Determining the ages, Tolkien's great use of Mathematics and Historic Events. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

THE Ka · 05-31-2004, 03:42 PM

I found this today while i was reading over some material in the Encyclopedia of Arda... It caught my eye and made me wonder about how Tolkien deturmined the end of each age by the fall of a tyrant or great battle, and that if we were to recon and imagine the time from today and the forth age how would we deturnime the amount of years for each age.

Quote:

Although we have no records of the later Fourth, or any following Age, Tolkien makes a brief allusion to the future of Middle-earth in a letter written in 1958: "I imagine the gap [between the Fall of Barad-dûr and modern times] to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S[econd] A[ge] and T[hird] A[ge]. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."

( "Forth Age". The Encyclopedia of Arda.2004)

Hope you enjoy, i found it very interesting. Digging up a good mystery now and then and pondering it until you see its possiblities threw are many highlights of many peoples lives, including mine.

Do you have any comments on this? I would be glad to hear any member's wisdom or opinion. Blessed Be, THE Ka.

Joy · 05-31-2004, 03:56 PM

This is not anything from Tolkien, but here is my speculation based on how the previous ages ended.

4th Age - Birth of Christ - even in our modern world, this was important enough to change the Calendars from BC to AD (Began the 5th)

5th Age - 14th Century. Around the Rennesaince Period (Began the 6th)

6th Age - World War I (Began the 7th)

Voralphion · 05-31-2004, 05:37 PM

To have the birth of Christ as the end of the fourth age,would have for a very long age (~4000 years)while the other ages are less than two.
Her's a suggestion
End of fourth (beginning of fifth)- Noah's flood
End of fifth (beginning of sixth)- Birth of Christ
End of Sixth (beginning of seventh)- World War II, atom bombs dropped on Japan (beginning of nuclear age)

Joy · 05-31-2004, 06:25 PM

I was thinking about the Flood, but my thoughts on that was the Flooding of Beleriand at the end of the 2nd Age. The Earth was transformed then. Shortly after Noah's Flood it is writen that in the days of Peleg, the Earth was Divided (Gondwanaland was broken into contients). Could this be something similar to what happened at the end of the 2nd Age?

Son of Númenor · 05-31-2004, 07:17 PM

The Fourth Age seems like it wasn't long enough ago. I would have imagined that its end would have been marked roughly by the Ice Age, wherein some believe that ancient civilizations came to their ends (many speculate that the Sphinx was actually created circa 15,000 B.C., based partially on the fact that it shows significant signs of water erosion & it has not rained in that part of Egypt for several thousand years). If Tolkien wanted his mythology to hold any kind of 'weight', it seems that he would have said the Fourth Age came to an end in or around 15-10,000 B.C. In this case, the end of the the Fifth Age may have been the birth of Christ, & I like Voralphion's idea that the Sixth Age reached its end in World War II because of the atomic bomb (or in World War I, even, since it had a profound impact on the world as we know it & on Tolkien himself).

But then, who am I to question Tolkien on when an Age should or should not have started?

Voralphion · 06-01-2004, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Shortly after Noah's Flood it is writen that in the days of Peleg, the Earth was Divided (Gondwanaland was broken into contients). Could this be something similar to what happened at the end of the 2nd Age?

I don't think the flooding of Beleriand could be Noah's flood. Middle Eath wasn't drastically changed after that, (Beleriand was destroyed but that was it). More change happened in the drowning of Numenor, when the world was made round and new lands created.

In regards to Son of Numenor's reply regarding the supposed age of the sphinx, I too have thought of that, (there are also apparently other things that are believed to be of about 10000BC as well), but I don't think those ideas were around when Tolkien was alive so he can't have used them in his estimation of the time between the fourth age and our time.

Bombadil · 06-01-2004, 07:51 PM

Old Tom isn't the most learned in History, but I would say whatever century the middle ages were when the black plague killed off many many people. Perhaps this did not define an age, but another proposal would be to split up into ages of exploration and industry, and other defining periods that slowly changed our world.

THE Ka · 06-02-2004, 06:19 PM

Wow. last time i posted a thread the big B (Barrow Wright) closed it... I think all of your theories are wonderful! Especially about the sphinx! ( I am addicted to Ancient Egypt) It is very true about the water erosion on the bottom layers, mind you that there are also layers of vegitational erosion found on the sphinx as well. Which if you wanted to speculate abou this it would mean that the sphinx would have had been quiet old when the sahara was green (which was about 6,000 - 5,000 years ago!) But of course, many scientist brush this away as common misconseption... I encourage all to go look in the Enyclopedia of Arda and find stuff on the dating of the ages... there is plenty more information from were my quote came from. Thank you all. Blessed be! THE Ka

drigel · 06-04-2004, 02:18 PM

Its more than the 6000 years that JRRT alluded to, but i always imagined the 4th age ending before the last ice age (little ice age around 15-20K years ago..?). In my tragically derainged mind, this would explain the lack of evidence today of any of the civilizations of pre 5th age ME. Or at least the mid to northern sections. Getting scraped away by a preceding and receding 2 mile thick sheet of ice would do that, no?

THE Ka · 06-18-2004, 04:30 PM

Hmmm, maybe. If you go and read in the encyclopedia of arda under hobbits, they do make some reference of hobbits living in the more seculded areas of The Isle of Man. This is from lore of a small folk who have large feet and a love for wine... But, there is also the Picts ( Roman given name mean the "painted people") Who were called the "old people" or "small folk". they had dark almost tan skin and were not very tall. From what i've collected on the Picts, they sound like Harfoots. But, the Picts tended to live in the forest, like the Fallohides.

05-31-2004, 03:56 PM	#2
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	This is not anything from Tolkien, but here is my speculation based on how the previous ages ended. 4th Age - Birth of Christ - even in our modern world, this was important enough to change the Calendars from BC to AD (Began the 5th) 5th Age - 14th Century. Around the Rennesaince Period (Began the 6th) 6th Age - World War I (Began the 7th) __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-31-2004, 05:37 PM	#3
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	To have the birth of Christ as the end of the fourth age,would have for a very long age (~4000 years)while the other ages are less than two. Her's a suggestion End of fourth (beginning of fifth)- Noah's flood End of fifth (beginning of sixth)- Birth of Christ End of Sixth (beginning of seventh)- World War II, atom bombs dropped on Japan (beginning of nuclear age) __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

05-31-2004, 06:25 PM	#4
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	I was thinking about the Flood, but my thoughts on that was the Flooding of Beleriand at the end of the 2nd Age. The Earth was transformed then. Shortly after Noah's Flood it is writen that in the days of Peleg, the Earth was Divided (Gondwanaland was broken into contients). Could this be something similar to what happened at the end of the 2nd Age? __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-31-2004, 07:17 PM	#5
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	The Fourth Age seems like it wasn't long enough ago. I would have imagined that its end would have been marked roughly by the Ice Age, wherein some believe that ancient civilizations came to their ends (many speculate that the Sphinx was actually created circa 15,000 B.C., based partially on the fact that it shows significant signs of water erosion & it has not rained in that part of Egypt for several thousand years). If Tolkien wanted his mythology to hold any kind of 'weight', it seems that he would have said the Fourth Age came to an end in or around 15-10,000 B.C. In this case, the end of the the Fifth Age may have been the birth of Christ, & I like Voralphion's idea that the Sixth Age reached its end in World War II because of the atomic bomb (or in World War I, even, since it had a profound impact on the world as we know it & on Tolkien himself). But then, who am I to question Tolkien on when an Age should or should not have started? __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-01-2004, 07:51 PM	#7
Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Old Forest Posts: 488	Old Tom isn't the most learned in History, but I would say whatever century the middle ages were when the black plague killed off many many people. Perhaps this did not define an age, but another proposal would be to split up into ages of exploration and industry, and other defining periods that slowly changed our world. __________________ "'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

06-02-2004, 06:19 PM	#8
THE Ka Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: As with the flygja Posts: 1,403	Wow. last time i posted a thread the big B (Barrow Wright) closed it... I think all of your theories are wonderful! Especially about the sphinx! ( I am addicted to Ancient Egypt) It is very true about the water erosion on the bottom layers, mind you that there are also layers of vegitational erosion found on the sphinx as well. Which if you wanted to speculate abou this it would mean that the sphinx would have had been quiet old when the sahara was green (which was about 6,000 - 5,000 years ago!) But of course, many scientist brush this away as common misconseption... I encourage all to go look in the Enyclopedia of Arda and find stuff on the dating of the ages... there is plenty more information from were my quote came from. Thank you all. Blessed be! THE Ka __________________ Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg? Hevur tú reikað líka sum eg, í endaleysu tokuni?

06-04-2004, 02:18 PM	#9
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Its more than the 6000 years that JRRT alluded to, but i always imagined the 4th age ending before the last ice age (little ice age around 15-20K years ago..?). In my tragically derainged mind, this would explain the lack of evidence today of any of the civilizations of pre 5th age ME. Or at least the mid to northern sections. Getting scraped away by a preceding and receding 2 mile thick sheet of ice would do that, no?

06-18-2004, 04:30 PM	#10
THE Ka Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: As with the flygja Posts: 1,403	Hmmm, maybe. If you go and read in the encyclopedia of arda under hobbits, they do make some reference of hobbits living in the more seculded areas of The Isle of Man. This is from lore of a small folk who have large feet and a love for wine... But, there is also the Picts ( Roman given name mean the "painted people") Who were called the "old people" or "small folk". they had dark almost tan skin and were not very tall. From what i've collected on the Picts, they sound like Harfoots. But, the Picts tended to live in the forest, like the Fallohides. __________________ Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg? Hevur tú reikað líka sum eg, í endaleysu tokuni?