Was the Witch-King based on Macbeth? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gothbogg the Ripper · 09-13-2004, 09:09 AM

Whilst reading the Return of the King I noticed something odd...
The Witch-King was boasting about how invincible he was in front of Eowyn, his line; "Thou fool! No living man may hinder me!" sounded very familiar from someone else, Macbeth, yep that's right: El Drunko Shakespearerio is at it again, his character boasts in front of Macduff and Young Siward in much the same way so the question is; Is the Witch-King partly based on Macbeth?
That's for you to decide.

Mithalwen · 09-13-2004, 10:34 AM

Tolkien, was not as great a fan of Shakespeare as most people are but the Ents are certainly influenced by Macbeth - he wanted if I remember aright trees that really went to war. Certainly the prophercy that inspires false confidence is a shared feature .... but I don't think the maker of the prophecy (glorfindel) was inspired by the 3 hags

Bêthberry · 09-13-2004, 11:54 AM

Be not hasty in your decision. Perhaps you can pop over to Lush's thread on this topic: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-13-2004, 11:54 AM

See here for further thoughts on parallels between LotR and Shakespeare's works:

Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings

Edit: Snap, Bb.

Mithalwen · 09-13-2004, 12:08 PM

What a useful link - and in Stereo. I am so glad to discover the true origin of the curse of the Scottish play. LOL

Gothbogg the Ripper · 09-17-2004, 06:27 AM

Oh dear, this thread has flatlined.

Elessar Telcontar · 09-29-2004, 05:46 AM

Damn, has this thread finished...? I was just about to give my wisdom on the subject! Oh well, better luck next time I guess...

Gothbogg the Ripper · 09-29-2004, 05:48 AM

Oh, thank God someone answered it at last, I was getting worried there for a second. This thread is still open, I used the term "flatlined" due to the fact that no one really replied to it, what were your thoughts then? Please reply, this was my first ever thread and it completely bombed!!!
(Several hours of weeping, rocking back and forth combined with a session of deranged warblings)

Encaitare · 09-29-2004, 03:28 PM

To bring another aspect of Macbeth into this, there is a line from it: "Fair is foul, and foul is fair." Remind anyone of Strider?

(Just a note: I have not read Macbeth yet and just came across the line, so I don't know what context it is used in or anything. Just thought it was interesting.)

Gothbogg the Ripper · 09-30-2004, 02:46 AM

You know, I never actually thought of that.
There could be similarities between the "Foul is Fair" bit and what Tolkien ( the better writer by the way) wrote; "All that is gold does not glitter".

Gurthang · 10-15-2004, 08:33 AM

A bit of rambling about that line...

Being still in High School, I am forced to study those works that are considered by most to be "classics". Fortunately, we are in the middle of MacBeth, so maybe I can offer some insight.

It is the three witches who say, "Fair is foul, and foul is fair". They were reffering to their own evilness. They stated that everything that was truly fair, they thought was foul. And anything that was really foul, they enjoyed.

Since this case goes to the bad side of the line's possible interpretations, I doubt Tolkien used this to describe Aragorn.

As far as the witch king is concerned, he was boasting about his own strength. MacBeth, on the other hand, was counting on the witches prophecies. They had told him something to the effect of "no man born of woman shall harm thee". In the end it turns out to be a riddle (or so my teacher says,... haven't got that far myself yet.), but he was assuming that no man could kill him. So the similarities are there, but I don't think its enough to say Shakespeare influenced Tolkien.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-15-2004, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurthang

As far as the witch king is concerned, he was boasting about his own strength. MacBeth, on the other hand, was counting on the witches prophecies.

Actually, there was a prophecy concerning the Witch-King's fate. Following the defeat of the forces of Angmar, Glorfindel holds back Earnur from pursuing the Witch-king, saying:

Quote:

Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far of yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall. (Appendix A)

Whether the Witch-King was aware of this prophecy, or whether he was just boasting of his invincibility, is not clear.

Encaitare · 10-15-2004, 01:16 PM

Thanks for explaining that, Gurthang.

Gurthang · 10-19-2004, 03:19 PM

Ah, very true Saucepan Man. I hadn't remembered that prophecy. Thank you for pointing that out.

By the way, that's another similarity: the prophecy about the witch-king's death and the one about MacBeth's death.

09-13-2004, 09:09 AM	#1
Gothbogg the Ripper Wight Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southend,U.K Posts: 113	Was the Witch-King based on Macbeth? Whilst reading the Return of the King I noticed something odd... The Witch-King was boasting about how invincible he was in front of Eowyn, his line; "Thou fool! No living man may hinder me!" sounded very familiar from someone else, Macbeth, yep that's right: El Drunko Shakespearerio is at it again, his character boasts in front of Macduff and Young Siward in much the same way so the question is; Is the Witch-King partly based on Macbeth? That's for you to decide.

09-13-2004, 10:34 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Tolkien, was not as great a fan of Shakespeare as most people are but the Ents are certainly influenced by Macbeth - he wanted if I remember aright trees that really went to war. Certainly the prophercy that inspires false confidence is a shared feature .... but I don't think the maker of the prophecy (glorfindel) was inspired by the 3 hags __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-13-2004, 11:54 AM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	See here for further thoughts on parallels between LotR and Shakespeare's works: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings Edit: Snap, Bb. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

09-13-2004, 12:08 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	What a useful link - and in Stereo. I am so glad to discover the true origin of the curse of the Scottish play. LOL __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-17-2004, 06:27 AM	#6
Gothbogg the Ripper Wight Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southend,U.K Posts: 113	Oh dear, this thread has flatlined. Last edited by Gothbogg the Ripper; 09-29-2004 at 04:15 AM.

09-13-2004, 11:54 AM	#3
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,997	Be not hasty in your decision. Perhaps you can pop over to Lush's thread on this topic: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings

09-29-2004, 05:46 AM	#7
Elessar Telcontar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 12	Damn, has this thread finished...? I was just about to give my wisdom on the subject! Oh well, better luck next time I guess... __________________ "Death cannot be prevented, only delayed..."

09-29-2004, 05:48 AM	#8
Gothbogg the Ripper Wight Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southend,U.K Posts: 113	Oh, thank God someone answered it at last, I was getting worried there for a second. This thread is still open, I used the term "flatlined" due to the fact that no one really replied to it, what were your thoughts then? Please reply, this was my first ever thread and it completely bombed!!! (Several hours of weeping, rocking back and forth combined with a session of deranged warblings) __________________ Thanks for abandoning me for three years guys. I really enjoyed being a total outcast. Last edited by Gothbogg the Ripper; 09-29-2004 at 05:51 AM.

09-29-2004, 03:28 PM	#9
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	To bring another aspect of Macbeth into this, there is a line from it: "Fair is foul, and foul is fair." Remind anyone of Strider? (Just a note: I have not read Macbeth yet and just came across the line, so I don't know what context it is used in or anything. Just thought it was interesting.)

09-30-2004, 02:46 AM	#10
Gothbogg the Ripper Wight Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southend,U.K Posts: 113	You know, I never actually thought of that. There could be similarities between the "Foul is Fair" bit and what Tolkien ( the better writer by the way) wrote; "All that is gold does not glitter". __________________ Thanks for abandoning me for three years guys. I really enjoyed being a total outcast.

10-15-2004, 08:33 AM	#11
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Fair is foul... A bit of rambling about that line... Being still in High School, I am forced to study those works that are considered by most to be "classics". Fortunately, we are in the middle of MacBeth, so maybe I can offer some insight. It is the three witches who say, "Fair is foul, and foul is fair". They were reffering to their own evilness. They stated that everything that was truly fair, they thought was foul. And anything that was really foul, they enjoyed. Since this case goes to the bad side of the line's possible interpretations, I doubt Tolkien used this to describe Aragorn. As far as the witch king is concerned, he was boasting about his own strength. MacBeth, on the other hand, was counting on the witches prophecies. They had told him something to the effect of "no man born of woman shall harm thee". In the end it turns out to be a riddle (or so my teacher says,... haven't got that far myself yet.), but he was assuming that no man could kill him. So the similarities are there, but I don't think its enough to say Shakespeare influenced Tolkien. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

10-15-2004, 01:16 PM	#13
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Thanks for explaining that, Gurthang.

10-19-2004, 03:19 PM	#14
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Ah, very true Saucepan Man. I hadn't remembered that prophecy. Thank you for pointing that out. By the way, that's another similarity: the prophecy about the witch-king's death and the one about MacBeth's death. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.