Elvish Reproduction

[burrahobbit]

I've gotten to wondering, and I'm wondering at what other people thing. Did female Elves have a monthly cycle? Certainly not, I think, but would they have a cycle at all? I'm not sure about this. Elvish and Manish hroar are basically the same, but Elves have much more control of theirs. A female elf would need to go through the same process leading to ovulation and fertilization, but would she need to constantly cycle through the process as Manish females do? This is the part that I am unsure of. Elves are in control of their bodies. Could a female elf pause her cycle after menses but before the buildup towards fertilization? Would Elves have a cycle similar to that of Men? It wouldn't be as frequent (imagine how annoying that would be for an elf!), but it couldn't be too infrequent either. Laws and Customs of the Eldar says that the Elves have all of their children fairly young in life, and all at once.

[quote]But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding.[quote]

For example, Elrond's children were born 111 years apart. We might be able to think that even shorter spaces of time were common as Laws and Customs also says

There were seldom more than four children in any house

We can take that to mean "at once," I think.

I'm going to stop now before I fall asleep or ramble too much more. What do you think?

[Telchar]

Im sorry to say it Burra - but this is precisely what I dont need to know about JRRTs world, so I cant help you here [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] - Personal opinion: This is not what Tolkien is about...

T

[mark12_30]

I'm much more interested in how and when they grow up. Would a 12 yr old elf look like a 12 yr old human? Do they mature slowly? When do they become "teenagers"? Somebody posted once, somewhere, that coming of age is 50? I wrote a fanfic and wildly guessed that elves took twice as long to grow up, so my 26 year old elf-maiden gets treated as if she's human at 13. Sort of. Was I even close???

[Mhoram]

OF THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
PERTAINING TO MARRIAGE AND OTHER MATTERS
RELATED THERETO: TOGETHER WITH THE
STATUTE OF FINWE AND MIRIEL AND THE DEBATE
OF THE VALAR AT ITS MAKING.

AElfwine's Preamble.

[The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind
more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year
old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for
their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless
there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and
Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at

play might well have believed that they were the children of
Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days
elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire
of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of
memory was still light upon them.(1)
This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small
limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their
skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third
year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to
a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of
childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while
Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no
more than seven years.(2) Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar
attain the stature and shape in which their lives would after-
wards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before
they were full-grown.]

[mark12_30]

Many, many thanks, Mhoram!! What book was that from?

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Telchar]

Hi Mark - mho momentarily passed out [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] but the passage he quoted is from HoME XII - the peoples of ME - if I remember right. And I must say that what you bring up is an interesting topic. Unfortunately its a long time since I read 'Laws and Customs ' but it deals to some degree with what you're looking for.
If you write serious fanfic and want to get your stuff correct about the Eldarlie, then you might want to check it out.

Cheers

[burrahobbit]

HOME 10, Telchar. But, er, lets try to get back on topic.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

burrahobbit, you have brought up an interesting topic. I'm sure, Telchar, that Tolkien would never have mentioned it, since it was highly improper for public discussion in his day, especially so in the male society he enjoyed most. However, in today's society, it is an acceptable topic, less offensive than many things openly spoken of on daily talk shows!

Of course, without a definitive statement by JRRT, we can only speculate. But what the heck?! We've speculated on so many topics here on the Barrow-Downs, why not on this one?! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Since elves and humans could mate and have children, the basic reproductive processes must have been the same. I would assume, as burrahobbit does, that the female cycle would be less frequent, also not for as large a portion of their earthly sojourn (can't say lifetime for immortals! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). In keeping with Mhoram's quote that

their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies

I suggest that they could perhaps influence fertility, a natural family-planning ability in their genetics, maybe.

I wonder about the gestation period - how long would an elven pregnancy be? Again, mixed-race children would indicate that the development before birth was similar and probably for approximately the same length of time.

[burrahobbit]

As for the begetting and bearing of children: a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf-child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so, and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year. For the most part these days come in the Spring.

[onewhitetree]

I think they probably had enough control over their bodies to engage in reproductive functions when they had a desire to conceive, and this would be the only time they'd menstruate.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: onewhitetree ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

If elven women were aware of the day of conception, as burrahobbit's quote indicates, they must have had some kind of active control over their reproductive capability. In that case, I'm not sure that menstruation would have happened, since it only occurs when conception does not take place.

[onewhitetree]

You have a good point, Estelyn.

I think that by your train of thought, menstruation would be ruled out altogether. However, if they did have cycles, I think it would be in the way I suggested. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I'm also curious as to what signs of "coming of age" elves would have, other than that. Aside from actual age, of course.

[Mister Underhill]

I imagine Elvish acne-creams would be just killer.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[onewhitetree]

pointless post warning:

rofl

[Rimbaud]

OrcsyClean.

[Raefindel]

I have a question that would fall into this category. I have posted it before and recieved no answer. So here it goes:

If ,as mentioned, Elves choose to concieve or not to concieve, I was wondering What about TWINS? Does an elf Choose to carry twins? Or is this a surprise?

[burrahobbit]

I have no idea. There might be something that can give us clues in something written about Elladan and Elrohir, but I don't know.

[Raefindel]

Hey! Can anyone here answer my question? What about Twins?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Rae, no one can definitively answer, of course, but in my opinion, twins could just happen without being a conscious choice. Since we know only of identical twins (Elladan and Elrohir), I assume that they were the product of a single fertilized cell at the beginning. The split that produces twins is no choice of the mother, though she would probably realize sometime during pregnancy that she was carrying twins. So the birth would be no surprise, I assume.

(I would also assume that no mother in her right mind would consciously choose to have twins!! One baby at a time is enough! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Telchar]

Ok this is not going to be the most diplomatic post I've ever made, mainly because, as I've said before' I think this topic is a load of dingo kidneys.

Estelyn said:

The split that produces twins is no choice of the mother, though she would probably realize sometime during pregnancy that she was carrying twins. So the birth would be no surprise, I assume.

See, my point is that we first have a irrelevant topic, as Tolkien never discussed it or in any way gave any written thought to it - then we take the topic and base our arguments conserning it on assumptions.

The bad guy in Under Siege II said:

Assumption is the mother of all ****-ups

Sorry about the language...

Actually I would go as far as saying that this is assumption based on speculations.

But I do agree that Elvish women did not have control over the choice to have either Twins or not - you would kinda think/(ASSUME [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )that if you had 5 sons already a wise woman like Nerdanel would think twice before getting Amrod and Amras.

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Telchar ]

[*Varda*]

Telchar, by your reasoning, most threads on this forum would disappear. Part of the point of the forum is to discuss things Tolkien never addressed. If we could only discuss things he'd answered, there wouldn't be much to talk about.

I can't help but get the feeling it's more the subject than the 'un-Tolkienness' that makes you uncomfortable.

[Telchar]

I agree Varda that more or less half the threads has no place in such a forum - however that is not for me to deside. The reason I choose to pick on this thread is that it is started by burrahobbit - because I think he has so much more potiential than discussing what imo is irrelevant in regard to Tolkiens writings.
I also agree that we do have to speculate and assume in regard to many topics where we dont know excactly what was JRRTs intent - but we at least have to base those assumtions and speculations on what JRRT wrote on similar subjects.

As long as that is not the case we could just as well discuss Legolas underware or the female cycle of a Barbiedoll.

Cheers T

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

As long as that is not the case we could just as well discuss Legolas underware or the female cycle of a Barbiedoll.

That's not a bad idea. Why didn't I think of it? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

I agree Varda that more or less half the threads has no place in such a forum - however that is not for me to deside.

Telchar, I didn't say the threads were pointless. I said that by your reasoning they would be - not that I felt the same.

And isn't it up to Burrahobbit what he chooses to talk about?

But I've said my opinion on that, so now I'll get back to the actual topic.

I doubt Elves would be able to choose whether they would have twins, similar to humans. They must have some sort of monthly cycle, to allow the egg to be fertilized etc - I don't see why they would be any different to humans in this respect. But elves did have more control over their bodies so perhaps the process would be more painless.

Note: Telchar mentioned that this was all based on assumptions. So I will just point out, yes it is, and this should not be taken as fact. The point of a discussion board is to speculate, discuss, sometimes on previous assumptions as we are doing here.

[Raefindel]

I also drew the same conclusion, (Twins being a surprise) but I'm unfamiliar with Tolkien's writings other than the Hobbit and LOTR. I also wanted other's opinions as well. Thank you for your input everyone.

[Baran]

I think it is safe to say that elves didn't have monthly cycles, that would be a waste of energy considering how few children they had. If they couldn't controll their fertilization, they probably had working prevention methods. Tolkien did of course not write about this subject because og the reasons Estelyn Telconar described.

With all due respect Telchar, if the subject discussed here is to "un-Tolkien" for you, you don't have to participate. Imagine if all the people at the downs made it a custom to post in threads they didn't like just to make sure everdybody knew they didn't do so. Personally I would have around 5000 posts by now, instead of around 50 [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

I seem to have read a few times that Elves would have been able to control their cycle more considering how few children they had. They didn't really seem to have any less children than we do nowadays, and Galadriel had 4 brothers.

[Mister Underhill]

The average human female has between 300,000 and 400,000 eggs left at the onset of puberty, according to a site I found. Assuming similar biology in Elvish females, this would provide for some 23,000 to 30,000+ years of fertility assuming a normal cycle pattern and no menopause (which is caused by a certain physiological depletion which it seems safe to assume wouldn't be an issue for Elves). So egg supply shouldn't be a big issue in the frequency of an Elvish cycle.

On the other hand, the whole immortality thing and details like Legolas not needing sleep are indicative of some pretty big differences in physiology between Men and Elves. In light of these abilities, it would hardly be surprising to learn that Elvish woman had the ability to control their cycle.

I haven't been able to find any hard data on Barbie Dolls or what sort of under-"ware" Legolas might be sporting...

[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Lush]

Think about it in these terms: Elves are supposed to live forever, right? Therefore they must have a great deal of control over their bodies, or we would be looking at a major population crisis. Unless, of course, sex wasn't something the Elves had on a regular basis. In which case, we can only feel very, very sorry for them.

Yes, yes, this is all speculation, and a bit silly as well, but it's a valid topic nonetheless. I mean, what's the big deal about menstruation? It's nothing dirty or scary, just part of life that more than half of this world's population has to deal with, and just because Tolkien didn't address it, doesn't mean we can't.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I would also assume that no mother in her right mind would consciously choose to have twins!! One baby at a time is enough!

Yeah, that's true, but I would hope that if my mom was an elf she wouldn't have made that decision!

But I don't think elves chose to have twins or not. It just happened! And for elves menstruating, I would certainly hope that they didn't! They're immortal, how horrible would that be for them!! (well, for the elven women)

[Frodo Baggins]

Yes Elladan and Elrohir are exactly 111 years older than Arwen.

Question: Were Elrond and Elros twins???

"Unless, of course, sex wasn't something the Elves had on a regular basis"

I think that Lush may have a very good point here. Given the immortality of elves (or at any rate, no deaths from old age or natural causes), then I'd conclude that there would be minimal evolutionary pressure to reproduce, and certainly not to reproduce at the same degree of fecundity that is necessary for a shorter-lived race such as humans.

So, JRRT has already covered this by limiting the elven period of fertility to a relatively short space of time after marriage. We might speculate whether this is because reproductive ability (which might perhaps be shown outwardly by the onset of regular menstruation in elven females?? - or maybe not; just a guess, since this subject has been raised earlier on the thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) is triggered by the onset of sexual relations between a troth-plighted couple, or whether fertility is controlled deliberately - either artificially or by body-control - by an individual elvish couple.

My bet is that JRRT's beliefs would preclude any preference for birth control that was artificial - but that's just a hunch, feel free to ignore it!

Sorry if I've offended any creationists by applying theory of evolution here: I have no wish to offend, and apologise if I have upset anyone. We can all enjoy the same books, after all!

:-) Silqeleni

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Sorry if I've offended any creationists by applying theory of evolution here: I have no wish to offend, and apologise if I have upset anyone...

Not at all! It would be ridiculous to flame someone who thinks differently in a discussion like this. I'm sorry that there's the need to apologize at all.

First off, I disagee with your idea on two points:

1 - I don't think what you're talking about is evolution (at least not the evolution I know from years of propagated science textbooks) because we are given no indication that any changes were made from the original form of elven physiology or brain mass. The very existence of elves flies in the face of evolutionary processes. Even if there was evolution, we can't be sure that there were enough generations among the long-lived elves to give rise to major changes like that. Remember that for mortals, the rate of evolution would be measured in time, but for immortals the number of generations is what matters.

Elves cannot be shown to claim kinship with apes, jellyfish or mushrooms any more than Tolkien's men can be. We know that they were created as the first and second born directly from Iluvatar's theme, and unless Cuivenen was a boiling primordial soup from which celestial beings crawled out as half-fish, evolution is not applicable to this.

2 - One can't overlay outside laws/theories to the laws that already govern Middle Earth because ours don't apply with any consistency there, and are therefore no longer laws. Theories are even less compatible because they're one community's idea applied to another man's world. Evolution has yet to be solidly proven on our side of reality, much less in Middle Earth.

[Lush]

My bet is that JRRT's beliefs would preclude any preference for birth control that was artificial - but that's just a hunch, feel free to ignore it!

Well, we know two things, don't we? We know Tolkien was a Catholic. We also know the Vatican's opinion of artificial birth control. Therefore, I think it's safe to conclude that there were no "Trojan men" among the race of Elves. Unless we're talking about some very bad Elves.

[Lalaith]

Having been directed to this thread from the elves topic, I just wanted to add a couple of things. Yes, I think Elros and Elrond were twins. Twins run in human families, maybe they also do in elven ones.
Also, something I remember reading in UT. Referring to Aldarion and Erendis, it is mentioned that the Eldar refrained from having children if there was going to be a period of seperation between man and wife, and that the Numenorians also followed this custom.
So, did they exercise self control, or did they engage in un-Vatican practices?

[GreatWarg]

I have noticed in reading The Silmarillion and others of Tolkien's works, that Elves seem to frequently give birth to twins. It was said that Elf females had no control over twins in earlier posts. Can we can assume, if they did not willingly give birth to twins, that it is common for cells to divide, and thusly twins to be derived?

Also, does it seem that there are always more Elf males being born? Feanor has no daughters, for example, and Galadriel was the only daughter. Can we safely assume that female Elves tend to give birth to more males than females?

Well, that's all I had to wonder about that had something remotely to do with this topic.

GreatWarg

[burrahobbit]

Can you give us a nice list of examples, GreatWarg?

[The Saucepan Man]

Perhaps Elvish females remains fertile for only a short (in Elvish terms) period (no pun intended), say 150-200 years or so. This would explain why their children are born relatively early on in their marriages.

Possibly, as silqeleni suggested, the onset of fertility is triggered by impending marriage. Does anyone know of Elvish children born out of wedlock?

Also, I think someone indicated that most Elvish children tend to be born in Spring. Perhaps the females are only fertile once per year (which would certainly go some ways towards relieving the burden of menstruating for some 200 years). Since their gestation period is a year, this would tie in with our own ideas about Spring being the season of fertility (Rites of Spring, new born lambs and all that).

Pure speculation, I know, but it seems to make sense to me.

[Isilmëiel]

Can we safely assume that female Elves tend to give birth to more males than females?

Well I think we can safely assume that it is the females giving birth...... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Gorwingel]

I would just suspect that the elves had this kind of like the race of men. But I am not very knowledgable in this topic (Sitting here wondering why anyone would want to know this, no offense) I could understand the twins question though. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]