap in a hat with a pipe)

cheers

[Elessar Telcontar]

O.K, I'm glad we got that sorted out, see it just goes to show how we can all misinterpret how someone means to say something on these god-forsaken computers...Anyhow, very sorry, can we be friends?

[HerenIstarion]

Of course

With that in mind, let us bring this thread back to its topic:

Is there anybody else out there who felt highly disappointed with the lack of the Grey Company and Elrond's sons from RotK

Please provide your reasons for such a dissapointment/admiration too

Now post on...

[The Saucepan Man]

Oops, I seem to have provoked somewhat of a kerfuffle here.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

... is it strange to find the sibblings snap at you for being off topic?

I'd say on-topic but insubstantial.

Thank you, HI, for your valiant attempt to defend my original post. But Elessar and Gothbogg were quite right to pick me up on it. Posts expressing a mere opinion without explanation are best avoided. Blame it on being at work and an undue bout of peevishness.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I lost a lot more sleep over Elrond coming to Aragorn having to urge him to war and press him up with Arwen whose (excuse messed up quotation) 'life is passing as long as ring exists'.

Now the latter is indeed, in my view, a valid criticism as tying Arwen's life to the fate of the Ring simply doesn't make sense within the context of the film. But that's for another topic ...

Originally Posted by Elessar Telcontar

... see it just goes to show how we can all misinterpret how someone means to say something on these god-forsaken computers.

Indeed. As illustrated by the fact that, while HI uses " " to denote sarcasm, I use it to denote either exasperation or self-effacement, depending on the context. Danged smilies - can't rely on them ...

Right, as HI suggests, let's get back on topic. My apologies for having provoked this impromptu (albeit slightly iluminatory) detour.

[Numenorean]

Greetings & welcome Elessar and everyone,

Is there anybody else out there who felt highly disappointed with the lack of the Grey Company and Elrond's sons from RotK?

I felt more dissappointed about their non-appearance than just about anything else in PJs flawed masterpieces.
From my understanding (which can be scanty at best) the Dúnedain of the North & Elronds sons (clearly the most fell Elves of the 3rd Age) were crucial to the military, morale and execution of Aragorns and the Wests' victories - post Helms Deep. Aside from that, I felt their appearance and continued presence (in the books) revealed compelling insights into Aragorns character and mindset that gave him real human depth and helped to flesh him out as a man. The valour of Arnor, old friendships re-newed, fierce loyalty earned through hard respect, Aragorns yearning for Arwen - are just some of the things I gleaned from his interaction and relationships with the Grey Company. By their very appearance they also showed Aragorn actually does have a noble clan of people in his own right - the movies made him seem like a race of one.

[Bêthberry]

Indeed. As illustrated by the fact that, while HI uses " " to denote sarcasm, I use it to denote either exasperation or self-effacement, depending on the context. Danged smilies - can't rely on them ...

Oh dear, yes! As soon as I read that comment from HI I immediately worried that I have sent messages of sarcasm to people. I too tend to use that smiley for exasperation or self-effacement. Guess I should work on letting my words do the talking, even if it takes a thousand of 'em.

I tend to agree with Sauce's comment above that one must consider the films as movies (I make a distinction here, which I think might be one which derives from my northern North American dialect ) rather than as straight forward representation of the books. Sometimes I think it works best to omit passages if overall the general tone and tenor of the ethos of the books is respected. I think omitting Tom and the Barrow Downs is understandable but it placed certain restrictions on the Bree/ Prancing Pony scene.

To me, including Aragorn's kin would not have improved the depiction of Aragorn much to my mind because the actor did not create a stunning sense of 'a once and future king' to me. Seeing Aragorn awoken from his dream by his horse kissing him really ruined the character for me and I don't think any inclusion of details from the book could have helped.

And, welcome to the Downs, Elessar Telcontar. I almost read your screen name as Estelyn Telcontar at first!

[Groin Redbeard]

In the Return of the King, didn't a company of Dunedain Rangers over take Theoden, along with the rest of the soldiers from Helms Deep, while he was traveling back to Edoras. I don't remember what happened to them.

I would have liked to have seen that part in the movie.

[Sauron the White]

The sons of Elrond and the inclusion of more Rangers would have been fine additions to the film.

[Groin Redbeard]

I believe the sons of Elrond were in the first movie at the council. They just sat by Elrond during the council, but I don't think they had that much of a part in the books either.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It was part of PJ's 'simplification' of the story so as to not overtax the feeble minds of the ticketbuying public, to excise all mention of Arnor from the movies whatsoever. The *only* appearance is in the EE-only Aragorn/Eowyn scene, where she realises he is one of the Dunedain Rangers, and he mentions that the North-Kingdom was long destroyed. But nothing which otherwise ever suggests that Gondor had a twin realm, or who the Rangers were.

Stll, I hate that far less than Elves at Helm's Deep!

[Sauron the White]

PJ's simplification?????????? Do you have any idea how layered and intricate these films were compared to average Hollywood fare? Some things had to be left out simply because Jackson did not have 30 hours to make the story.
I think of just a few scenes off the top of my head to disprove such a charge. Aragorn singing about Luthien - something which meant nothing to probably 95% of those who saw the film but was a nice gesture towards layering the tale with actual Middle-earth history.

IF Jackson wanted to simplify he could have done what many would have done and made Denethor simply the King of Gondor and not wasted any space or time on the whole steward backstory and what it meant. But he didn't do that. He showed respect for the history of Middle-earth.

He certainly did not simplify the architecture and settings and went to great time and expense to get it right to be faithful to Middle-earth.

Simplification indeed!!!