A Civil War? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 09-11-2004, 08:14 PM

It's been discussed what would have happened if Denethor had lived, would he have succumbed to Aragorn, or started a Civil War. But what about Faramir, if Faramir wasn't so wise do you think he could have summoned a Civil War, one strong enough to beat Aragorn, and stay in power as Steward?

Faramir, was arguably the most loved person in Minas Tirith. Especially Beregond, I think if Faramir was to start a civil war he would have the support from Beregond, and how far would Beregond have been able to sway the people of Minas Tirith? Also, you have Imrahil, who is Faramir's uncle, yet he didn't show any interest in challenging Aragorn's title as "king," he was actually quite happy the king had returned. But, being Faramir's uncle, Imrahil might have just stayed neutral, or even sided with Faramir. And there were still many people not at Minas Tirith during the siege, that might not have heard of Aragorn's "great battle deeds," and have sided with Faramir. So, it comes down to who do the people side with, their beloved, loyal captain Faramir, or this Aragorn who has shone great skill in the battlefield, and as a healer? When it comes down to it, I think Faramir had a much better chance of starting a Civil War then his, fallen Denethor. Luckily, Faramir was wise enough not to challenge the kingship, that's a reason I like him. So, your thoughts...

Son of Númenor · 09-11-2004, 08:53 PM

To quote the cliché: that's a pretty big 'if'. For if Faramir weren't as wise as he was, he probably wouldn't have been as admired by the people of Gondor. Assuming that Unwise Faramir was equally admired as the Captain of Ithilien we have come to know, however...

If, for some reason, he rebelled against Aragorn's authority, he probably would have succeeded - depending upon what stage the rebellion began. If Faramir decided to rally the people against Aragorn before the latter's coming into Minas Tirith, he probably would have been successful; Gondorians would likely have been easily convinced that Aragorn was no more than a wandering ranger, at most the last remnant of a dead line.

If, however, Faramir began an insurrection against Aragorn's authority after Aragorn had taken the thrown and Sauron was vanquished, it is more likely that he would have failed; King Elessar, who would at this point have been shown to be wise and benevolent (unless this is bizarro-Aragorn, too

), would have the people's favor even over a renowned captain.

*Walks off, imagining Faramir screaming hysterically while pouring oil on a roped-and-bound Aragorn*

*Comes back briefly, to ask, intrepidly, "Is there a point to this conjecture?*

Gil-Galad · 09-11-2004, 09:03 PM

Imrahil was teh prince of Dol Amroth and had a legitiment call to the throne of gondor, but his faith was with Aragorn from the first time they met... he might stayed neutral but i doubt it, the Sawn knights and himself would be Aragorns elites, Denethor would probaly just die a disgruntled old man... and if you think about it, i know its kinda off topic, but isn't faramir Imrahils nephew? seeing how denethor married Adrahils daughter, sister of Imrahil and Legolas said that Imrahil had elven blood in his veins, so faramir could have elven descent as well!

Boromir88 · 09-11-2004, 09:06 PM

Gil-Galad, yes Faramir does have a bit of Elven-Blood. If I got the names right here, Galador and Mithrellas, founded Dol Amroth. So all descendants of them, would have a bit of Elven-blood. Finduilas, was from Dol Amroth, of course her children being Faramir and Boromir, giving them elven-blood.

Lachwen · 09-11-2004, 09:44 PM

This is purely nit-picking on my part, but Galador was the son of Mithrellas, not her husband. Imrazôr was her husband. (They also had a daughter, Gilmith, but that isn't really important right now...

) Galador was then the first Prince of Dol Amroth, and we all know the rest of the story.

Tuor of Gondolin · 09-12-2004, 06:01 PM

About the original question, if Faramir had for some reason (picture him
hearing about PJ's Gandalf assaulting his father

) challenged Aragorn's claim the chances would have been strong for him being successful, or at least
fomenting a significant civil war. Just recall 1) the kinstrife and 2) the rejection by the Council of Gondor of Arvedui's clearly legitimate claim to the throne of Gondor. Of course, Tolkien got around this possibility by killing off Denethor and Boromir and making Faramir a "scholar-warrior" without the drive and ambition to be a king (or PM or president nowadays). And going as far back as Numenor "good" people were repeatedly prone to error, arrogance, etc. However, a big factor in Aragorn's favor, probably more then his leading the Army of the West to the gates of Mordor, would have been his role as "the Liberator of South Gondor."

Tuor of Gondolin · 09-12-2004, 06:29 PM

An additional thought, the role of Eomer could have been crucial. Imagine
Faramir seeks power after marrying Eowyn. What does Eomer do? Stay
neutral, support his sister and her husband against his best buddy, support
Aragorn against his sister's interests? And how would Imrahil be inclined?

By the way, while some are disinterested in this kind of speculation, I tend to
find "counterfactual" historical-type speculation can, on occasion, be
fascinating if done well. I found one book on counterfactual speculations on
World war II events well done (by professional historians and/or military
experts).

Voralphion · 09-12-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Imrahil was teh prince of Dol Amroth and had a legitiment call to the throne of gondor,

I don't think he did. I don't believe he was descended from Elendil, either through Isildur or Anarion/Melendil and so would not have had a claim to the throne of Gondor, or the Princes of Dol Amroth would probably made a claim long before.
I don't think the prospect of the people following Faramir is as clear cut as stated. The people were thrilled at the prospect of having a king as soon as Aragorn had arrived and healed the people in the houses of healing. The people wanted a king to return, and bring back Gondor's glory days, so it is possible they would have accepted anyone with a legitimate claim.
If a civil war did break out however and Rohan did intervene on one side, it would have been to support Aragorn. Eomer had a strong friendship with Aragorn and probably woul have supported him. I don't think the prospect of Faramirs relationship with Eowyn would have been a factor, because if Faramir was as power hungry as he would have to have been to start a civil war, I don't think he could have won over Eowyn.

Boromir88 · 09-13-2004, 12:54 PM

Tuor I like the scenario you have brought up, with the whole what would Eomer do? I happen to agree with Voralphion, that Eowyn wouldn't have fallen for Faramir if he was "power hungry." However, you can't help but think, hey maybe this is Eowyn's chance to get back at Aragorn, that is if a Civil War started. But, I don't see Eowyn as a revengeful type. And without the relationship between Faramir and Eowyn, Eomer would definately side with Aragorn.

Also, Lachwen, thankyou for the correction, if I say something wrong I would expect to be corrected.

09-11-2004, 08:14 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	A Civil War? It's been discussed what would have happened if Denethor had lived, would he have succumbed to Aragorn, or started a Civil War. But what about Faramir, if Faramir wasn't so wise do you think he could have summoned a Civil War, one strong enough to beat Aragorn, and stay in power as Steward? Faramir, was arguably the most loved person in Minas Tirith. Especially Beregond, I think if Faramir was to start a civil war he would have the support from Beregond, and how far would Beregond have been able to sway the people of Minas Tirith? Also, you have Imrahil, who is Faramir's uncle, yet he didn't show any interest in challenging Aragorn's title as "king," he was actually quite happy the king had returned. But, being Faramir's uncle, Imrahil might have just stayed neutral, or even sided with Faramir. And there were still many people not at Minas Tirith during the siege, that might not have heard of Aragorn's "great battle deeds," and have sided with Faramir. So, it comes down to who do the people side with, their beloved, loyal captain Faramir, or this Aragorn who has shone great skill in the battlefield, and as a healer? When it comes down to it, I think Faramir had a much better chance of starting a Civil War then his, fallen Denethor. Luckily, Faramir was wise enough not to challenge the kingship, that's a reason I like him. So, your thoughts...

09-11-2004, 09:03 PM	#3
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Imrahil was teh prince of Dol Amroth and had a legitiment call to the throne of gondor, but his faith was with Aragorn from the first time they met... he might stayed neutral but i doubt it, the Sawn knights and himself would be Aragorns elites, Denethor would probaly just die a disgruntled old man... and if you think about it, i know its kinda off topic, but isn't faramir Imrahils nephew? seeing how denethor married Adrahils daughter, sister of Imrahil and Legolas said that Imrahil had elven blood in his veins, so faramir could have elven descent as well! __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

09-11-2004, 09:06 PM	#4
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	A touch of Elven. Gil-Galad, yes Faramir does have a bit of Elven-Blood. If I got the names right here, Galador and Mithrellas, founded Dol Amroth. So all descendants of them, would have a bit of Elven-blood. Finduilas, was from Dol Amroth, of course her children being Faramir and Boromir, giving them elven-blood.

09-11-2004, 09:44 PM	#5
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	This is purely nit-picking on my part, but Galador was the son of Mithrellas, not her husband. Imrazôr was her husband. (They also had a daughter, Gilmith, but that isn't really important right now... ) Galador was then the first Prince of Dol Amroth, and we all know the rest of the story. __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

09-12-2004, 06:01 PM	#6
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	About the original question, if Faramir had for some reason (picture him hearing about PJ's Gandalf assaulting his father ) challenged Aragorn's claim the chances would have been strong for him being successful, or at least fomenting a significant civil war. Just recall 1) the kinstrife and 2) the rejection by the Council of Gondor of Arvedui's clearly legitimate claim to the throne of Gondor. Of course, Tolkien got around this possibility by killing off Denethor and Boromir and making Faramir a "scholar-warrior" without the drive and ambition to be a king (or PM or president nowadays). And going as far back as Numenor "good" people were repeatedly prone to error, arrogance, etc. However, a big factor in Aragorn's favor, probably more then his leading the Army of the West to the gates of Mordor, would have been his role as "the Liberator of South Gondor." __________________ Aure Entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 09-12-2004 at 06:08 PM.

09-11-2004, 08:53 PM	#2
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	To quote the cliché: that's a pretty big 'if'. For if Faramir weren't as wise as he was, he probably wouldn't have been as admired by the people of Gondor. Assuming that Unwise Faramir was equally admired as the Captain of Ithilien we have come to know, however... If, for some reason, he rebelled against Aragorn's authority, he probably would have succeeded - depending upon what stage the rebellion began. If Faramir decided to rally the people against Aragorn before the latter's coming into Minas Tirith, he probably would have been successful; Gondorians would likely have been easily convinced that Aragorn was no more than a wandering ranger, at most the last remnant of a dead line. If, however, Faramir began an insurrection against Aragorn's authority after Aragorn had taken the thrown and Sauron was vanquished, it is more likely that he would have failed; King Elessar, who would at this point have been shown to be wise and benevolent (unless this is bizarro-Aragorn, too ), would have the people's favor even over a renowned captain. Walks off, imagining Faramir screaming hysterically while pouring oil on a roped-and-bound Aragorn Comes back briefly, to ask, intrepidly, "Is there a point to this conjecture?

09-12-2004, 06:29 PM	#7
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	An additional thought, the role of Eomer could have been crucial. Imagine Faramir seeks power after marrying Eowyn. What does Eomer do? Stay neutral, support his sister and her husband against his best buddy, support Aragorn against his sister's interests? And how would Imrahil be inclined? By the way, while some are disinterested in this kind of speculation, I tend to find "counterfactual" historical-type speculation can, on occasion, be fascinating if done well. I found one book on counterfactual speculations on World war II events well done (by professional historians and/or military experts). __________________ Aure Entuluva!

09-13-2004, 12:54 PM	#9
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,518	Very nice Tuor I like the scenario you have brought up, with the whole what would Eomer do? I happen to agree with Voralphion, that Eowyn wouldn't have fallen for Faramir if he was "power hungry." However, you can't help but think, hey maybe this is Eowyn's chance to get back at Aragorn, that is if a Civil War started. But, I don't see Eowyn as a revengeful type. And without the relationship between Faramir and Eowyn, Eomer would definately side with Aragorn. Also, Lachwen, thankyou for the correction, if I say something wrong I would expect to be corrected.