Bloodstained Elanor Planning/Discussion Thread

[piosenniel]

DISCUSSION THREAD FOR GAME BEGINS AT POST #135


This thread is being opened for the purposes of planning an RPG:

Bloodstained Elanor/ Elanor Agarwaen (working titles)

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Use of this Planning Thread is restricted to these writers for now:

• Durelin (RPG Proposer/Owner)
  
• Fordim Hedgethistle
  
• Roa_Aoife
  
• Arvedui III
  
• Amanaduial the Archer
  
• Aylwen Dreamsong

No other writers may use this thread with the exception of the Shire Moderators.

All posts by those other than those listed above will be deleted.

[piosenniel]

First time Shire Gamers:

• Fordim Hedgethistle
  
• Linnahiril Tinnufinwen
  
• Roa_Aoife

You can’t at this time be listed as ‘owners’ for this RPG. Once you have successfully completed a game in the Shire, then you can propose/own a Shire RPG.

Your names will be submitted at the completion of the game to the Rohan moderator, for consideration to become eligible to play in the RPG’s in Rohan.

Also, should you decide to propose/own a game in the Shire once this one is completed, then, at the completion of the game run by you, your name will be submitted to the Rohan moderator for consideration to also be able to propose and run games in Rohan.

[piosenniel]

Proposed Basic Storyline

The War of the Ring was battled on countless fronts across Middle-Earth, not only on the Field of Pelennor or the slopes of Mount Doom. One such front, small in comparison to other lands, and with its past greatness quickly fading into legend and myth, is the Elven realm of Lorien. The power of Nenya, one of the Three Rings, that dwells within can only protect it from so much darkness. Orcs have come from Dol Guldur twice before, drawing closer and closer to penetrating the inner patrolled borders of the forest.

The orcs have come again, and the patrols on the outer borders are slaughtered, and the orcs that remain, a small number in comparison to the beginning force, wait for reinforcements before they push on to the inner borders. As there has been no word from the outer patrols, a scout troop is sent to discover what has made the patrols so silent.

[piosenniel]

This is the form that will be submitted once your planning is finished. All sections will need to be completed before the proposal can be reviewed by the Shire Moderators - Piosenniel and Child of the 7th Age.

Once your proposal is accepted for play, then I will open a Discussion thread for the game and you can take on the other players you need.

When the Characters Needed list is all filled, then the RPG will be opened as the owner requests.
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At the end of your planning process - Please leave the completed form on the Planning Thread - don't send it to me by PM. It will be easier for me to work with it on the forum.

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SHIRE GAME PROPOSAL FORM

Title:

Historical Background (This is necessary only for Games set in a time before The Lord of the Rings. It can be 2 to 3 sentences that give some basic facts about what is going on in that time period. This will help clarify the setting for the prospective players.)
__________________________________

Basic Storyline:

__________________________________

The purpose of the story is to:

This means we will know the story is over when:
__________________________________

Starting Location:

Likely destination:
__________________________________

Timeframes:

This game takes place in the ____Age at around year _______.

The storyline itself or plot covers _____ days, weeks, months.

This game requires a time commitment of _____ from me, the game owner and from the major players.
__________________________________

Characters needed: – be specific as to type (eg., Lothlorien Elves, not just Elves, if that’s what you need; or any other characters types from specific regions) and please indicate the number of each type you will need.

Please note for each character type needed: Race – number needed – and gender needed

Character types which would not belong:

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Are there any writers you have invited to play on the game and are saving spots for them? If so, please list their names under Dedicated Characters for me.

They will need to submit their Character Descriptions Forms and First Posts to me before I will open the Discussion Thread:

Dedicated Characters:

Fordim Hedgethistle

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Roa_Aoife

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

GaladrieloftheOlden

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Arvedui III

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Amanaduial the Archer

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Aylwen Dreamsong

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

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The game owner(Durelin + ?) will play ____ character(s).

OWNER CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST FOR THE GAME TO BE PLACED HERE

__________________________________

USE THIS CHARACTER DESCRIPTION FORM TO PRESENT YOUR CHARACTER:

NAME:

AGE:

RACE:

GENDER:

WEAPONS (No magical, super-hero, mithril weapons. Just good solid Middle-earth weapons and armor only that is appropriate to the race of the character and the time period.):

APPEARANCE:

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: (No half-Elven characters. No mixed-type characters. No super-heroes. No assassins. No one all powerful, martial arts proficient, or having any magical traits. Just regular characters with normal abilities for their races only):

HISTORY:

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Other information of special interest that you would like to include:

Do you want first posts for the game when the players submit their characters on the discussion thread? - YES/NO

Please note that this will mean NO character descriptions will be accepted without First Posts accompanying them. All character descriptions posted without the required First Post will be sent back to their writers.

[piosenniel]

Have fun planning!

~*~ Pio

[Durelin]

Howdy all!

Here's some starting points, as well as a possible direction in which we could go.

Background Info:

TA 3019, February - March

Lorien attacked three times from Dol Guldur

"...but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."

The borders undergo much, but the orcs are driven back. With destruction of Sauron, Celeborn leads forces over the Anduin and destroys Dol Guldur: Galadriel throws down its walls.

Mirkwood is invaded, in the end they overcome the orcs. On the day of the new year Celeborn and Thranduil meet in Mirkwood. Mirkwood is renamed Eryn Lasgalen, 'The Forest of Greenleaves'. Thranduial keeps northern Mirkwood. Celeborn takes southern Mirkwood and names it East Lorien.

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Fordim - You said that the armies did unite, though I cannot find that said anywhere. Where, from what did you learn this?

If we united the armies of Mirkwood and Lorien, it would open up many possibilities, and we could then have several ‘stories’ running at the same time. The story of Elves in Mirkwood and Lothlorien, male and female, warriors (from the inner border, the scout troop, an envoy to Thranduil, the united Elven army, etc.) and ‘counselors‘ (perhaps). With this wide range of perspectives you gain a much fuller effect, of not just the story, but the events of Middle-Earth around them.

What we would not receive from this is any true interaction between orcs an elves besides meeting them in battle, which would be something most interesting.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hello All.

You’ll have seen that this is all new to me so I hope that I do this right. At any event, I have had some ideas about the game, and without further ado, here they are:

Given that the setting is going to be the lands between Lorien and Dol Guldur, I think this gives us a great chance to explore some elements of Prof. Tolkien’s mythos that were left rather unfinished. The particular thread I’m thinking about are the seven Dwarven rings (to match the three Elven and the Nine for Men). One of the few things that is revealed about Dol Guldur in Tolkien’s works is that Thorin Oakenshield’s father Thrain was held prisoner there when it was still the fortress of choice for Sauron (before the White Council attacked him there and he retreated to Mordor). Sauron took from Thrain the map that led Bilbo and the Dwarves to the secret door in the mountain, as well as the key. But in the Unfinished Tales (or somewhere in the appendices to LotR) it also says that Sauron also took from Thrain the last of the Dwarven rings of power that had not already been taken by Sauron or consumed by dragon fire.

This has always intrigued me. If Sauron had some – although apparently not all – of the Dwarven Rings why would he not have attempted to use them in the War of the Ring? Presumably, the ambassador to Erebor (in LotR) who promises “Rings of Power” in return for news of Bilbo and the Shire was talking of these, but that’s the only mention they get. I propose that we work these Rings into our story…and unsurprisingly I have a suggestion how:

The scouting party is sent out to find the lost border patrols, but there is no sign of them – only telltale signs that they have marched away from Lorien and toward the Anduin. Our scouting party follows. We find the patrol all encamped on the bank of the River; they are all acting very strangely – talking about their imminent attack on Dol Guldur as a first move, and then about the attack that they will launch on Morder. We find that they are led by four extremely powerful Elves, totally unknown to anyone. Somehow, we figure out that these guys are actually allies of Sauron – they are the final remnant of those Firstborn (so WAAAAY back from the First Age) who sided with Sauron. They have been given the four Dwarven Rings recoverd by Sauron, which gives them the ability to confuse the minds of their brethren. This has been the Big Plan for Dol Guldur all along! These four evil Elves are leading this small army into an ambush. The ambush happens (so, Epic Battle Number One), and the deluded Lorien Elves are all but slaughtered. Just before the battle, we manage to convince a few of the deluded Lorien Elves of their folly and send them back to Lorien to warn them. Our scouting party, stays behind to save as many of our kind as we can in the battle. We manage to save only a few and escape the slaughter with them. We pursue the orc army and the evil Elves to the verge of Lorien where they attack on 22 March. (This date is from the appendices to LotR – I know, I’m a total Appendices Geek: I also have the Atlas to Middle-Earth, and refer to the Unfinished Tales relentlessly – so if you find this sort of thing annoying, please let me know now!)

This is where I think things get cool. While the ‘big battle’ is going on the edge of Lorien, our scouting party, which is behind the orc army see that things are going poorly for our kin, because they cannot resist the unseen power and will of the evil Elves. So we decide, with little hope for success, to attack the evil Elves – who are keeping to the rear of their army.

Now, somehow or other, we defeat them, leaving the Rings ownerless. As they cannot simply be destroyed and we do not want to leave them there, four of our party take them – one each. The destruction of the One does not take place for three days (on 25 March) so we could have some real fun as the four with the Rings slowly succumb to them, while the rest of the party tries to decide what to do with them. Things could even get really ugly amongst the party (they are about to start fighting with one another??) when, on the 25th, the One is destroyed and the Rings in our possession lose all power.

Again, according to the appendices, the combined forces of Lorien and of Thranduil in the Mirkwood attacked and destroyed Dol Guldur on 30 March – I would say that our story end there, with our scouting company participating in that.

I hope that this isn’t too much (or too little, or whatever) for a first suggestion. Like I say – I’m new to this!

Fordim

[Durelin]

Wow. That is some creative thinking!

First of all, since it is so creative, there are a lot of holes to fill in. Second of all, there are a lot of explanations to be made. And there is a lot of improvising to be done.

Now, the idea of the Dwarven Rings being given to followers just as the Rings of Men were, pulling followers of Sauron even farther under his power, is intriguing, I must say. And the idea that evil elves would be sent to lead a complicated attack on Lorien is interesting, plus it makes sense.

But then we come to a problem: the magic involved with the Rings of power, and the idea of immortals bearing them.

Magic is complicated, as it can be stretched too far, and it is hard to set limits. The magic of the Istari is impossible enough to determine all the extents and limitations of, but the power of the Rings of Power. I mean, they're called 'The Rings of Power'. That name radiates power!

That was what they were made as, the Dwarven Rings of Power, but now that they have been in the hands of Sauron for several millennia, what powers to they have now? And with the One Ring holding power over them? Are they corrupted, just as the One Ring is? Are their powers now limited to evil, or...?

There are so many questions to answer, and not just concerning the rings. (For instance, who are these evil elves? I must ask that one, at least!) Now, we could answer all these on our own. But that will be an immense chore that will easily stray far from Tolkien. I'm not sure if I'm up to it, to tell the truth!

Now, somehow or other, we defeat them, leaving the Rings ownerless.

This shows that you must be aware of the holes to fill. Somehow...the ringbearers must be defeated. That might mean bringing in Galadriel, who might face these rings. I doubt that would work, though. I doubt that four Rings of Power + an orc army from Dol Guldur could be defeated, even with united armies of Mirkwood and Lorien, and the possible power found in Nenya.

There are some aspects of that idea I truly do like, though. The ending, though, is not one of them, I'm afraid. What a depressing way to end, with more people scarred for life then just poor Frodo and Sam!

Think about it! But I'm not forgetting the idea, believe me!

-Durelin

[Arvedui III]

Wow, lots of good ideas all around. This game's gonna rock. I really like the Rings of Power idea and the multiple story lines from both Mirkwood and Lorien. So maybe combining little bits of them would fill in some of the plot-holes. (Although, knowing me I'll probably add three for every one I try to fill in . )

We could follow two scouting parties, one from Lothlorien, which is trying to find a lost patrol after the second assault on Lorien, and one from Mirkwood, which has been splintered, some of the elves being lured to Dol Guldur by some mysterious force (insert dwarven rings of power here) the other half, which was not effected, following them. Our Lorien scouting party discovers the third wave of orcs, and then has to frantically return to golden wood to warn the other elves. The party is then sent to Thranduil for aid, and runs into the Mirkwood patrol, which is battling both the fallen elves who were seduced by the rings, with more of the patrol becoming lured every day, and all manner of black creatures from Dol Guldur. The combined party has to hold out long enough for Celeborn and Thranduil to meet up and destroy Dol Guldur.

And about the magic is complicated thing- Tolkien never gives us a real discription of the how's or why's or to what extent's of any of the rings of power. So this means we can improvise and give whatever (reasonable) powers to the fallen dwarven rings we want. Maybe they're held by fallen elves who corrupt others. Maybe they're born by orcs. Maybe they're just sitting in Dol Guldur putting out a siren call. I dunno. But we can fill in whatever we need to make the plot work.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

An emendation, a retraction, some responses:

The emendation first -- it was not Sauron, of course, who took the map and key from Thrain, it was Gandalf ("Bad Fordim; no donut!").

The retraction -- the points regarding fighting and defeating the Ring Bearers and having our characters taking them for themselves: OK, not such a good idea.

The responses -- I like the idea of two storylines (Mirkwood and Lorien), but that might end up being too cumbersome, mightn't it? If there are to be two, they should be combined very quickly.

As to the 'powers' of the Dwarf Rings: in UT it says that Sauron made them at the same time as he made the Nine, and there doesn't seem to be any distinction between them and the ones he gave to Men, at least insofar as his purpose for them. I've always just assumed that they had the same effect on the bearer. When Sauron took Thrain's Ring it drove him insane, which would seem to be in keeping with what we know of the 'possessive' power of the Nine. I don't think we could have them in the hands of orcs (Sauron would never trust them to orcs!), nor with any evil Men in his service (who would presumably end up as more Nazgul). That's why I thought Elves would be a good idea: they would be able to weild the Rings and serve Sauron without 'fading' like Men do, so it wouldn't be another group of Nazgul, but something entirely different and new.

Fordim

[piosenniel]

I want to share this passage from Morgoth’s Ring; The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II); “Laws and Customs among the Eldar”; ‘Of Re-birth and other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos’:

This concerns the fëar (spirits) of those of the Elves who, when their body dies, refuse the call of Mandos to the Halls of Waiting. It gives some precedent for Evil to have overtaken some of the Elves.

If you do plan to use Evil Elves, I would like to see them based along these lines – not Elves who chose to do evil but who made the unfortunate choice to refuse the summons to the Halls of Mandos at their bodies’ death and whose Houseless fëar were then called in by whatever incarnation of Shadow there was at the time. I would also like their number to be limited – though you could perhaps have some of them who have come from the Necromancer at Dol Guldur, or they may have been Houseless spirits who overcame the Elven guard that’s gone missing at the border – taking their bodies as needed and killing the others with the aid of the orcs.

The fëa is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from authority and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather the invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the elder say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him. For the fëa unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness {its fëa already having answered the summons of Morgoth - my edit} and passed into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter summons of Morgoth.

{There is then a passage on how in these after-days (4th Age and beyond) more and more of the Elves refuse the summons and wander houseless in the world – causing mischief to mankind}.

. . . For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grief, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone.

. . . Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgment of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies of lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for the mastery of the body may be gravely injured, even if it is not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them . . .

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Now, about the Dwarven Rings of Power:

I’m not sure how you are planning to use them – and how many you are planning to have in the possession of the Evil Elves. One would be preferable as a maximum in my opinion.

They were all under the dominion of the One Ring of Sauron. So Sauron will be aware of their use, even if he does not at the moment have the Ring of Power on his hand. And any who wears one, he can bend to his will and in the end utterly enslave them.

. . . But even if he (Sauron) did not wear it (the One Ring), that power existed and was in ‘rapport’ with himself: he was not ‘diminished’. -- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien; 'Letter #131'

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Tolkien does discuss the powers of the lesser rings in Letter #131, also.

I do want any appearance of unusual or greatly overpowering magical abilities conferred on the wearers of the lesser rings of power. Tolkien states in the same letter as above that the chief power of all the rings alike was:

. . . the prevention of or slowing of ‘decay’ (i.e. ‘change’ viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But they also enhanced the natural powers of the possessor, - thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corrupted into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’ . . .): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

This last power was shown when Frodo slips on the One Ring. So I’m assuming if a lesser ring of power were worn by an Elf, evil or not – he/she would become invisible and see the invisible, shadow world of Sauron.

The 3 Elven rings of power, it is stated in this same letter, did not confer invisibility. And they remained unsullied by Sauron.

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So, a couple of questions here, to consider as you plan the game:

1.) How will you introduce the idea of these evil Elves into the game? Their origin, and how they now fit into your storyline, I think, will need to be documented in the History section that precedes the Storyline section of the Proposal.

2.) How many will you introduce into the game? Will they be carry-along characters or will some one actually play one.

If there are to be evil Elf characters played – then I want them to be done by the game’s planners, so that the other moderator and I can see those character bios and histories prior to putting the Game up as a Discussion Thread. We will require that these characters be very carefully done, and do not stray beyond the bounds that Tolkien crafted for his Elves.

3.) How many Dwarven rings of power will your evil Elves have?

4.) What specific powers do you see being conferred on the wearers? How are their natural Elven powers enhanced.

5.) Since none of this finding of a lesser ring of power or evil Elves is mentioned in the LotR or its Appendices, how are you going to wrap this game up so that such an incident passes out of memory and is not recorded?

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While I have you – I have another request concerning Elven characters. Hair color is preferably dark (black or dark brown) or yellow. Eyes are grey as Tolkien specified (though we will accept variations of grey-blues). No red-haired, green or violet eyed elves from Lothlorien or Mirkwood.

Also, Tolkien’s female Elves do not usually go into battle – so most of your characters will need to be male if they are involved in the battles.

Just some things to consider.

Thanks!

~*~ Pio, Game Moderator

[Linnahiril Tinnufinwen]

Just a question. If the evil Elves were orginally Elves whose spirits were enslaved by the Dark Lord because they refused the call of Mandos, how are we to be certain, when they do again take a physical from, that they will be in the form of Elves at all? Wouldn't they be more wrath-like being, like the Nazgul? They may not be able to help being in that form, unless Sauron, when he enslaved them, still had the ability to create "fair" forms of evil to decieve the Elves, and other races of Middle Earth. Such as he did when he "tricked" the Elves into making the Nine Rings. If this is the case, these "evil Elves" were taken in by Sauron somtime during the beginning of the Second Age.

[piosenniel]

Good Question -

They don't make bodies for themselves.

They can inhabit the bodies of others (And I am assuming Tolkien meant other Elf bodies, though this is not specified) in one of two ways, according to Tolkien:

They either try to drive out the other fëa and take over the body, or they plead for shelter from the other person and if it's granted, they overwhelm the other fëa and enslave both it and the body that houses the fëa.

I am supposing here that they would have the 'look fair, feel foul' air about them to other Elves.

Some of the Elves who refuse the call of Mandos at their body's death do remain in spirit (fëa) form.

[Linnahiril Tinnufinwen]

I have a suggestion for the story, be it but a slight one. What if a few of our scout members get captured and taken to Dol Guldur, and a few of us have to save them. I'm not sure whether this would be an impossible feat or not, to actually penetrate into Dol Guldur.

One may ask why orcs would capture rather than immediately kill an elf. Perhaps they have orders from the "evil Elves." This can take place towards the end, before Celeborn has marched out of Lorien, and the Elf-wraths, feeling a little insecure about victory, would capture the scout "leaders," in the hope that this will buy them a bit of time to "negotiate" a surrender, or at least give them more time, so that they may wait for reinforcements. Of course, we save them before anything like this can take place. I'm not sure whether this would be a silly idea or not, but its just a suggestion, and it might add a bit of variety into the story.

[Durelin]

I believe we need to get away from evil elves as well as rings of power. Neither are at all spoken of in appendices, and little is known about the Rings of Power. It can be questioned if there were any dark elves in Tolkien's world. Are elves actually corruptable?

These are interesting ideas, but I don't believe they are proper for an RPG, especially one in the Shire.

About the possibility of capture:

This would become a more gruesome story, though it would allow the orcs and elves to deal with each other closely. This will not be a pretty sight, though, to focus on hatred from both sides. We could have a minor character captured, with the mission to rescue him, but then I'm afraid we enter into entirely another story in the proposed setting alone, one completely separate from the war, and also a rather generic one.

Also, Tolkien’s female Elves do not usually go into battle – so most of your characters will need to be male if they are involved in the battles.

That is why I believe a more basic approach to the war is needed, so battle is focused on less, and a true story is created. The possibility of an envoy, and some focus on other than soldiers in battle gives more flexibility, and makes it more interesting and funn to play.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Lots going on -- and lots going through my mind. . .hmmmmmm

OK -- I'm willing to concede that the combination of Evil Elves and Rings of Power is perhaps too much here; I cannot agree with Durelin enough on the point that we should strive as much as possible to move away from battle and toward more character development.

That having been said, and in an effort to simplify, how about doing away with the Dwarven Rings (one day, when I can be an owner of my own thread, look for their return ), but I think that there is lots of interesting stuff to be done with the 'possessed Elves' suggested by Pio.

For a new scenario suggestion: the 'scouting party' is transformed into an envoy from Lorien to Mirkwood. This party is composed of men and women (cause I really want to play a young she-Elf, not sure why. . .). They have been sent by Galadriel to ask Thranduil for help in repulsing the orc armies. They find the patrols have been slaughtered, but some Elves have apparently survived and fled toward Dol Guldur. They follow and find that the 'survivors' have been taken over by the houseless. . . and we evolve the story from there. . .

[Roa_Aoife]

This may be beside the point now, but I seem to remember reading in the Silmarillion that the dwarven rings were mainly ussed to increase treasure. But anyway, I like the ideas of possessed Elves, and an envoy of Emmissaries. But why not do some more combinations, and have the Envoy find the Orc patrol, or vice versa. The scouting party from Mirkwood could be traveling near by, and come aid in battle. Both parties take casualties and then are somewhat stranded in the area between Mirkwood and Lothlorien. They have to survive through the darker areas of the forest, becuase the "safe passages are blocked off. What do you think?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Ooooooooooo -- I love Roa's idea.

So if I'm getting this right, Roa, the envoy from Lorien finds the dead patrols, tracks the 'survivors' to Mirkwood, are attacked by orcs, and are rescued by a scouting party of Mirkwood Elves? Where do the possessed Elves come in?

I just thought -- how about we do away with the orcs and fighting them at all for the time being (save that for later in the story) and just Elves -- THREE groups of Elves -- all meeting up in the middle of Mirkwood. We could have the Envoy from Lorien, the Scouting Party from Mirkwood AND those Elves from Lorien who have been taken over by the Houseless. The possessed Elves capture the Envoy and take them toward Dol Guldur. On the way they meet the scouting party from Mirkwood. The big "struggle" for the first part of the story, then, is 'saving' the 'possessed' Elves (and here it could be rich with plotline -- many of those taken by the Houseless are friends of or known to the Elves in the Envoy?).

The whole party is then attacked by dark nasties from Dol Guldur and they have to hold on until Celeborn and Thranduil get there to save them.

At any rate, much as I like the idea of exploring the Houseless, I am still open to removing them from the story entirely as Durelin is suggesting. I think that there is good textual basis to have them in the story, though -- when Sauron was in Dol Guldur he was called the Necromancer: wouldn't it make sense that he was doing something 'necromantic' by preparing the Houseless to enslave the Elves of Lorien? If we do use them, we should avoid having them as fighting-enemies, and use them instead for personal/character conflict. If we go with my three-group approach, would it be too unweildy to have THREE story lines with gamers playing the Mirkwood scouting party, the Lorien Envoys and the possessed Elves? The advantage to having us play the possessed Elves is that they could interact with orcs and other servants of Sauron -- which as Durelin pointed out would be fun! There would also be ample opportunity to do interesting stuff when the Houseless come to the Elves and ask for 'admittance' and then overmaster their will.

Fordim

[Roa_Aoife]

I like where Fordhim is going. It gives everything a more rounded feel. The idea of the houseless is kind of sketchy, but we could make it work. Plus there's lot's of chance for charachter development. There should be more in between though. For an example, though we could keep it if you like, we could start with the parties being comissioned. We could also hold off the capture for a little bit.

The Lorien Elves could find the possessed Elves, and bring them into their party. Then a series of murders and/or attacks could take place. Also, the possessed elves could work as spies in the group. Of course this would only work for so long until the lorien elves figured it out. Then they would have to be captured for further questioning. This whole time, the mirkwood elves could be finding all sorts of strange signs, as though the enemy was makiong bizarre movements.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Here are a few of the original things bandied about in the PMs between myself and Durelin (I don’t have some of the things, as they are on PMs I sent to her, and I therefore don’t have direct quotes etc):

The original story plan along with a little extra from a further PM:

The War of the Ring was battled on countless fronts across Middle-Earth, not only on the Field of Pelennor or the slopes of Mount Doom. One such front, small in comparison to other lands, and with its past greatness quickly fading into legend and myth, is the Elven realm of Lorien. The power of Nenya, one of the Three Rings, that dwells within can only protect it from so much darkness. Orcs come from the Misty Mountains in almost constant waves, drawing closer and closer to penetrating the inner patrolled borders of the forest.

The patrols on the outer borders are slaughtered, and the orcs that remain, a small number in comparison to the beginning force, wait for reinforcements before they push on to the inner borders. As there has been no word from the outer patrols, a scout troop is sent to discover what has made the patrols so silent.

To let you know a little bit about where I'm considering going with this...Well, I was told of an alliance made between the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, marching against the orcs supposedly on March 30 during the War of the Ring, and this opens up many possibilities which I had not considered before.

I had considered…the scout troop finding the orc army already on the move. For some reason (a. it's too late, b. they can't find a way to get past the army), they cannot go back to warn the inner defences of the forest. And from there....they could call on the aid of Thranduil. There are so many options. We could even…go earlier in the defences, before Frodo even leaves the Shire, for instance.

I do like this idea, and what you have made of it, but I am not entirely sure about using the ‘Houseless’ to possess the elves; it seems a little too X-files rather than Middle Earth. However, as it seems to be a popular idea, and if we could make it work, it could probably prove to be quite interesting.

Just a question: would the Houseless be travelling alone? How would they appear to other elves when they did not have bodies?

It leads onto issue though: character types. We could, of course, keep purely with elves, and this way we already have several different viewpoints. However, what about the bad characters? (I’m getting around to how it joins on, don’t worry ) If we wished to expand, we could have orcs played – or humans. The easterlings were known to join the orcs, and to have some of these Haradrim played would increase the diversity of the game, meaning there were the good elven viewpoints, the viewpoints of the ‘evil’, or enslaved, elves possessed by the Houseless, and, instead of the straightforwardly and almost automatically twisted, brutal and almost beast-like natures of the orcs, you could also have the viewpoint of the humans, on the side of the orcs but not necessarily ‘evil’ so to speak. What do you think?

Now, the link I mentioned:

They can inhabit the bodies of others (And I am assuming Tolkien meant other Elf bodies, though this is not specified) in one of two ways, according to Tolkien:

They either try to drive out the other fëa and take over the body, or they plead for shelter from the other person and if it's granted, they overwhelm the other fëa and enslave both it and the body that houses the fëa.

I am supposing here that they would have the 'look fair, feel foul' air about them to other Elves.

Do you think it would be possible that the Houseless, if they weren’t able to find a suitable ‘host’ elf, for whatever reason, would take over the bodies of the Haradrim? This could also enable some rather interesting twists: these elves would have hundreds of years experience, and would probably even be enable to manipulate the orcs and other easterlings; the chances are that the orcs, and even the humans, would not be able to notice so easily the difference, to identify the ‘look fair, feel foul’ air that the elves would have when they encountered elves taken by the Houseless. Only those very close to the taken easterling/easterlings would know something was different with him/her/them – for example, a brother.

Now, to address a few points you made here, Roa:

[quote] For an example, though we could keep it if you like, we could start with the parties being comissioned.[/quote

There are numerous games already starting in this exact same way – for example, Search for the Lost Messenger, Kidnapped!, Roll Out the Barrels, to name just a few that actually start with elves (the first two actually start in Lorien). I think therefore we might just skip to when they are setting off from Lorien to Mirkwood – there can be references in private thought or in conversation maybe to their sending off, if players wish, and certainly references to the reason: there would be a leader of two of the group, and they would probably feel inclined to make some suitably dramatic and rousing speech in which, hopefully, he(/she - if they were going to Mirkwood to ask for Thranduil's help, rather than purely as a warrior force, I don't see that there is any reason why there could not also be female elves as well) would outline the brief idea of their purpose (just for those who were flicking elastic bands and flirting with the person next to them in the meeting Ok, ok...). But I don't really see that there is a particular need to go through the whole largely pointless and a little samey stage of 'commision', especially as they would be commisioned by NPCs in this case, Galadriel and Celeborn.

The Lorien Elves could find the possessed Elves, and bring them into their party. Then a series of murders and/or attacks could take place. Also, the possessed elves could work as spies in the group. Of course this would only work for so long until the lorien elves figured it out.

This does not fit really with the idea that the Houseless elves would someone have a different, and maybe slightly evil, air about them to other elves. Would we be keeping with this idea, or shall we drop it? I like that concept, it would make the Houseless somehow different, but certainly, as Roa has said, to have them really seeming the same as others could lead to some interesting twists and consequences, such as the spying and attacks Roa mentioned.

What do you think of these ideas? Please bear with my horrifically long sentences and try to make some sense of them

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

There are so many good ideas and thoughts that I will never be able to stay on top of it all -- oh well, beats working. . .

I think that the impulse to 'keep it simple' expressed by Durelin is a good one -- for that reason I would think it best to keep things 'strictly' Elves and avoid all Easterlings etc. Also, the armies that attack Lorien from Dol Guldur are specifically said by Tolkien to be composed of orcs, and I see no reason to change that. (And didn't Pio say in her informative email that the Houseless would not 'take over' anyone but other Elves. . .? Note to self: check that.)

I'm not so sure about the idea of the 'possessed Elves' joining up with and murdering the Lorien Elves -- any Elf so unfortunate as to be seduced by one of the Houseless would be immediatly identifiable to a 'normal' Elf.

So at any rate, in the interests of keeping things simple -- why not severly restrict the number of Elves who get taken over by the Houseless: say, three? (That would appeal to Prof Tolkien I think: Three Houseless to oppose the thee Elven Rings). The Lorien envoys could follow these Three into Mirkwood where they meet up with the Mirkwood Elves, and then they have a great stand-off/showdown with the Houseless in which there's no fighting, but a very Elvish kind of give and take as the unaffected try to drive the Houseless out of their friends and kin -- with song and story, enchantments (but not magic!), memories of home etc etc. When the Houseless are driven out, the three freed Elves find that they have some of the memories of the departed spirits and they reveal a 'secret' army of orcs being sent against Lorien, so the Lorien Envoys and Mirkwood Scouts head like H*** for Lorien to warn them. . .

This way we could still have three groups of gamers: Mirkwood Scouts, Lorien Envoys and Houseless-taken Elves (who could maybe interact with orcs, etc).

I think it's a good idea to begin in media res with the three groups already 'on the move'

Having fun thinking about all this. . .

Fordim

[Amanaduial the archer]

I would prefer to have easterlings as well as orcs - partly because, if the Houseless elves are going to communicate with the 'bad guys', I suspect they wouldn't, even at the stage of real evil, be too keen on using the orcs. They are despicable to all elves. And yes, Durelin said keep it simple, but frankly, we have possessed elves and the fear of elves included here - a few easterlings - not many, mind, doesn't have to be many - and bear in mind these aren't the parties that attacked Lorien and therefore easterlings aren't automatically excluded by that reference of them being completely composed of orcs - a few easterlings into the bargain won't, on this scale of things, really complicate things very much. It just gives a wider viewpoint.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Oooh, I show up just a tad late and so much has happened! This is all so very interesting to read, great job everyone...impressive...

I think that the impulse to 'keep it simple' expressed by Durelin is a good one -- for that reason I would think it best to keep things 'strictly' Elves and avoid all Easterlings etc.

If we wished to expand, we could have orcs played – or humans. The easterlings were known to join the orcs, and to have some of these Haradrim played would increase the diversity of the game.

I actually really like the idea of having easterlings as well. It seems more diverse, as Aman mentioned and it also allows potential players to have a medium between elves and orcs. It would be more appealing for them to be able to choose and have a variety with which to create their character.

Fordim! Your idea is excellent! I love the confrontation idea, in general. Keeping the Houseless not only out of their friends, but also out of themselves...also your idea of the memories giving off a warning seems a very good way to get the orcs back into the picture. However, this would shift the focus almost entirely on the Elves, meaning that the whole game until the end with the battle would leave the orcs with nothing to do. Unless we wanted them to just post about their movements, or have some internal argument over something, the orcs wouldn't have anything to do. This could be where the easterlings could come in handy, perhaps? Fights, etc? In any case, even if the orcs were minor characters we'd have to bring them in late in the game if it was all about getting the Houseless out of the Elves.

*takes a breath* Whoo, we really are getting along quickly here, eh? This already sounds really promising!

-Aylwen

Edited because I was a meanie.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

OK OK OK -- so orcs and Easterlings, eh. . .

Aylwen's point about the orcs and Easterlings having nothing to do is actually easy to solve with the Houseless around: at the beginning of the game we can have three groups all joined mid-march:

1) the Lorien envoy on the way to Mirkwood, finding the slaughtered border patrol, following the trail of the orcs who slaughtered them toward Mirkwood

2) the Mirkwood Scouts heading south toward Dol Guldur to check out rumours of a new and dangerous threat

3) a party of ORCS and EASTERLINGS with three Lorien Elves who have been captured by the Houseless, high-tailing it back to Dol Guldur for re-enforcements. The Easterlings are taking orders from the Houseless, and the orcs hate this whole thing and are getting very orcish about it all.

Things evolve from there as Roa first suggested (Lorien Elves catch up with Houseless et. al. Big Battle; going badly for Lorien Elves; Mirkwood Elves to the rescue -- ta ta ta daaaaa), then things go as I suggested (with the Lorien and Mirkwood Elves rescuing the 'possessed' Elves); meanwhile the orcs and Easterlings chuckly evilly as they fall back to Dol Guldur and join the army going for Lorien; the Elves rush back to raise the warning having found out about the plans from the 'revived' Elves now new Houseless-less.

So lots of roles and stuff for a wide variety of characters and types!! Lorien Elves, Mirkwood Elves, 'Houseless' Elves, orcs and Easterlings.

Am I properly summing up where this has been going? Or have I got it totally backward? Or are there a dozen equally good or better plots out there nobody's brought forward?

Hmmmmm. . . this is beginning to sound good. . .

Fordim

[Amanaduial the archer]

Things evolve from there as Roa first suggested (Lorien Elves catch up with Houseless et. al. Big Battle; going badly for Lorien Elves; Mirkwood Elves to the rescue -- ta ta ta daaaaa), then things go as I suggested (with the Lorien and Mirkwood Elves rescuing the 'possessed' Elves); meanwhile the orcs and Easterlings chuckly evilly as they fall back to Dol Guldur and join the army going for Lorien

A thought: you said the orcs 'hate this whole thing and are generally getting very orcish about it' - well, I don't think there is much honour among orcs, and resentment between the easterlings, the houseless and the orcs would probably be pretty rife - I wouldn't doubt that the orcs would, at some signal from their leader, abandon the rest sharpish and head for Dol Guldur to join the party heading at a grand old speed for Lorien, leaving them in lurch possibly just after the Mirkwood elves arrive - ie. a much smaller baddie force against the suddenly much larger elven force. The easterlings and remaining orcs, plus the houseless who would soon be captured, would continue to put up a fight, of course, but have a feeling at times like these it becomes somewhat every man/possessed elf/orcish beastie for himself, and they would probably flee - say this was taking place in Mirkwood, where the spiders are at large (?) - when the easterlings flee, I doubt the elves would follow, assuming the spiders would get them. The spiders don't necessarily need to, of course. The capture of the Houseless follows - but what if one Houseless got away, hmm? Maybe it abandoned its body and fled in spirit form, ready to cause further mischief and be back for revenge later...

[Roa_Aoife]

I like where this is all going. Let me see if this is how we have it so far (correct me if I'm horribly off!) We begin mid-march with Scouting Party, Envoy from Lorien, and the badies. There is a skirmish when the envoy runs into the Badies, then they're rescued by the mirkwood elves. Conflict arises between the orcs and veryone else on the bad side, and they high tail off to Dol Goldur. Then, the good elves free the possessed Elves (with a possible escapee.)

The formerly possessed Elves have memories of a large force moving toward Lorien. From there? How 'bout the envoy continues to see King Thranduil, and asks for his help. The scouting party hightales it south to warn Celeborn about the coming danger. Of course we could have the parties break up and form new groups. I don't know what the orcs would be doing this whole time- except marching, alot. Do I have it right?

[Durelin]

We like Houseless, eh?

I believe we lost the Lorien scout troop a long time ago, and picked up a Mirkwood scout troop, plus four derranged elves, and a pack of orcs and easterlings, who will all meet in Mirkwood: so, bring in Spiders, as well. I'm more than slightly confused, but, ah well. I will attempt to sort all this out.

Here's a brief story outline for the possiblities so far:

Houseless Possibility:

Lorien envoy/scout troop (which one?) find inner border patrols gone, without any signs of dead or with signs of slaughter obvious, and follow tracks to Mirkwood.
-Tracks: Lead into a trap?
-The work of careless orcs and easterlings?
Mirkwood scouts carefully make their way south toward Dol Guldur, perhaps following the trail of the orcs and easterlings sent to take prisoners back to Dol Guldur, and to gain reinforcements?
-Catch up: confrontation, elves freed, learn of Houseless (or just that there’s more of an army back in Mirkwood), run back to help out Lorien group
-Catch up: confrontation: one or some of the Houseless are with the party of orcs and easterlings
a. defeated: cannot face power of Houseles
-Captured?
-Killed?
-Become Houseless?
b. win: orcs and easterlings refuse to take orders from Houseless?
-this seems unlikely, unfortunately
Meanwhile, with Lorien group: come to Mirkwood
-Find ambush awaiting them
Or
-Just catch up with Houseless and crew
-Confront Houseless
-Bring back from dark side
(somewhere in that battle the Mirkwood elves could come to rescue)
Envoy makes contact with Mirkwood elves, at last, and so we come to the united army bit
Army marches from Dol Guldur
Last Stand
Destruction of Ring
Victory

~

shuts eyes Agh! So many fragments!

Examine this very basic and sketchy plot for a moment.

Already, we have lots of battles going on, and lots of running around in the wilderness (a bit confusing right now, and chaotic, though it can be fixed up), following trails of orcs and easterlings. What does this exclude from the story entirely? Females. Now, I I know at least one of you has already said that they had a nifty female elven character in mind.

Plus, we have the Houseless, an incredible power, it seems, for two ‘scout’ or ‘envoy’ parties, even four or five (or ten) united. This kind of excludes us from any kind of believable victory whatsoever. Now, what we could do is have the elves hold out until the destruction of the Ring…but…?

Really, I think we need to define the power of the Houseless. I consider them powerful spirits, perhaps on a level with the Nazgul…though they could be like the Barrow-Wights… If we are going to use the Houseless (they do seem like they belong on X-Files, or perhaps in a movie like ‘The Exorcist’)

Question: What is the beginning purpose of the Lorien envoy/scout troop? Why do they set out? The scout troop could have set out to search for the lost border patrols, but an envoy certainly would not set out to do so.

______________________________________

United Army Possibility #1:
Scouts find the army:
-already on the move
-Preparing to attack
Report back
Seek aid from Thranduil
-Envoy: incorporate more characters, of more types than elven warrior/scout
-Inner borders must hold
-Aid gained from Thranduil: united forces drive back orc army
-End here
or
-Move on to destruction of Dol Guldur

~

In going in this general direction we gain many possibilities, and can have several ‘stories’ running at the same time. The story of Elves in Mirkwood and Lothlorien, male and female, warriors (from the inner border, the scout troop, the envoy, the united Elven army, etc.) and ‘counselors‘. With this wide range of perspectives you gain a much fuller effect of not just the story but the events of Middle-Earth around them.

We could also insert the Houseless in here without too much trouble, perhaps even infiltrating among Thranduil’s counselors and so convincing him that he cannot spare any of his troops, as the onslaught from Dol Guldur has also been a beating for them, and still remains a threat. But, then, we may just have another Wormtongue.

______________________________________

United Army Possibility #2:
Scouts encounter Orc scout troop:
-Skirmish
-Capture orc
-Learn plans of army
From here:
-Move to above possibility,
-Above possibility + Houseless
or
-Lorien stands alone

~

This would enable interaction between orcs and elves beyond meeting them in battle. An interesting possibility, and it can still contain all the aspects of the above general storyline, though it will add time to the playing of the storyline. It gives us an earlier, smaller battle.

______________________________________

Possible capture of scouts:
This would become a more gruesome story, though it would allow the orcs and elves to deal with each other closely. This will not be a pretty sight, though, to focus on hatred from both sides. We could have a minor character captured, but then we enter into another story, one completely separate from the war, and also a rather generic one.

Though, if members of the scouting party were captured, then released with evil spirits within them, we could do the capturing bit, and then move onto one of the storylines containing the Houseless.

______________________________________

What I like concerning the Houseless is Aman’s idea:

Do you think it would be possible that the Houseless, if they weren’t able to find a suitable ‘host’ elf, for whatever reason, would take over the bodies of the Haradrim?

Men already ‘seduced’ by Sauron, already under the power of evil would be a much more cooperative ‘host’, as Aman called it. Then we have an evil power hidden within the army, perhaps with its own agenda separate from that of the army of orcs and easterlings it marches with.

But, this doesn’t allow the same twists as a ‘possessed elf’ would.

I don’t know if that is what you meant, Aman, but that’s what what you said made me think of!

~

Now, here are the possible character types we have discussed so far:

Possible Characters:

Elves:
Warriors: (must be male!)
-Scouts
-Trackers
-‘Bodyguards’ (envoy - could be minor or major)
-Inner Guard
-‘High Guards’ of Caras Galadon (could be minor)
-Soldiers of Mirkwood (could be minor or major)
‘Counselors‘: (can be female)
-Thranduil
-Members of envoy
Minor parts:
-Residents of Caras Galadon (female or male)
-Wives, sisters, family of soldiers
-Messenger
-As part of envoy, etc. (very open part)
-Any of the above parts could be minor parts
Evil/Possessed Elves
Orcs and Easterlings: (all could be minor or major)
-‘Captain’ of Army
-Soldiers
-Scouts
-Captured orc or easterling
-Possessed easterling or orc

______________________________________

Okay...I lied when I said 'brief'. Sorry, I know all that is a lot to take in! (My brain hurts from typing it all…) But, we’re moving really quickly, so I think we need all possibilities laid out for everyone to truly consider them all. Of course, these are only possibilities so far… (the Lord help me! )

Keep up all this creativity (it borders on madness!)

-Durelin

P.S. - It would have looked better if it allowed me to ident. It wouldn't even let me use the space bar... Sorry, tried.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

{This got cross-posted with the above from Durelin, but I'm too lazy to edit it fully -- F}

That seems to be about where we're at for the moment Roa, but I expect Durelin will have a lot of useful comments -- and there are a couple of planners out there I've not even seen post yet!

For my money, I'd like to see the Mirkwood and Lorien Elves stick together as they track the orcs toward Lorien. As for what the orcs have to 'do' -- well, at a thought: travelling across the Anduin river valley, being orcish, sniping amongst themselves, arguing with the Easterlings, launching snap raids at the pursuing Elves, planning their attack on Lorien and then, of course, getting destroyed by the Lorien army (on 22 March).

It looks more and more as though the sack of Dol Guldur is being left out of the story (on 30 March), which makes sense given that the action is concentrating on the attacks and the 'main players' in that sack would be NPCs like Thranduil, Celeborn and Galadriel. Maybe the game could end with a 'flashforward' kind of epilogue where all of our characters could be present for the destruction of the fortress?

One more thing: like I said before, this is all new to me so I don't know if it's even appropriate yet, but IF we do decide to go with the Houseless Elves, I would REALLY want to play one of those guys (I'm having so much fun being all evil and conflicted and not 'good' with my Green Dragon Inn character).

Fordim

[Amanaduial the archer]

What I like concerning the Houseless is Aman’s idea:

Men already ‘seduced’ by Sauron, already under the power of evil would be a much more cooperative ‘host’, as Aman called it. Then we have an evil power hidden within the army, perhaps with its own agenda separate from that of the army of orcs and easterlings it marches with.

But, this doesn’t allow the same twists as a ‘possessed elf’ would.

I don’t know if that is what you meant, Aman, but that’s what what you said made me think of!

Durelin, yes that is what I meant, especially the part about the 'hidden agenda' as you put it - I'm glad you liked it. Think we can include it?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I have to say that I don't like the idea of having the Men as the ones seduced by the Fea of the Houseless. First, it really wouldn't provide the kind of 'wrinkles' that a seduced (not a 'possessed' -- that is a little too X-Files-ish) Elf would provide; with the Elves being seduced then their friends from Lorien could save them. Also, a Man taken over by a Houseless Elf would hardly be much of a struggle -- a centuries-old Fea would make mincemeat of a Man and not provide much of interest in terms of internal struggle.

We could split the difference and have the Houseless Fea consume some Easterlings after they are ejected from the Elves(?). That way, the Houseless wouldn't just disappear from the story.

Ooo I just had a thought -- we could have different players for the Houseless and for those whom they seduce. For example: we have three characters, each written by a separate player: an Elf, one of the (bodiless) Houseless, and an Easterling Man. For the first part of the story, the Elf and Houseless players vie for control of the Elf's "will and body" and the Easterling is 'on his own'; then, after the ejection of the Houseless from the Elf, it flees to the Easterling and the two writers vie for control (or whatever) of that single body. Does this make sense?

This, obviously, increases the number of potential players as well as the complexity of the game. I would therefore suggest that we have one Houseless only, seducing first the Elf then the Man.

And one point, in response to a query from Durelin made waaaay a the top of the page. I wrote to her early on that Thranduil and Celeborn join forces in the destruction of Dol Guldur. Durelin then went and checked the appendices and found no such merger -- she queried this, sending me scrambling for the appendices and *gasp* I had, indeed, misremembered the events! The armies of Mirkwood and Lorien met after the destruction of the fortress -- by Celeborn and Galadriel -- "on the first day of the Elven New Year" and renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen (sp?). This might make the involvement of the Mirkwood Elves a little more tricky -- certainly a scouting party is still possible, but I don't think we need move toward having a whole army of Mirky Elves.

Fordim

PS Not posting too much, am I?

[Arvedui III]

The houseless elves struggle idea is a cool one. Lots of chances for angst and profoundness and epic clash-of wills-ness there. But, I don't think, if we have the evil feas, that we need Easterlings. We could concentrate more on the struggle between the feas, their hosts, and other elves. There's all kinds of possibilities there. (the one that came first to my mind was kinslaying ) That's story enough. Plus, that way, we could have more houseless spirits, which could go away when Celeborn and Galadriel throw down Dol Guldur.

As to the Mirkwood and Lorien elves: Well, if we're going with the idea of an envoy or a patrol, then the multiple storylines would be fun. If we mix in the evil houseless elves, then it might get far too complicated, and a single type of elves would be better. Either way is cool.

P.S. Not at all, Fordim.

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't think it would be too complicated at all- indeed, if we leave one of the groups out, it could be terribly under complcated. I do like the idea of the struggle for control. I don't know about the easterlings though. Would an ancient Fea stoop so low as to seduce a mortal? Even good elves tend to look down on mankind- what would a tainted elf think? Of course if they were really desperate they might.

Then again- the idea of posting from an easterling's pers[ective would be intriguing. I believe it was Faramir who pointed out that not all who served the Dark Lord were willing to do so.

[Durelin]

...a seduced (not a 'possessed' -- that is a little too X-Files-ish) Elf

Ah, now there's a problem: never in Tolkien's works has an elf been seduced by an evil power (as far as I know), and I believe it is widely accepted that elves cannot be corrupted, or at least, seduced by evil powers, or any power at all, truly. The taking over of a body is too X-Files, and the seduction of an elf is just unbelievable, in my mind. That is why I believe the Houseless settling down in an Easterling is much more realistic, and much more doable.

I'm afraid Easterlings are a definite. Sorry, but Aman, Aylwen, and I like 'em too much! And both Aman and Aylwen are wonderful Easterlings, as I well know. Truly, it gives more variability in race. Then we have interaction between orcs and men, orcs and elves, and elves and men.

...not provide much of interest in terms of internal struggle.

If I was an evil spirit, I wouldn't look for a struggle for some fun, I'd look for a willing candidate that I could easily use to the full potential of my power. An elf will never be defined as an 'easy candidate'.

...what would a tainted elf think?

I believe you need to explain yourself on that one, Roa.

I believe it was Faramir who pointed out that not all who served the Dark Lord were willing to do so.

Yes, but that was movie Faramir. Still, I believe the fact that they are men, not creatures like orcs, can mean that they truly are not all that willing to fight for Sauron, even if they are (which they probabkly are) truly evil. So, yes, it is interesting, adding another perspective.

Durelin, yes that is what I meant, especially the part about the 'hidden agenda' as you put it

Good, I was pretty sure, until I looked at it again when I went to quote it and went 'wait a minute...that's what she meant, right?' One of those last minute uncertainties.

Think we can include it?

I hope so, though it seems it is being rather slammed by several people...

I had, indeed, misremembered the events!

Thought so. This, of course, means that we could do things with fighting in Mirkwood as well, as, most likely, the two realms were fighting at the same time at some point. Then we could always rap up with a nice little ceremony in the middle of Mirkwood renaming. I like happy endings...though I do like happy endings with a twist even better...

Three different players for only two actual bodies...but...how on earth do you roleplay a evil spirit floating between being in a body and out of a body...existing, not existing... Afraid it can't be pulled. And how is a soul, mind, supposed to fight for its body, battle back a spirit... Its all very abstract, and borders on religious beliefs.

I believe someone talked about 'well-rounded-ness' (made up word, I know...they phrased it differently...). I believe that comes from a good number of perspectives, and a story that fits into the world around us. I'm not trying to slam your ideas, I'm justing trying to see what fits: I'm trying to get a well-rounded game created. So thanks for understanding, as I know I have been questioning and sort of turning down ideas a lot. It is all constructive, believe me, and I much appreciate all the ideas.

Thanks again!

-Durelin

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Well, I guess I can live with a few Easterlings -- but I've got to keep banging the seduced Elf drum here:

There does seem to be something of a bias in the Downs toward Elves -- which is understandable, I suppose, seeing as they are pretty cool and the nearest and dearest things to Professor Tolkien's heart; but they are far far FAR from perfect beings! Feanor himself -- he of the Silmarils -- led the Kinslaying for heaven's sake!! And Celebrimbor was so keen on making the Rings of Power that he didn't even notice that the person who was helping him to do so was Sauron. And let's not forget Galadriel who came pretty darn close to taking the Ring for herself when given the chance -- if we are simply to dismiss the idea out of hand that the Elves can be seduced by the forces of darkness, then we utterly undo the victory scored by Galadriel at that moment. If there's no 'real' danger of seduction by the Ring, then what's the big deal in her being able to resist it?

So if Galadriel can be threatened with seduction by the Ring of Power, then I don't see why a lesser Elf could not be threatened with seduction by a dark spirit. There's a big difference between seduction and corruption -- a good person can be seduced into doing something very bad of which they later repent (like Feanor). A good person can be seduced into doing something that they don't even know is bad (like Celebrimbor). A good person can be seduced to the point of thinking about doing something bad and then pulling back at the last moment (like Galadriel). It's even possible for a good person to be seduced into doing something evil and having to depend upon Providence to intervene and save him (like Frodo). In none of these instances has the good person been corrupted or rendered 'evil'.

And wait a minute! I just remembered orcs -- they were 'made' by Morgoth who took some captured elves and then, and I think I'm quoting here, "corrupted" them!!

It's precisely for this reason that I like LotR so much (now getting wildly off the topic of planning an rpg. . .) It's not a story of perfectly-unbelievable goodies (Boromir? Saruman? Denethor?)fighting utterly-unredeemable baddies (Gollum? The Haradrim that book-Sam/movie-Faramir speculates about?). There is good and evil, but EVERY character in the whole mythos of Middle-Earth is a moral agent who must make the choice between good and evil him- or herself. Sure it's probably extremely rare -- especially in the Third Age -- for an Elf to be seduced by evil, but if it were impossible then wouldn't it have made a whole lot more sense to give the One Ring to Elrond or Glorfindel rather than leaving it to a hobbit??

As to the problem of how to write this sort of conflict -- I would think that it would be easy to do some very interesting things as two minds argue with one another, decieve one another, trick one another (Gollum-Smeagol comes to mind here. . .) Anyone who has even been seduced, or done some seducing, can attest to how interesting the whole process can be. . .

(I can see Durelin's point, though, about having two writers for a 'single' character (fea and host) -- it would be cool, but would probably introduce more difficulties than not. . .)

At any rate, I think I might have got that out of my system. To sum up:

1) I like the idea of Easterlings

2) I would really like to have some Houseless fea seducing some Elves (but I am happy to play the game without this element should people be dead-set against it)

3) I'm ambivalent to one group of Elves from Lorien versus two groups from Lorien and Mirkwood; whichever is going to work best in whatever scenario we end up with

4) I really like the 'happy ending' proposal by Durelin; the ceremony would be a good chance to wrap up the story lines I suspect

5) I don't like the idea of the spiders

6) I'm never going to be able to keep track of all this

7) I'm having fun

[Amanaduial the archer]

You leave me with no choice but to reply in a bulletted form of my own

- Easterlings stay - Aylwen is most certainly an excellent easterling, Durelin likes them, and playing my easterling character, Kane...well, he's still one of my favourites (obviously I won't be playing him here - it would involve going back in time...)

- Spiders - they're topical, and they would only be a sidenote, maybe a few posts, that's all really. The point would be that it would give the easterlings a way to get away (however narrowly), as if they were headed towards a spiders' den, the elves, who would know the forest well, probably wouldn't chase them, dismissing them as being done for ERGO they have a chance of escape - although maybe not all of them will get away *snickers* Goodbye NPCs...

- Elves - they are a favourite on the Downs and on any role-playing site because they are so much 'better' than men, and have the ability to be so much more powerful, experienced, wise, ancient...etc. Welcome to the legacy of the 'Mary-Sue'.

- The Houseless - how did they really come into this even?! Ok, anyway, they are apparently staying. But a thought about the Houseless being played seperately...all I can say is that it would definitely have to be a secondary character for most of the time, or some people would spend a heck of alot of time doing absolutely nothing. But I like the idea of it. And, as Durelin said, elves are not easy targets - the weaker and much less experienced Haradrim would be much easier, and when you're desperate for a body and there are some nearby...well, I would take the chance, no matter whether they are mortal or not. I suspect the easterlings wouldn't be too keen on this, either - the Houseless might work like a parasite on its much less experienced human 'host', and when finished with it, might kill it. So picture the scene once the Haradrim (sorry to hearken back to them again, but...) have been forced to flee from the battle - they would be in mortal, almost uncomprehending fear of these things which they can't see or identify until it's too late...well, I'm seeing a plotline there.

- Elves groups - go with one from Lorien, one from Mirkwood...and some of those from both would have to jump on speedy steeds (try saying that when drunk) to save the day when they learn of the Dol Guldur force a-heading straight for the Golden Wood.

- Seduced v Possessed - possessed is x-filesish, yes, but seduced isn't really...correct. Technically they probably wouldn't have been seduced into it by promises (ooh, maybe actually - think about that), they would (in general) have probably been tricked into it. So possessed?

[Roa_Aoife]

Sorry 'bout the quote mistake. I had my Fun Faramir Phrases all mix-up. I don't think the term possessed is too X-files-ish at all. It is a term commonly used in fantacy to mean that a bodiless spirit has taken over an unwilling host. With that definition, it fits perfectly. And I don't recall a single episode of X-files (I watched my fair share) that dealt with possession. But anyway, I can see how the Houseless would consider the easterlings (any body in a pinch).

I would like to keep the three groups. And I still say that it would make things far more interesting to have possessed Elves- even if the Housless are secondary. But perhaps the possessed could be secondary and the Houseless main players. Once taken, the possessed elves couldn't really do much- the houseless would be in control.

The groups- as I said- I would like to keep. Of course, some would need to be able to get to where they're going quickly- that would be the emmissaries from Lorien. The scouting party wouldn't use horses; too many details would be lost to the scouts. They could split the horses after they meet up. Some would ride to warn Celeborn, the others would go to Mirkwood for help. If it's such a big force from Dol Guldur, then Lorien would need the help.

Am I on the right track?

[piosenniel]

I’d like something clarified:

. . . For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grief, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone.

. . . Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgment of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies of lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for the mastery of the body may be gravely injured, even if it is not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them . . .

--- from Morgoth’s Ring; The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II); “Laws and Customs among the Eldar”; ‘Of Re-birth and other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos’:


Tolkien specifically says that the Houseless do one of two things in order to attain a body (what sort of body isn't specified):

• 1.) The Houseless eject the other fëa from its body and inhabit the new body, using it for their own purposes.
  
• OR
  
• 2.) The Houseless plead for shelter and if admitted, will try to enslave both the will and body of the host.

Is this where the idea for the game’s Houseless is going? What you’re talking about when you mention “possession” and “seduction”.

__________________________________


Also, if you proceed with these characters, please limit the playing of them to the planners only. That way, when the character bios for them are submitted, the other moderator and I will be able review them as remaining true to Tolkien’s parameters for them.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I was very much thinking of the Houseless operating in manner 2 -- pleading with the host for shelter, gaining it, and then 'seducing' the host (i.e. convincing the host to submit to the Houseless by tricking the host, lying to the host, scaring the host, threatening the host -- in short, doing everything that one mind does to another to convince/cajole or manipulate aquiesence rather than simply 'taking over' -- which, so far as I can tell, never happens in Tolkien's mythos).

[piosenniel]

Thanks, FH!

That's doable for me.

[Durelin]

First off, I am afraid I have some bad news:

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen will no longer be able to take part in the planning of this RPG. She has many commitments and is a very busy person, and so she has most sadly, though most considerately, stepped aside, rather than committing herself further and not having the time to post. I have asked her if she would like me to perhaps keep a part for her when it comes time to play, if I may, Pio. Hopefully she will be much less busy (does that make sense...much less busy?) when the time comes to play this darn thing. Darn thing, as fun as it is.

She will be greatly missed!

~

Pio: Number 2 is what I was thinking, as well, and what I interpreted from all that Fordim spoke of the Houseless.

It does look like houseless are staying....

And here we go... (more and more quoting!)

And let's not forget Galadriel who came pretty darn close to taking the Ring for herself when given the chance

Again, I believe that was more of movie Galadriel. And, of course, we are dealing with a desire here, a desire to hold power, which is evil, yes, but it is a desire, not a complete spirit and mind, a bodiless being trying to convince someone to let it have their body.

If there's no 'real' danger of seduction by the Ring, then what's the big deal in her being able to resist it?

Yes, but, again, evil bodiless beings have nothing to do with the Ring, except for the fact that they're evil. It isn't like these spirits were created by Sauron. Plus, many people being able to resist seduction by a voice inside their head does not make it less dangerous. The fact is, a fight would rage between the owner of teh body and the bodiless for quite a while. As the houseless persists, fear and exhaustion could leave to giving in. But I will speak more about that, and my new idea that stems from that, later.

The Houseless plead for shelter and if admitted, will try to enslave both the will and body of the host.

See, the word 'plead' is used their. First this bodiless being must ask permission to get into the persons head! (I assume that's where they'd go...) Rather tricky, when the body you are trying to steal is that of an immortal whose soul is good (and probably rather clean, if you know what I mean).

they were 'made' by Morgoth who took some captured elves and then, and I think I'm quoting here, "corrupted" them!!

Ah, but that took Morgoth time, and a good amount of trouble, I'm sure, as I said the overcoming of a body holding an ultimately good spirit would.

Sure it's probably extremely rare -- especially in the Third Age -- for an Elf to be seduced by evil

I'm glad you recognized that, as well. So, hopefully, you will agree that one houseless is a good number? One houseless: one easy elf? Sounds pretty believable, I guess.

~

Okay, now I will wrap up my idea:

If we must have houseless, as it seems we must (or I will have a mutiny! ), I’d like it if we have only one, and...I believe it might be best if the Houseless does not gain entrance to the body, throwing out the spirit, right away. Perhaps a war could rage between the two spirits for much of the game. Also, the elf must be in some way easier to seduce than others. As Pio suggested before, this might be one of the elves in the outer border patrol, as the houseless would have more easily gain access to the mind, and so the entire body, without the original owner. Perhaps, in the end, once the Houseless has exhausted the other fëa in fear and struggle of the mind, it does not seduce the other fëa into departing from the body or anything, but moves onto #1 in Pio's clarification, ejecting the weakened spirit from the body.

But, the problem with this is that it brings in a tormented character, and 'voices in the head'. It brings in psychological nasties that can be interesting...but, they can also be, as I said, nasty. A story can delve too deeply into the tormented mind, and that, to me, is not an enjoyable thing to write or read about. So, this would be a very tricky thing to accomplish, if perhaps more believable and...as 'down to earth' ( or should I say 'down to Middle-Earth?) as these Houseless can get!

Of course, anything with the Houseless is going to be tricky to formulate and maintain.

possessed is x-filesish, yes, but seduced isn't really...correct

Yes, I know what you mean. I'm having trouble choosing. At first, I argued against possessed, and in this post (and I believe in my past one as well) I argued against 'seduced'...It doesn't seem right, does it?

You know what? You're going to hate me for saying this, but...I think it's a combination of the two!

I do like the Spider idea, though it would almost be a fun little tidbit just thrown in there...still, it does leave an option open for a cameo of someone as a Spider. That would be interesting...I hate real Spiders, but fantasy ones are interesting!

Welcome to the legacy of the 'Mary-Sue'.

Yes, elves are hard to play, without any evil spirits in the mix, as actual Tolkien elves. That is why I made this largely invitational, and part of the reason why I wished to go through all this planning. And why I am being so meticulous and perhaps disagreeable. I just have a great desire to do this right!

And that brings me to another bit that I must notify you of:

If the storyline of the game continues in the direction it is heading, then there will no longer be the option of female characters. Sorry, but right now there is no room for them, it seems. We can't have them traipsing around the woods where orcs might be lurking, and, of course, they can't be scouts or warriors, etc. Also, there has been no room left for any even secondary perspectives from back in Caras Galadon, or so it seems to me that this would make the story far too...cramped.

Anything I forgot? …Probably… Oh well. I’ll be back soon!

-Durelin

P.S. - I’m glad you’re having so much fun, Fordim!