The Mysterious 10th Bearer.

[Boromir88]

We know flat out 9 bearers of the ring, Sauron, Isildur, Deagol, Smeagol, Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, and Sam. But who is the mysterious 10th bearer, who changed the chain, the ring was on, in Rivendell? When Frodo wakes he notices a new chain on the ring. So who changed this? Whoever did could have been the 10th bearer, or maybe there is no 10th bearer, maybe a previous bearer (Bilbo or Gandalf), or soon to be bearer (Sam) did it.

The Shadow of the past quotes "The ring was in Frodo's pocket, connected by a chain, hanging from his belt." Then in Rivendell there is a new chain around it.

Here is my take on things.

First off, it would have to be somebody who knew Frodo had the ring (Gandalf, Elrond, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Bilbo). 2nd I doubt Gandalf or Elrond would bear the ring themselves, or allow anyone else to touch or even look at the ring. So in my opinion they are not a possibility. Then could it have been Bilbo? Would make sense, Bilbo knew Frodo had the ring, and he was one of the 4 people to actually visit Frodo (Gandalf, Elrond, Sam, and Bilbo). I would think however if Bilbo saw the ring, he would take it, and to give it up, it would take some prodding from Gandalf. In a situation like that I would think would have been recorded and documented so I don't think Bilbo. Leaves us Sam here, Sam is definately a high possibility since possibly if Gandalf and Elrond couldn't watch all the time, Sam was there watching Frodo he very well could have changed the chain. Two other possibilities were Merry and Pippin, them curious little hobbits, knew Frodo had the ring, but was never said whether they visited him or not. Or maybe a random elf over heard about the Ring and gave Frodo a new chain. Maybe an Elven-smith crafted Frodo a new chain and changed it, but being from Aule, and being craftspeople they would have probably been deeply seduced by the ring. There are an endless amount of possibilities so have it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Another interesting question is Why would this person change the chain?

(Unless I'm just forgetting that the text explicitly tells us that the chain needed repair. I certainly hope not!)

[Boromir88]

I've dug up the exact quote from "Many Meetings." The page won't do any good since there are many different editions. It is right around the part when Bilbo asks Frodo if he could see the ring.

LOTR: Many Meetings
When he had dressed, Frodo found that while he slept the Ring had been hung about his neck on a new chain.

[Morsul the Dark]

I believe it was Bilbo Sam or Gandalf Probably one of the latter seeing how much Bilbo craved it it would be difficult for him to return it to Frodo the reason I believe it is one of these three is because of a certain pattern

9 nazgul
9 fellowship members
and
9 bearers

[Voralphion]

We know flat out 9 bearers of the ring, Sauron, Isildur, Deagol, Smeagol, Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, and Sam

When exactly was Gandalf a bearer of the ring.? Unless I'm forgetting something, he made sure he never touched the ring as he was so afraid of it corrupting him. Also, I don't think Tom Bombadil could be considered a ring bearer as he only was in possession of it for such a short time, simply holding the ring does not make you a ring bearer. This would be the same for whoever put the ring on the new chain in Rivendell as they only would have needed to hold the ring momentarily.
As to why the chain was changed, perhaps it was done so it would be more secure and so he would be more mindful of it than when it was on the previous chain in his pocket.

[Encaitare]

Interesting point, the 9, 9, 9!

I think that it would probably have been Sam who switched the chain, but he was instructed to do so by Gandalf.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I don't think that Bilbo placed the Ring on the chain because the text in the chapter entitled Many Meetings states:

'Have you got it here?' (Bilbo) asked in a whisper. "I can't help feeling curious, you know, after all I've heard. I should very much like just to peep at it again.'

If Bilbo had handled the Ring in placing it on a chain and hanging it around Frodo's neck...why would he have asked this?

The ring was probably placed around Frodo's neck because he wasn't wearing his clothes while in bed...therefore no pocket to keep the ring in! Maybe the old chain wasn't long enough to go over his head.
I think that either Gandalf or Elrond switched it.

By the way...when did Gandalf bear the ring...I simply cannot remember a time that he did!!!

[Firefoot]

I think Boromir88 is refering to this incident:

Frodo took it from his breeches-pocket, where it was clasped to a chain that hung from his belt. He unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard. It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it.
Gandalf held it up. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold. "Can you see any markings on it?" he asked.
"No," said Frodo. "There are none. Iti is quite plain, and it never shows a scratch or sign of wear."
"Well then, look!" To Frodo's astonishment and distress the wizard threw it suddenly into the middle of a glowing corner of the fire.

Personally I don't think that some of these people can really count as "bearing" the Ring. Handling it, yes, but bearing it, no. Those who actually bore the Ring I would count as Sauron, Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam. I even hesitate to put Deagol on that list because he had it for such a short time.

But anyway, I would say that probably Elrond or Gandalf put the Ring on the chain; my opinion is that is was Elrond.

[Boromir88]

Morsul, your 9,9,9 comment was very interesting, I obviously didn't think of that.

The only reason I wouldn't say Elrond or Gandalf is because I would think they wouldn't want anybody, including themselves to handle the ring. I think it had to be someone who visited Frodo, who knew about the ring, and who changed it without Gandalf or Elrond knowing. I wouldn't think Elrond or Gandalf would allow anyone to change it, unless it was under there own supervision, and if this is true then why wasn't it written in the story? I believe it wasn't written because no body witnessed it happen except the person who did it, so therefor it was never known who did it.

I do agree with Morsul's 9,9,9 statement I think the most likely answer would be Sam. Maybe "bearing" the ring is too strong of a term. We can go with "handle."

[Osse]

I disagree. It would have had to have been Elrond, or one of his household, if not Gandalf. The Elves would have thought of the trials ahead (Elrond foresight again) and deemed that around Frodo's neck would be a safer place to stow the Ring. Gandalf touched the ring, or at least the chain it was on, at Bag End. What is to say he could not have picked it up by its original chain, and sliding the ends of the new chain through, clasp it onto young Frodo's neck. It could be done without touching the Ring at all. It would have taken great strength of will, thus I conclude it must have been Gandalf or Elrond.

I ask you, where is Sam going to get a chain of elven silver?

[Witch-King]

Perhaps it was referring to the same chain, but just now referencing the condition it was in.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I tend to agree with Firefoot. Would touching the ring constitute being a ringbearer? And Deagol certainly didn't put the ring on or he would evaded Smeagol. And Gandalf certainly didn't wear the ring but did touch it (ignore PJ having him not touch the ring directly at all).

Given that Gandalf could briefly handle it and that the ring only gradually exerted attraction it seems quite possible that Elrond could have (perhaps in concert with G), removed a chain and put another on. As much as anything, they could be a check and balance on the other.

[Boromir88]

Osse, good point, someone may not even have touched the ring. One could easily slip a new chain through and take out the old chain without touching the ring. However even touching the chain the ring is on I would still consider that as "handling" the ring, not directly but indirectly.

Sam could have gotten an elven chain from Bilbo, possibly. The only reason I dont think it's Elrond or Gandalf is because I would think they would have gone through extreme troubles to noy have anyone (including themselves) handle the ring. I would say this because anyone even "handling" the ring's chain could very well be easily tempted. I just personally believe they were very cautious about situations like these.

[Morsul the Dark]

I begin to think and I relize besides the 999 idea Elrond would be at one of the conspirators afterall why go through the trouble of putting it on a new chain and giving it back to Frodo unless you knew he would be the one to go otherwise they could have waited until the had formed the fellowship then put it on a new chain

[Boromir88]

Osse, now that I think about it, if you look at Galadriel's situation she resisted the ring. Elrond had his own powers and could resist like Galadriel did. However, he wouldn't dare to touch it, even Galadriel couldn't touch it. Your argument about "not-touching" the ring, to change the chain, could only point to one person then, Elrond.

Elrond or Gandalf would certainly, in my opinion, not allow anyone to touch it. However, Elrond and Gandalf had the strength to resist the ring, if they would have touched it, then it would have gotten interesting. Because, not even Galadriel would have been able to touch it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I have always felt that the immediate practical reason for the switch was what luthien-elven princess suggested: the fact that Frodo may have been wholly undressed or placed in a gown in the process of tending his wounds and lying him down to rest.

On a practical basis of course, placing the Ring about his neck next to his body rather than on a chain hanging from his belt and tucked in his pocket would have afforded additional protection. It would be harder for anyone to grab onto it and tug.

But I think there is symbolism intended here as well. It is one thing to have the Ring in Frodo's outside pocket and attached to his belt and another to have it literally hanging about his neck, nestled against his skin, on the inside so to speak. It is as if the thing is bearing directly on him, all its weight and influence. No longer on the outside, the Ring has become almost part of his body. It is just one more step on the road to Mordor. In the ensuing scenes, we will see it go further and actually get inside his head and how that will affect his behavior. All this is inevitable, yet there is a certain sadness to me in seeing it hanging about the Hobbit's neck, while he enjoys the sparkling Elven halls. Even here, the chains draw tighter.

As to who did the physical switch, Tolkien apparently did not want to let us know. Perhaps because that would have required him to depict some response from the character as to the pull and lure of the Ring. He intentionally let us see how Tom Bombadil was not influenced in the slightest when he picked up the thing. Plus, we have already seen how Bilbo and Gandalf had difficulty letting it go, and later on we will be shown how Sam dealt with the temptation. And Faramir will at least tell us how he thinks he would have reacted.

Apparently, Tolkien didn't want to "overuse" this device. And if he had simply mentioned the name in passing without further comment on how that person felt, we would be sitting here forever arguing how "X" could handle it and yet not take it, what "X" felt, etc. Instead, the focus of the temptation remains on poor Frodo!

As to whether JRRT knew who it was in his own head, we'll never know unless someone finds a clue in some unpublished letter tucked away somewhere.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think the best explanation would be that a chain was made (or found) in rivendell and then some one put it on Frodo while he slept. I think it was probably whoever it was that changed Frodo's clothing when he came in, he or she may have found it on the chain in his pocket and so replaced the chain if it was damaged when Frodo fell from Asfaloth.
Again we come into the whole issue of how you define a bearer of a ring of power. I never really considered Gandalf a bearer of the ring. He held the ring yes, but I do not believe that that necessarily means he 'bore' it. for example, if you pick up something from a shop shelf but do not buy (or steel) it, are you a bearer of that item? I do not think so.
This question all depends on how you classify a bearer. I think it would come down to any who had taken the ring as their own possession. in which case the bearers would be; Sauron, Isildor, Deagul, Smeagul, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam to a lesser extent as he felt forced to take the ring for his own.

Any comments?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Hookbill,

But isn't the central question that of "temptation" : how people react when they touch the Ring, the extent of the lure and how they resist that? How could someone change the chain for Frodo and yet not give in to the desire to slip it quietly onto his own pocket, or at least think about it?

The question of what is required to make one a "Ringbearer" is an interesting thing to discuss, but less pertinent to the storyline itself, at least in my head. Boromir, for example, was not a Ringbearer, never got to possess the thing, and yet it defined the outcome of his life. It was the lure of the Ring that made it dangerous to even come in sight of the thing, let alone to handle it physically.

[Boromir88]

Your Boromir statement is a good one.

I think for the answer of this question, you have to look ahead to Galadriel. Who was able to view the ring, and resist it, since she had the power, but touching it and being a ringbearer herself could have been disaster. Elrond and Gandalf both had that power, being ringbeares like Galadriel, to view the ring, but to touch it would cause them to want it. I have switched my opinion to Elrond and Gandalf, first because one probably wouldn't change the chain without telling the other. Secondly, if you look at Osse's point...

What is to say he could not have picked it up by its original chain, and sliding the ends of the new chain through, clasp it onto young Frodo's neck. It could be done without touching the Ring at all.

I agree with this, one could easily change the chain, and get rid of the old one, without touching the ring. But, to do so it would probably take atleast two people. Most likely answers would be Gandalf and Elrond, since they had the will to see the ring, but touching the ring would have been disaster.

I'd like to let everyone know, this question is unanswerable, but it's fun to debate, there is no right or wrong answer, theres more likely answers then other, but none are more right then others. It's based on speculation and opinion. It's just fun to debate.

[drigel]

for what its worth i would throw in my opinion hehe

I would exclude Elrond handling the ring because he himself is a ringbearer. The implications are (to me) obvious.

I could envision Gandalf handling the ring the same way as he did with Bilbo. Using an instument (like the envelope), he would be able to manipulate it out of the pocket, and replace the chain, possibly with the help of an Elrond staffer.

I love how this site makes me think about such scenarios!

[Encaitare]

But I think there is symbolism intended here as well. It is one thing to have the Ring in Frodo's outside pocket and attached to his belt and another to have it literally hanging about his neck, nestled against his skin, on the inside so to speak.

Truly awesome point, there. I can dig it ::thumbs up::

About the whole "what makes a bearer" thing, I mostly agree with Hookbill's list,

Sauron, Isildor, Deagul, Smeagul, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam to a lesser extent as he felt forced to take the ring for his own.

Except I don't think I would count Deagol because he only had it for a couple of minutes, and I think Sam would not be "to a lesser extent" because he showed remarkable bravery and resolve in taking the Ring.

[Mithalwen]

I agree with Osse.... it would be easy to change the chain without handling it directly and Elrond, who removed the tip of the Morgul blade from Frodo's shoulder would have been in very close proximity to the ring as it remained with Frodo... He probably wouldn't even have had to have had the chain specially made sinceI guess that anything manufactured by the Noldorin smiths would far out class the work of hobbits or men - only dwarves would mathc them - though of course the original chain could have been dwarvish given Bilbo's connection.

Also I think Elrond would have been the least vulnerable of the "great" to the one ring.... he would not risk "wielding" it but I think he could easily cope with such minimal contact as would be required. And it always seems to be in his nature to "do the right thing" regardless of personal feeling. Galadriel always had a desire for power and Gandalf, like Saruman, was charged specifically wih the overthrow of Sauron ... this I feel makes them more vulnerable.

Elrond did found Imladris but as a refuge not a kingdom and it was there he went rather than to Lindon after the last Alliance and though it would be a hollow title in the circumstances, he never claimed kingship, let alone High-kingship of the Noldor, which by Gil-galad's death he was surely entitled to.

Also more than anyone he knew the danger of the ring and the folly of Isildur's failure to destroy it ... had he fell victim for the lust for the ring on sight as Smeagol did - surely he would have been able to overpower Isildur at Orodruin...?

By the time of Frodo's arrival, Elrond is a healer not a warrior, a source of passive strength. My guess is that with the tweezers he used to remove the splinter of the Morgul knife he made the ring more secure.

And he had no more thought of taking it than he did at Orodruin - though what a lot of trouble that would have saved!.... but of course there would have been no book

[Encaitare]

True that, Mithalwen. There was a whole thread on why Elrond didn't take the Ring and destroy it when he had the chance; it was called "Elrond, why?" but you've probably seen it

You're right, though; of the Three bearers, Elrond is probably the least vulnerable. Yeah Elrond!

[Boromir88]

I couldn't agree with you more Mithalwen. I think you pretty much summed up what Elrond was all about. Elrond did many things to help a long the fellowship besides using strength of arms. He was a good counciler, he instructed Aragorn to take the paths of the dead, he sent a long his 2 sons to go fight with Aragorn, and him and Gandalf together constructed the main plan against Mordor.

I would like to go a little deeper in depth with Child of the 7th Age's point.

The question of what is required to make one a "Ringbearer" is an interesting thing to discuss, but less pertinent to the storyline itself, at least in my head. Boromir, for example, was not a Ringbearer, never got to possess the thing, and yet it defined the outcome of his life. It was the lure of the Ring that made it dangerous to even come in sight of the thing, let alone to handle it physically.

I think you are right, we could even "expand" upon the term "bearers." You have the physical bearers (Frodo, Isildur), then the mental bearers (Boromir) and you have both (Gollum, possibly Bilbo). The physical bearer are obvious ones who handled, the ring physically (or by touching it) and of course who "bore" the ring with intentions in their mind, whether to destroy it or not. Then you have the "mental bearers," like Boromir, who saw the ring, and thought about it through the whole journey of the fellowship, finally going mad and succumbing to it. He didn't have to "touch" the ring, for him to succumb to the ring. Then you have people who do both. One that stands out the most, Gollum, he bore the ring for a long time, then when he lost it it was always on his mind, and he was always trying to find a way to get it back. So, you could put him in both categories. Possibly Bilbo too, he had it, gave it up, but then he always wanted to "see" it again. I would think anyone who "bore" the ring, then lost posession of it in someway, would fall under both categories, physical and mental.

[Firefoot]

I would exclude Elrond handling the ring because he himself is a ringbearer. (...) I could envision Gandalf handling the ring the same way as he did with Bilbo.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with this. You say not Elrond because he is a ringbearer, and then you say that it might have been Gandalf, but you just defeated your own point because Gandalf too is a ringbearer (Narya).

[drigel]

I stand corrected folks! I am confused about "bearing" as well. I was operating under the assumption that the result of a ringbearer handling or holding the Ring would cause some sort of "awareness" of that instance by Sauron, of either who was doing the handling, or where it was occuring. hmmm interesting... This touches on other threads in here, but Sam ulitmately went to the West did he not? So, if bearing the Ring in fullfillment of the Oath that Frodo took at the council grants him permission, whereas Gollum, being a bearer would not have..?..? sorry I am a confused person

The only scenario i could dig myself out on my prior post is, - that Gandalf planned that situation beforehand (the prospect of having to handle the Ring at Bilbo's), and had "set aside" his ring, so that one or the other was being handled, but not BOTH at the same time..?..?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I love the symbolism aspect that Child of the 7th age brought up about Frodo and the ring. Awesome thought line!

Boromir88, Saruman would be a 'mental' ringbearer also, perhaps Deneathor...and the orc who groped the hobbits looking for the ring...another neat thought with which to put one's mind!

[Encaitare]

How would you say that Denethor is a "mental ringbearer?"

I recall that in the books it was not remembered in Gondor what "Isildur's Bane" was, and I don't seem to remember Denethor finding out about the Ring. I could, of course, be forgetting something major, and if I am, someone please correct me!

It is true, though, that Denethor felt the effects of the Ring through the anguish he experienced at Boromir's death.

[Morsul the Dark]

He also had the palantir do not forget and this would give him imformation and of course corrupt him slightly

I do hoowever have another theory elven smiths are a bit magical perhaps they fixed the chain while it was still upon the ring...highly doubtful but noone needed hold it if this were the case...or as movie gandalf did theyd hold it with those...(forgot the word) tongs! thats it they may have held it with tongs..

[drigel]

- - Elrond quzzing his people - "Who among us is without temptation?"

If Glorfindel really was the ressurected 1st age elf, mabye that was the real reason he was brought back.

[Mithalwen]

This is a good point especially since, in one of his last writings on ME Tolkien concluded that Glorfindel WAS the same person as Glorfindel of Gondolin returned exceptionally, on release from Mandos, to middle Earth quite probably specifically to aid in the fight against Sauron.....

And such was the power of Glorfindel that there is no doubt that he could have taken it had he desired it when Frodo was so vulnerable ....

It seems to me, in Middle Earth as in our own world that some have more desire for power than others - Glorfindel, while being mighty and valiant seems to have this in common with Elrond and Faramir that he did not desire power on his own account...

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Encaitare, read the chapter entitled "The Siege of Gondor". Immediately following Faramir's telling Gandalf of seeing Frodo, is text revealing Denethor's knowledge of the ring. He was upset with Faramir for letting Frodo and the ring go to Mordor instead of Gondor. I can't resist just one quote from this chapter:

For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.

(said Denethor)

[Encaitare]

::scurries off to get book, scurries back to computer, reads like mad::

Ah, thanks, Luthien. You removed some ignorance from the world just now

[drigel]

I agree with you Mithalwen. Having a part to play in that mission would indeed be a worthy reason for a return. If it was the 1st age character, I couldnt think of a better candidate for the handling. After all, the elf died, went to the Halls, and returned. That would surely alter ones perspective on power in the physical world!

[Boromir88]

Glorfindel learned a lot from his death to his "rebirth." His views on Tom Bombadil, is only a conjecture, but it would be one that I would say to be "true." This is the "conjecture" I was talking about, so everyone can see what I mean,

Erestor suggested to send the ring to Bombadil. Here's what Glorfindel had to say...

Lord of the Rings: Council of Elrond
"But in any case," said Glorfindel "to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or lote the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bomadil will fall, Last as he was the First; and then Night will come."

This is all conjecture by Glorfindel, but in his death, he grew wiser and smarter, so I will take his word for it, and think it's fairly accurate in what he has to say. What I'm saying is I think we can trust whatever Glorfindel has to say (which isn't the case for everyone), but to keep us on track.

I think Glorfindel is a possibility, definately, he has the strength to resist the ring. However, this is the similar case made about Galadriel, being that Galadriel and Glorfindel are both Noldor, and would be tempted by the wealth and power. I would think for Glorfindel to "wield" the ring, he would fall to those temptations. He, has the strength to "see" it and to resist the evil, but to wield it would be far too dangerous, very similar to case made about Galadriel. Then we go back to Osse's point of changing the chain without touching the ring, so Glorfindel is a possibility like Elrond or Gandalf.

[drigel]

Succinct post, Boromir88! I agree, Glorfindel would, once he donned the ring, would fall under the same conditions as any other elf/mortal at the time. But I think that (still under the 1st ager premise) his passage back to ME would transcend him beyond the typical Noldor sterotypes that are implied on this thread. He's the guy who wouldnt get to that point of temptation in my book

[Witch-King]

Kinda out on a limb here, but technically there were 11 bearers, if we are to believe the chain theory. You forgot Tom Bombadil!! He put the Ring on his finger to show it had no effect on him. Cool, but it puts us Nazgul out of a job, heh.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

First, I agree with others there are only six persons who ever really possessed or "bore" the One Ring: Its maker, Sauron; the man to whom it was his bane, Isildur, and four hobbits--Smeagol, Bilbo, Frodo and Sam.

I consider the best theory is that one or two unnamed elves who attended to Frodo and assisted Elrond, simply removed the Ring from Frodo's clothing at Elrond's instructions, put aside, and then the chain was either summoned or fashioned and brought to the sick room, at which time Elrond, Gandalf or again an unnamed elf fastened it around Frodo's neck. Most any Elf in attendance would not have known what it was and would not have been affected in any profound way like a man might if briefly handling the Ring. Bilbo couldn't have done. If Sam had, it would have been mentioned at some point. Elrond certainly could have done it, but likely would've wanted not to touch so unclean a thing. Gandalf obviously could have done it and was not opposed to momentary handling of it.

[The Saucepan Man]

This question all depends on how you classify a bearer.

Further thoughts:

To bear the One Ring

[Dûrbelethwen]

On the subject on how many were actual ring bearers, maybe the nine come in as the six bearers of the ring of power (Sauron, Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam) plus the three bearers of the Elven rings(Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf)