Evil

[Avie]

Do you think Tolkien conceptualised evil as being just an absence of good or as an actual force that needs to be resisted? I have always wondered about the Elves....willing to offer good will and best wishes but not actually involving themselves in the fight for Middle Earth (at least in the Third Age conflict). For that reason I never have particularly liked Elves. Elrond knew the way to Mount Doom...he'd been there before...but did HE offer to take the Ring there?If not why not? what had he to lose?
Nancing over to the Havens and abandoning ME to it's fate is the evil of omission...not intentional but wrong nevertheless.
Thoughts?

[Boromir88]

Elrond knew the way to Mount Doom...he'd been there before...but did HE offer to take the Ring there?If not why not? what had he to lose?

Elrond was smart in not taking the ring. Having one of the 3 elven rings (Gandalf and Galadriel the others), they had all desired to take the one ring and use it to overthrow Sauron, but they were smart enough to resist the temptation. They had the power to see the ring, and resist it's temptation (as we get to see with Galadriel) but wielding it would be a dreadful decision. So that is why Elrond could not wield the ring, or take it himself to Mount Doom. Also, it would be far less noticeable if 2 hobbits tried to sneak into Mordor then one of the more powerful elves left on Middle-Earth. That is a reason for Legolas being chosen to represent the elves, because someone like a Glorfindel or Gildor would be too powerful and could very easily be noticed. Where Legolas, being from a lesser race, Sindarin, he wouldn't be noticed as easily.

Nancing over to the Havens and abandoning ME to it's fate is the evil of omission...not intentional but wrong nevertheless.
Thoughts?

I don't see it as "wrong," the elves were fading, as you had the power of men begin to grow and the strength return other races like dwarves, ents, elves began to fade or decline. And after all, who would not want to go to Valinor? Valinor would be a much more beautiful place then ME, by far.

I will say there are a couple times where elves do seem a bit arrogant, where they seemed like they were better then everyone else. I don't know just some of the things Gildor said to Frodo, like "hobbits are dull," which is quite true, but that line just seemed to me like Gildor was full of himself.

[Zebedee]

Tolkien shows evil as a force to be resisted. The ring is evil, a force of its own, not just an abscence of good.

[Legolas]

Tolkien shows evil often as the desire to take God's place (whether on a large or small scale)...in Morgoth and Sauron, for example, this principle is taken to maximum magnitude in the thought that one has the capabilities to supplant the Creator and still be able to sustain the world he created. Aule does something similar but apparently less offensive when he thinks he can create his own lifeforms apart from Eru's children.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Avie

I have always wondered about the Elves....willing to offer good will and best wishes but not actually involving themselves in the fight for Middle Earth (at least in the Third Age conflict). For that reason I never have particularly liked Elves. Elrond knew the way to Mount Doom...he'd been there before...but did HE offer to take the Ring there?If not why not? what had he to lose? Nancing over to the Havens and abandoning ME to it's fate is the evil of omission...not intentional but wrong nevertheless.

As a Peredhel myself, I would like to defend my kindred.

Yes, it does seem unfair that the Elves are not being very directly and physically involved with resisting the Enemy. That's at least what most see as they read LotR. But looking at the Appendix, we can see that the Elves had their share of the fighting in the War of the Ring. They did not march out to meet with them, but as Legolas said in RotK, the Enemy marched out into their lands, or something. Three times Lothlorien was attacked as Gondor and Rohan were, and they had to stay there to defend themselves. And earlier in the Third Age, the Wise had attacked Sauron at Dol Guldur.

But if we will look at it, they have fought more wars than anyone had. Most, if not all, of them have been around in the First Age, when they strove against Morgoth and the might of Angband. Whereas what has been left for the people in the Third Age is merely his servant, Sauron. They deserve whatever rest they can get in Middle-Earth after their long toil against the Enemy's predecessor. But even so, they still did their part in the War, insignificant though it seems (but certainly not so). And though they had the choice to leave ME earlier on, they chose to stay and continue what they have begun.

[Son of Númenor]

Evil in Tolkien's world seems to me, ultimately, to be the act of setting one's self up in direct opposition to the will of the Creator - or to be knowingly subservient to one who does this. In the former category we have, as Ulmo said, Sauron and Morgoth - and, I would posit, Saruman as well. In the latter, examples that spring to mind are the Balrogs, orcs, Gríma Wormtongue, et al.

In defense of Elrond, - and, for that matter, all the Elves of the Third Age besides Legolas - it seems a truth universally acknowledged by the 'good guys' in Lord of the Rings that the Elves were 'declining' - that it was the time for Men (and, as Elrond says in the "Council", for Hobbits) to take the proverbial reigns. The Eldar, after all, had battled Sauron and Morgoth for ages, and had grown weary of fighting - and of mortal lands. What better way to pass the torch than to lend guidance and help to Men at need, (without seeking to dominate or interfere) during the battle that could prove definitive of Men's 'time' as the stewards of Middle-earth?

[Boromir88]

Yes, I think just the presence of Elladan and Elrohir at Pelennor fields helped "men" out a good deal, and as Son of Numenor puts it "not seeking to dominate or interfere," the presence of Elladan and Elrohir show that. I mean as the best orc fighters in the third age they help out a great deal, but yet its not a "dominating" presence.

[HerenIstarion]

You might find it interesting to look at the following:

Shadow of the Past
Tolkien and Monsters

cheers

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Avie

but did HE [Elrond] offer to take the Ring there?If not why not?

I suppose because:

Originally Posted by Gandalf to Frodo

Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought

Fate (or Eru). In The Shadow of the Past, link provided above.

Besides, see The Role of Fate in Middle-Earth

cheers

[Mithalwen]

Well as has been mentioned - Elrond would have been far too conspicuous and -after all Gandalf was already going - but also Elrond and Galadriel keep their lands safe by the power in themselves and of the rings they wield. If Elrond leaves, Rivendell is vulnerable and the quest is no more likely to succeed.

Avie - I really thing you are being grossly unfair to Elrond - if he was only concerned about himself he would have "nanced" off to the Havens long ago, and rejoined his beloved Celebrian. HE stays to maintain Imladris as a last stronghold and refuge - open to all the free people of ME not just the Noldor. Given that the whole mess was caused by not following his advice, it is quite decent of Elrond to get invcolved at all...

[Boromir88]

Mithalwen SOOOO true, good point about Elrond and Celebrian. Also, yes as you mentioned not just Noldor elves, but Elrond showed great respect to dwarves (as we get to see with Gloin), as well as to all peoples. I love how he was just an "I hate everything guy" in the movie...

"who will you look to when we are gone, dwarves hide in their mountains seeking riches they suck, men are weak, they're blood is spent they suck, heck I even hate my own people, might as well just bow to Sauron now."

[Mithalwen]

" ...and you can't even trust the Istari .. and I have suspicions that my Ma in Law is a power junkie" .. no wonder he is starting to drink In the Council, Elrond seems to have fallen out of a headache pill advert "Why do all these shouty people have to come to MY house" Yeah ..... I would have booked a one way ticket to Valinor long ago .... Poor guy - survives a life that could keep Jerry springer and Oprah going for ever, founds a refuge and he still gets it in the neck..

"Well Jerry, My dad was the child of a mixed marriage and he became a refugee aged seven when his home was destroyed. His grandfather was killed and his parents went west to seek help and were never heard of again. My mom lost her entire family when her home was also destroyed - my parents had a lot in common - and when my twin brother and I were still small, distant cousins attacked our home and kidnapped us. My Dad became a star and my mom turned into a giant bird. Then my brother and I had to choose whether to be elves or men. My brother chose to be a man and various of his descendents have been freeloading off me ever since. My last remaining relative was killed in front of me in a war in Mordor. At last things get better and I finally met a woman who understands me and we have a nice house and 3 fine children. Then guess what she gets captured by orcs! My sons are only interested in killing things and my daughter wants to marry one of my brothers descendants...... I have spent my life trying to counteract evil and what thanks do I get ..."