Why doesn't the Downs allow slash? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

E. Fester · 07-20-2004, 11:01 AM

Okay, I have a feeling I may have touched upon a sensitive topic, so don't shoot me, please. I've just been wondering for a while why the Downs doesn't allow slash fanfiction, and this seems the best place to ask. I've considered several different arguments, and none of them satisfy me.

Come and join me in my search for enlightenment!

... I don't know why I said that ...

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-20-2004, 11:08 AM

We don't allow slash stories for the simple reason that this is a family-friendly web site! Many members are young teens, and we don't want them to encounter inappropriate contents here. Not only slash, any stories containing explicitly sexual or overly violent references are not allowed. There are already enough sites that have that kind of story - those who are looking for them are welcome to go there.

E. Fester · 07-20-2004, 11:31 AM

I wasn't complaining about the lack of slash here, I was simply wondering why there was one. What about slash that does not contain explicitly sexual references?

Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, I just want to discuss.

Evisse the Blue · 07-20-2004, 01:59 PM

If you're asking for an opinion, well - I think it's because slash is in no way supported by cannon. That means it would be 'out of character'. And most of the good fanfictions I read (though I admit I haven't read too many) are consistent with Tolkien's vision without stretching it too far.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-20-2004, 05:00 PM

Erm? Excuse me?

*Fordim raises his hand from his little desk at the back of the room*

What is "slash"?

And while we're at it. . .what is a "swoon room"?

symestreem · 07-20-2004, 07:59 PM

Slash is homosexual romance in stories or movies. A 'swoon room' is a thread or forum for people to go and obsess over a particular actor. I just can't see why we don't have one of those at the Downs.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 07-21-2004, 05:41 AM

The better question is, why would anyone want to see slash on a Middle-earth site like the Downs? Slash is an intentional, gross misrepresentation of popular literary characters with the main purpose of shocking an unexpecting audience and/or actualizing a personal, prurient fantasy. With the Downs' focus on canon, which was free of both sexuality and sensuality, there is no place for slash.

E. Fester · 07-21-2004, 10:43 AM

Why is homosexuality gross? You could say that Legolas romances are intentional, gross misrepresentations of the character. Say someone wrote a slash piece free of sensuality and sexuality; why would that be banned? Slash does not shock any more than het romances do; most are neither better or worse written than the majority of het romances. I don't enjoy most of the romance stories I have read, but the Downs appear to be discriminating against slash.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 07-21-2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

A 'swoon room' is a thread or forum for people to go and obsess over a particular actor. I just can't see why we don't have one of those at the Downs.

Actually, we do.

All hail the Aragorn Swoon Thread!

**The Saucepan Man** · 07-21-2004, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Why is homosexuality gross?

No one is saying that it is. The point is that stories which involve Tolkien's characters in any overtly sexual situation, whether homosexual or heterosexual, are a gross misrepresentation of them as Tolkien's characters. They therefore have no place on the Downs, which is concerend with the subject-matter, style and essence of Tolkien's works.

Amanaduial the archer · 07-21-2004, 11:09 AM

What you're insinuating, E.Fester, is that the Downs is discriminating against gays? That isn't right - certainly I don't think there have ever actually been any comments about it in either direction. But some people don't feel comfortable with it, still - whether old fashioned or very religious, some people just don't find it an easy subject, and to be popular and fair, a forum has to avoid making any group of people feel uncomfortable.

Slash is usually obscene - you say what about slash that isn't too graphic, but the fact is that most slash is graphic: look up 'sblomie' in google, you'll see what I mean (IMPORTANT: if anyone has no filter on their computer and does not want to see anything disturbing, I highly recommend they do not do this. It's not pretty). This is the main part of why people actually find it enjoyable. That is not allowed on the Downs for the same reason that any too-graphic 'het' relationships, as you put it, are not allowed. Just look in the RPG forum.

Secondly, as has been said, it is out of character - even if it was not graphic. Legolas romances are out of character in just the same way - and so they are not allowed either! That is the point! Anything that severely alters the way a character behaves is not allowed on any Barrowdowns formal RPG (including the three Inns), whether relationships of any sort are included or not. Having Frodo and Sam together is not allowed in the same way that having Arwen and Frodo together is not, or in the same way that killing off Frodo in Cirith Ungol is not allowed, or having Merry suddenly turn into a vampire bat - it is simply not cannon.

The title 'slash' refers to the slash between the two character names - 'Frodo/Sam' (mainly it is male), or even e.g. 'Arwen/Galadriel'. The point is that is uses named characters - and makes them act, therefore, in a way that is out of sync with Tolkien (or whatever the origin of character may be). They are not merely gay relationships, not technically - slash could just as easily refer to 'Arwen/Merry', theoretically - this would be a heterosexual relationship, no? But it is still out of character and therefore not suitable!

So are we 'discriminating' against slash, or any sort of non-cannon behaviour? No, it is merely upholding the world of Tolkien and acting around it rather than smashing straight through it in an unnecessary and out of character fashion.

E. Fester · 07-21-2004, 11:47 AM

So romances have been entirely banned from the Downs? Ah. Good idea. Didn't know that. Feeling slightly stupid now

As a matter of fact, there have been some anti-gay comments in the review rooms in the past, from people who were very religious. And I understand why the Downs prefers to avoid making them uncomfortable. But it's likely that some of the visitors here are homo- or bisexual, and, speaking as one of that group, it irritated me when het romance was allowed and slash wasn't.

Some slash uses original characters (e.g. Frodo/Original Male Character), but there is very little of it. I don't think that romances are out of character, but only if they are not written in an out-of-character way. Oh, and I do know where the title 'slash' comes from

I tried looking for sblomie, but found nothing. It's not something I've heard of before. Oh well. Time for coffee ...

Amanaduial the archer · 07-21-2004, 12:00 PM

Ah, nooo, romance altogether isn't banned - crushes between RPG characters seem to crop up in nearly every game

Just not too deep.

I was referring to this forum mainly, rather than the fanfiction board. But I certainly agree - anti-gay is not acceptable. But that isn't quite the same.

Enjoy your coffee

Aylwen Dreamsong · 07-21-2004, 12:21 PM

Quote:

The restrictions about characters in The Shire apply in Rohan also: no magical or super-powered characters, no half-elven or half-dwarven or half-anything characters (who are rare in Tolkien and whose presence always fulfils a specific purpose in the story), no assassins or martial arts, no sexual flirtation, drunkenness or lewdness.

I had originally planned on just quoting about the sexual and lewdness rules observed in the RPG forums, but I posted the whole thing because all of it has to do with keeping things canon...and in many cases of fanfiction romances involving main characters, 'het' or slash, things are not canon and canon characters do not act canon. I think...I'm pretty sure...that fanfictions put on the Barrow-Downs used to be (before we started using the old forum, and I can't speak for that new development) read and reviewed for content, deciding whether or not they would be posted. I don't think they discriminate slash stories simply because they are slash, but because they are uncanon and did not follow the books. I'm sure uncanon 'het' stories would be given the same toss.

Quote:

As a matter of fact, there have been some anti-gay comments in the review rooms in the past, from people who were very religious. And I understand why the Downs prefers to avoid making them uncomfortable. But it's likely that some of the visitors here are homo- or bisexual

I've never seen anyone on the 'Downs (at least in the forums?) making rude comments about other people's sexuality. I'm sure they'd be talked to just like anyone else who posts inappropriately here. There are deeply religious members on this forum, yes, and I don't think that the goal of the Barrow-Downs is to keep them comfortable. I don't think the goal of the Barrow-Downs is to keep homosexual or bisexual members uncomfortable, either. As Estelyn said, this is meant to be a family-friendly website where people can discuss and explore Tolkien's world.

-Aylwen

***Sharkû*** · 07-21-2004, 02:25 PM

Those are the terms, take them or leave them.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 07-22-2004, 06:06 AM

The word gross in the phrase 'gross misrepresentation' means 'glaringly obvious' according to dictionary.com (and me, since that was my meaning). What is glaringly obvious is that E. Fenster is trolling for a conversation on sexuality, particularly homosexuality.

Why the Downs? I don't know. But the E. Fensters of the world always seem to drag through here eventually, looking for love in all the wrong places. As we've said (over and over again), making things true to J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth is our purpose here (with a few exceptions here and there). The good professor set a certain tone throughout his books, and we endeavor to keep that tone to the best of our abilities.

Though we no longer publish romances on the Downs, a Legolas romance, if well-written, would not be a misrepresentation at all, unless it was of a nature foreign to the books. There was not a speck of sexuality in the books, nor the faintest glimmer of same sex sensuality. Slash, which clearly focuses on these things, simply doesn't belong here.

As Sharkû said, that's just the way it is, take it our leave it.

07-20-2004, 11:01 AM	#1
E. Fester Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: This prison planet Posts: 10	Why doesn't the Downs allow slash? Okay, I have a feeling I may have touched upon a sensitive topic, so don't shoot me, please. I've just been wondering for a while why the Downs doesn't allow slash fanfiction, and this seems the best place to ask. I've considered several different arguments, and none of them satisfy me. Come and join me in my search for enlightenment! ... I don't know why I said that ...

07-20-2004, 11:08 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	We don't allow slash stories for the simple reason that this is a family-friendly web site! Many members are young teens, and we don't want them to encounter inappropriate contents here. Not only slash, any stories containing explicitly sexual or overly violent references are not allowed. There are already enough sites that have that kind of story - those who are looking for them are welcome to go there. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-20-2004, 01:59 PM	#4
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	If you're asking for an opinion, well - I think it's because slash is in no way supported by cannon. That means it would be 'out of character'. And most of the good fanfictions I read (though I admit I haven't read too many) are consistent with Tolkien's vision without stretching it too far. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

07-21-2004, 05:41 AM	#7
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	The better question is, why would anyone want to see slash on a Middle-earth site like the Downs? Slash is an intentional, gross misrepresentation of popular literary characters with the main purpose of shocking an unexpecting audience and/or actualizing a personal, prurient fantasy. With the Downs' focus on canon, which was free of both sexuality and sensuality, there is no place for slash. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

07-21-2004, 11:09 AM	#11
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	What you're insinuating, E.Fester, is that the Downs is discriminating against gays? That isn't right - certainly I don't think there have ever actually been any comments about it in either direction. But some people don't feel comfortable with it, still - whether old fashioned or very religious, some people just don't find it an easy subject, and to be popular and fair, a forum has to avoid making any group of people feel uncomfortable. Slash is usually obscene - you say what about slash that isn't too graphic, but the fact is that most slash is graphic: look up 'sblomie' in google, you'll see what I mean (IMPORTANT: if anyone has no filter on their computer and does not want to see anything disturbing, I highly recommend they do not do this. It's not pretty). This is the main part of why people actually find it enjoyable. That is not allowed on the Downs for the same reason that any too-graphic 'het' relationships, as you put it, are not allowed. Just look in the RPG forum. Secondly, as has been said, it is out of character - even if it was not graphic. Legolas romances are out of character in just the same way - and so they are not allowed either! That is the point! Anything that severely alters the way a character behaves is not allowed on any Barrowdowns formal RPG (including the three Inns), whether relationships of any sort are included or not. Having Frodo and Sam together is not allowed in the same way that having Arwen and Frodo together is not, or in the same way that killing off Frodo in Cirith Ungol is not allowed, or having Merry suddenly turn into a vampire bat - it is simply not cannon. The title 'slash' refers to the slash between the two character names - 'Frodo/Sam' (mainly it is male), or even e.g. 'Arwen/Galadriel'. The point is that is uses named characters - and makes them act, therefore, in a way that is out of sync with Tolkien (or whatever the origin of character may be). They are not merely gay relationships, not technically - slash could just as easily refer to 'Arwen/Merry', theoretically - this would be a heterosexual relationship, no? But it is still out of character and therefore not suitable! So are we 'discriminating' against slash, or any sort of non-cannon behaviour? No, it is merely upholding the world of Tolkien and acting around it rather than smashing straight through it in an unnecessary and out of character fashion. __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

07-20-2004, 11:31 AM	#3
E. Fester Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: This prison planet Posts: 10	I wasn't complaining about the lack of slash here, I was simply wondering why there was one. What about slash that does not contain explicitly sexual references? Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, I just want to discuss.

07-20-2004, 05:00 PM	#5
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Erm? Excuse me? Fordim raises his hand from his little desk at the back of the room What is "slash"? And while we're at it. . .what is a "swoon room"?

07-20-2004, 07:59 PM	#6
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Slash is homosexual romance in stories or movies. A 'swoon room' is a thread or forum for people to go and obsess over a particular actor. I just can't see why we don't have one of those at the Downs.

07-21-2004, 10:43 AM	#8
E. Fester Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: This prison planet Posts: 10	Why is homosexuality gross? You could say that Legolas romances are intentional, gross misrepresentations of the character. Say someone wrote a slash piece free of sensuality and sexuality; why would that be banned? Slash does not shock any more than het romances do; most are neither better or worse written than the majority of het romances. I don't enjoy most of the romance stories I have read, but the Downs appear to be discriminating against slash.

07-21-2004, 11:47 AM	#12
E. Fester Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: This prison planet Posts: 10	So romances have been entirely banned from the Downs? Ah. Good idea. Didn't know that. Feeling slightly stupid now As a matter of fact, there have been some anti-gay comments in the review rooms in the past, from people who were very religious. And I understand why the Downs prefers to avoid making them uncomfortable. But it's likely that some of the visitors here are homo- or bisexual, and, speaking as one of that group, it irritated me when het romance was allowed and slash wasn't. Some slash uses original characters (e.g. Frodo/Original Male Character), but there is very little of it. I don't think that romances are out of character, but only if they are not written in an out-of-character way. Oh, and I do know where the title 'slash' comes from I tried looking for sblomie, but found nothing. It's not something I've heard of before. Oh well. Time for coffee ...

07-21-2004, 12:00 PM	#13
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	Ah, nooo, romance altogether isn't banned - crushes between RPG characters seem to crop up in nearly every game Just not too deep. I was referring to this forum mainly, rather than the fanfiction board. But I certainly agree - anti-gay is not acceptable. But that isn't quite the same. Enjoy your coffee __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

07-21-2004, 02:25 PM	#15
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Those are the terms, take them or leave them.

07-22-2004, 06:06 AM	#16
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	A gross misrepresentation of my meaning The word gross in the phrase 'gross misrepresentation' means 'glaringly obvious' according to dictionary.com (and me, since that was my meaning). What is glaringly obvious is that E. Fenster is trolling for a conversation on sexuality, particularly homosexuality. Why the Downs? I don't know. But the E. Fensters of the world always seem to drag through here eventually, looking for love in all the wrong places. As we've said (over and over again), making things true to J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth is our purpose here (with a few exceptions here and there). The good professor set a certain tone throughout his books, and we endeavor to keep that tone to the best of our abilities. Though we no longer publish romances on the Downs, a Legolas romance, if well-written, would not be a misrepresentation at all, unless it was of a nature foreign to the books. There was not a speck of sexuality in the books, nor the faintest glimmer of same sex sensuality. Slash, which clearly focuses on these things, simply doesn't belong here. As Sharkû said, that's just the way it is, take it our leave it. __________________ The Barrow-Wight