Regarding Gríma and Éowyn

[Encaitare]

I think that since the relationship between Gríma and Éowyn was more strongly displayed in the movies, I'm posting on the movie forum. I would like to know what other people's opinions are on a question I'm about to pose. That question is:

Would Gríma ever sink so low as to rape Éowyn?


I don't think he would, for the following reasons:

1. He is a coward and probably doesn't have the nerve to.
2. One of the things he loves the most about her is her rebellious and wild spirit, and to destroy her would be to destroy himself.
3. In his own strange way, he really does love her, and he would not take her unwilling-- he really wants her to love him all on her own.
4. He's not very physically strong anyway; she could probably overpower him if necessary.

I'd love to hear comments and arguments! Please respond and let me know what you all think!

~Encaitare

[ninlaith]

Grima and Eowyn are one of my favorite written couples from a novel. To me their relationship, actually his relationship with her, is the perfect example of wanting something you can't have. Having to watch that person everyday wallowing in your own self pity. I almost pity Grima. I probably would if he wasn't such a weasel.

[Boromir88]

Grima is much stronger (or maybe slyer) then a lot of people think. Talking about the books, Grima slit Saruman's throat, killing him. In the EE I understand Grima has some sort of a push/knock to end Saruman's life. But, as for Grima raping Eowyn? Ahhh the only way he would be able to overpower Eowyn would be if she was already dead.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

2. One of the things he loves the most about her is her rebellious and wild spirit, and to destroy her would be to destroy himself.
~Encaitare

To rape her would not be to destroy her. She is strong. It would hurt her very much, and then she would kill him. If her brother, uncle, etc., etc., didn't do it first, but I rather think she would. Or, he could die at the hooves of a horse.

[The Only Real Estel]

To me their relationship, actually his relationship with her, is the perfect example of wanting something you can't have

I wouldn't be suprised if not being able to have something he wanted would've been the motivation for him to take it anyway.

Ahhh the only way he would be able to overpower Eowyn would be if she was already dead

He's not very physically strong anyway; she could probably overpower him if necessary

Not necessarily. I don't think that Eowyn would've been able to stop him be means of her physical strength, Grima was stronger than her physically, in my opinion. Still, Eowyn probably could've at least escaped, if only because of her strong will. Whether Grima would ever have even attempted to rape her or not is really almost impossible to answer.

edit: corss-posting down to the minute with symestreem

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

Not necessarily. I don't think that Eowyn would've been able to stop him be means of her physical strength, Grima was stronger than her physically, in my opinion. Still, Eowyn probably could've at least escaped, if only because of her strong will. Whether Grima would ever have even attempted to rape her or not is really almost impossible to answer.

Eowyn could wield a sword and shield. Grima hadn't fought for a long time. This gives her an edge up in terms of strength.
Of course, if she was raped, she would never admit it.

[The Only Real Estel]

Eowyn could wield a sword and shield. Grima hadn't fought for a long time. This gives her an edge up in terms of strength.

Grima kept up by doing hundreds of pushups.
Seriously, yes Eowyn could wield a sword & shield, but just because Grima hadn't fought for a long time does not necessarily give Eowyn an edge in strength. I know several girls who can wield a sword, whereas I-who have never tried wielding a sword-am much stronger than either of them.

[Lhunardawen]

Physically, maybe Grima would be stronger than Eowyn. But I believe Grima's stronger power is his voice--a "talent" he has learned from his mentor, Saruman. Through his voice he deceived Theoden and brought about his untimely dotage. But do we dare think that he would be able to use this on Eowyn? I think not. Eowyn knew all along (or at least, she had suspicions) that Grima has influenced his uncle and he is to blame for Theoden's condition at the time. Surely she has harbored hatred for Grima and would think twice before listening to his words.

[Bombadil]

Are you kidding? Eowyn is Bad @$$! I have full confidence she'd kick Grima back to Isengard. Let's not forget she killed (half-killed) the witchking!

[Evisse the Blue]

In that scene from TTT with Eowyn and Grima near Theodred's death bed, when he 'sweet talks' to her (using some of Aragorn's words from ROTK, as it has been already remarked on this forum), don't you get the impression that she is almost about to give in? But then she suddenly recovers, as if breaking a spell. Grima surely had a way with words, and Eowyn was, although very courageous and noble, sad and lonely. So, I think MovieEowyn might, in an alternate universe, given in to Grima, in a moment of weakness, and be very angsty about it afterwards.
But, without her consent, I don't think he would have been capable of overpowering her. Even if he is stronger than her (which I doubt), she knows how to fight better than he does.

3. In his own strange way, he really does love her, and he would not take her unwilling-- he really wants her to love him all on her own.

I don't think he ever harboured such hopes (if he did, his sense of reality is really low), nor do I think that he loved her for who she was. What he felt for her was simply lust (like Morgoth felt for Luthien). The baddies is Tolkien's world don't seem to be capable of feeling love.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Remember that Grima was a Man of Rohan, not a cartoon gnome like movie-Grima. Anyway, Grima was extremely sly. He apparently poisoned Theoden remember? I'm sure he would resort to such devilry if he wanted to do the deed with Eowyn.

I don't think he'd ever pluck up the courage to do it though.

[Imladris]

As I recall, in both book and movie, Eowyn was the promised prize to Grima when Saruman killed Rohan. Therefore, maybe he was not expecting to overpower her himself but that grief would do it for him.

As Evisse pointed out, she was almost on the point of giving in (at least that's the impression I get) and that was when she was in grief.

Cheers,
Imladris

[Encaitare]

You think it was just lust? You could be right, but I, ever the hopeless romantic, think it was a bit more than that, even if Grima's sense of love is extremely twisted. He actually understands her, more so than anyone else and I personally think he loves her spirit as much as her body.

[Lalaith]

I found the 'almost giving in' scene in the film extremely distasteful and I think Tolkien would have hated it.
As for being offered to Grima as a prize when Rohan had been destroyed, BookEowyn would, I feel fairly confident, have fallen on her own sword before being dishonoured in such a way. And may well, of course, have finished Grima off while she was at it.

[The Only Real Estel]

Are you kidding? Eowyn is Bad @$$! I have full confidence she'd kick Grima back to Isengard. Let's not forget she killed (half-killed) the witchking!

But she didn't beat the Witch-King in an arm-wrestling tournament. No doubt Grima could've killed the Witch-King if he fell right in front of him (if not for the prophecy).
If Eowyn had ready access to a sword, no doubt she'd have Grima's head on the floor quicker than you can say 'nice try', but if she had no sword it could well be a different story. I'll agree that she is 'Bad @$$', I'm not taking that away from her, I just find it hard to believe that she could've bested Grima through brute strength. Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from Eowyn.

I found the 'almost giving in' scene in the film extremely distasteful and I think Tolkien would have hated it

Same here. Eowyn (as Tolkien intended her) would never have even almost given in to Grima no matter how much she 'thought he understood her', & would've seen through his petty masks. Mostly thanks to what she'd already seen him do to Theoden.

BookEowyn would, I feel fairly confident, have fallen on her own sword before being dishonoured in such a way. And may well, of course, have finished Grima off while she was at it.

No doubt about it!

[Encaitare]

I don't know what Tolkien would have thought of the "almost giving in" scene, but it's my favorite of TTT

You're probably right that he wouldn't have liked it just because there's so much sexual tension and all that (something the books are quite devoid of).

However, I think that if Eowyn's despair were to grow great enough, she would have given in. Maybe. Who knows? All I know is it's fun to write about in AU fanfiction!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I hope I never stumble upon those fanfics.

Congratulations to Estel for pointing out the difference between brute strength and circumstantial swordsmanship. It had to be done.

[Noxomanus]

Should he try to, he would have planned it while Eowyn would be caught by suprise. That would definately give him an edge. Also, I think his strength would be at least equal to her own.

But then I don't think he would have done it, afraid as he was of Eomer. Yes he did seem to have a sort of genuine love for her wich would mean he would never try to rape her......at least not for as long as she wasn't his 'prize'.

So, I think he wouldn't rape her,but should he try to..he'd have been able to do it.

[Encaitare]

Good point, Noxomanus.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Eomer ("I hope I never stumble upon those fanfics.") They're ever so fun.

[Encaitare]

Oh.... Eomer, did you think I meant it's fun to write AU fics in which he does rape her? Because that's not what I meant at all! (I was just thinking about this thread and that thought that you might have interpreted what I said the wrong way popped into my head.) I meant it's fun to write fics which analyze and try to interpret his complex feelings for her.

[Elianna]

I'm thinking Gríma was more of a stalker. From what I know of stalkers' mind sets (and I could be absolutely wrong on this), Gríma would have but Éowyn on hugely tall pedastal, seeing her as high and perfect because of this, his raping her would defile that perfection.

Could be, following that logic, that Gríma would try to kill Éowyn, or maybe Faramir, if he had lived to know that they had married. The kind of "If I can't have her, no one will" thing.

[Lalaith]

circumstantial swordsmanship

No doubt Grima could've killed the Witch-King if he fell right in front of him

What's all this about? Look chaps, Eowyn was a great warrior. Tolkien says so.

A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly.

[The Only Real Estel]

What's all this about? Look chaps, Eowyn was a great warrior. Tolkien says so.

A great warrior yes, no denying it. But to say that because Eowyn killed the Witch-King with a sword means that she could also fight off an attempt to rape her by Grima without a sword is stretching quite far.

[Imladris]

Grima wasn't a weakling. He killed Saruman and Lotho and who knew how many. It has also been found that the most skinny, weakish looking creatures are rather strong (Gollum, for example).

The quote that Lalaith quoted, how Eowyn had a swift stroke, skilled and deadly, refers to her swordsmanship. You can be clever with a blade yet not be able to fight with your fists. Now, I doubt that Eowyn would carry a sword with her at all times, being a woman and all. So, I do believe it possible that Grima could have overcome her if he wanted to rape her.

i know that eowyn's a strong women, mentally/physically... whatever, but that doesn't mean that she could beat Grima, a fairly pathetic example of his race.

in reality, the weakest man can almost always beat the strongest woman (unless they know where to aim ). I'm 5'7", and work outside a lot, with horses etc, so am stronger than average, but a guy quite a bit smaller than me would probably have little difficulty in overpowering me if he put his mind to it.

this has nothing to do with sexism / girl power / pride / strength of mind, whatever.... it's a simple fact of life... guys are stronger. full stop.

on the other hand, i don't know that grima really would rape eowyn. I'd say he was too much of a coward. He'd lose all influence within the kingdom of Rohan if he did, so he probably wouldn't risk.

also, eowyn was the only thing clean or pure within his life, and i don't believe he would let himself dirty something this pure.

[Quirkette]

My goodness, I'm certainly glad everyone's having so much fun casually discussing rape ina LOTR movie forum.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Quirkette, this is a Tolkien discussion forum and, whether it makes you comfortable or not, it is an issue which deserves to be discussed. I would not say that this is overly 'casual'.

Encaitare, you realised why I had to use the shocked smiley. I wasn't being altogether serious about that point, don't worry.

As has already been pointed out, just because Eowyn was skilled with a blade does not mean that she could overpower Grima if he attacked her. This is not evidence against the proposition Grima could rape Eowyn.

[The Saucepan Man]

My goodness, I'm certainly glad everyone's having so much fun casually discussing rape ina LOTR movie forum.

Given its subject matter, we have given some consideration as to this thread's suitability for this forum. Since it raises a valid issue in connection with Tolkien's works (and the films based on them) and the relationship between two of his characters, we have decided that it should continue. However, I would ask all posters to bear in mind that this is a sensitive issue and that it should therefore be approached with sensitivity and maturity.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

As has already been pointed out, just because Eowyn was skilled with a blade does not mean that she could overpower Grima if he attacked her. This is not evidence against the proposition Grima could rape Eowyn.

I don't know if anyone on this particular thread has ever held, let alone wielded, a sword. I would like to point out that they are- quite- heavy. Holding them takes strength, let alone swinging them around in circles one-handed. Grima, of course, would have been a swordsman at one point, but he had not fought in so long that his sword was rusty. And muscles start to atrophy within six weeks of disuse. Also, I've never ridden, but I assume it gives you strong leg muscles. Grima was said to be a bad horseman, so perhaps he hadn't ridden in a long time, either.
Although, as Imladris pointed out, Grima seems like the type to be horribly strong.

[Pippin Pondlily]

I have not come to a decision on whether I think Grima could rape Eowyn or not but I'd be willing to bet that Eowyn was probably usually armed with some sort of weapon (not a sword but perhaps a dagger of some sort?) and aware of what was around her--especially with Grima in her home.

Perhaps Eowyn has considered this possibility of rape? I'll bet that she was probably somewhat prepared to deal with some sort of attack from Grima. Because she was definitely not naive and if one of us, as a spectator, could come to wonder about Grima's thoughts/motives/etc., is it not possible that she may have as well?

Given this to ponder, if Eowyn had considered this possibility, she would have taken steps to prepare herself for such an attack? Maybe she had told Eomer of her suspicions? I don't know, the whole odds of Grima finding a princess, a shieldmaiden of Rohan alone and vulnerable, especially one like Eowyn, seems a bit unlikely... in the books it truthfully didn't say very much about Grima having great strength, and it definitely touched on Eowyn's a few times no matter what me might assume about either of them ... it does not seem likely that he could accomplish it if he was inclined to try.

I, personally, think rape was beneath Grima so I don't even think he would have attempted it.

- P. Pondlily

[Lhunardawen]

This thread made me realize more how much injustice the movies have made against the characters.

Yes, Grima is not weak. He could overpower Eowyn if he desired to. But I believe he was not in any way interested in getting Eowyn by himself, he was waiting for Rohan to finally fall into the hands of Saruman. Then he could get her, she being his prize of war and a reward for the evil he has sown into Edoras. For the meanwhile, with the battles still being fought, he would be contented "stalking" Eowyn, as Eomer said:

Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.

I agree with Evisse--there is no love in Grima's heart, only lust.

[Encaitare]

Whoa, the innocent little question I posed is still going! ::high-fives Grima-muse::

To Quirkette: It's not like there isn't rape in Tolkien's works. It's just skirted around very well. ie: Celebrian being waylaid by orcs... (well, uh, what do you think they did, huh? nasty monster guys come upon pretty elf babe in the woods? gee..), also Morgoth feeling lust for Tinuviel when she dances before him. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it says he felt that he wanted to do something terrible to her.... once more, I wonder what that could be?) Sorry for the sarcasm, I've been shut up in the basement too long

To Eomer of the Rohirrim: lol, I was pondering why anyone would have anything against Grima/Eowyn fics, i thought maybe you were a hardcore purist or something, and then I was suddenly like, "aw, crap! that's not what i meant!" so... yeah. And yes, I agree that he probably could rape her. But I don't think he would.

Wow once again... "questioning suitability?" Interesting... I am not an instigator by nature, just wanted to pose a question! Thanks to the Saucepan Man for allowing this thread to continue, though!

Veeeery eenteresting! I shall return later to see whats going on!

[Cibbwin]

Y'all make it sound like EOWYN is weak. Don't forget that she's described as being a steel blade. She's a tough cookie. No, I don't think Grima is weak, but he's not the most strong person, physically or mentally, either. He uses his words, as someone else pointed out, as his most potent weapon. I have no doubt that Eowyn would beat him to a pulp if he tried anything, and I have no doubt that Grima wouldn't do something like that. He might love her in a stalker-ish way, but he still loves and respects her. Him even attempting anything would disrespect her, and I don't think he wants that.

[Encaitare]

A good point you make, Cibbwin. Since he considers her to be so perfect, he wouldn't want to ruin that image of her, or cause her the pain, shame, and anguish that would come with raping her.

[Morsul the Dark]

Eowyn is his last thread of humanity
and he has a certain chivalry about him he respects and loves eowyn

He would not rape her he wishes to win her over but he can't but I doubt he would rape er because he rather wait a long time and be with her forever than to have her for a few brief moments and then lose her forever

[Encaitare]

Well said, Morsul.


Encaitare: *pats Grima's shoulder* See, not everyone thinks you're awful!
Grima: *is really not that comforted and would just like Encaitare to go away for awhile*

[The Only Real Estel]

No, Grima probably wouldn't rape Eowyn, there you're most likely right, Cibbwin.
But I disagree (again) with the idea that Eowyn would 'beat him to a pulp' if he ever tried it. And you can read just about any of my other posts & get quite a few reasons why I think it's silly that Eowyn could beat him in a no-swords-allowed-fight.

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't see that this theory, that Grima would necessarily be able to 'overpower' Eowyn, has a leg to stand on.

As to the rape discussion: I hardly think conjecture of this nature is true to the spirit of Tolkien, but there is no reason to believe that Grima (based on his disposition and nature as presented in the books) would be incapable of raping Eowyn, nor that he would be unwilling to commit such a heinous act.

[Valier]

I agree with Encaitare on the point about him really loving her,I think in his heart Wormtongue wanted Eowyn to love him on her own,probably because everyone else despised him and he hoped that someone would love him.
Knowing Eowyn has strong character he probably hoped she would see through his malicious behavior and love him for the man he used to be.

[Eluchíl]

If he did really love her, then that means he had a redeemable quality inspite of being a backstabber, a traitor and a snake. Which could have been proven when he killed himself. He may have been a lowlife, but he had some sense about him, and dare say even some complex emotions other than what Saruman led him with.