Race parents

[Potatothan]

When they named the Hobbits and such, they referred to them as: Frodo, son of Drogo, Araogorn, son of Arathorn, gimli son of Gloín and stuff like that. But that is not the case with the elves and orcs. It's true that there are not many fameous orcs in lord of the rings, so that might explain that part, but why is legolas referred to as: Legolas of the woodland realm and not legolas son of Thrandhuil?

Did it had something to do with the age of elves? I doubt it since they found famely bonds rather important.

~Potatothan

[Lord of Angmar]

I do not think there is any specific reason for it. Just as Frodo is sometimes called Frodo son of Drogo and sometimes called Frodo Baggins, I am sure Legolas is sometimes referred to as Legolas son of Thranduil or Elrond as Elrond son of Earendil (though that may be a bit of a touchy subject ).

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Lord of Angmar

Just as Frodo is sometimes called Frodo son of Drogo and sometimes called Frodo Baggins, I am sure Legolas is sometimes referred to as Legolas son of Thranduil or Elrond as Elrond son of Earendil (though that may be a bit of a touchy subject ).

Why is that a touchy subject? I remember Aragorn talking about Bilbo 'having the cheek to write verses about Earendil in the house of Elrond', but I never understood it.

[Lord of Angmar]

Elrond and his brother, Elros, were kidnapped by Maedhros and Maglor while their father Earendil was sailing in Vingilot attempting to reach the Undying Lands. Thus, Elrond was not raised by his father but by two of the Sons of Feanor, who slew many of his people, the exiles of Doriath and Gondolin.

[Legolas]

In the case of Legolas, his father's name is used a couple of times. The main reason we don't see it more is that he isn't introduced or asked his identity nearly as much as Frodo.

'Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.'

He was named Elf-friend because of the great love that grew between him and Legolas, son of King Thranduil, and because of his reverence for the Lady Galadriel.

[Lhunardawen]

I would suppose it has something to do with the fact that practically nobody from the Third Age has been around when the parents of the Elves have been in Middle-Earth. For example, none would call Galadriel the daughter of Finarfin because, after all, are they aware that he is her father?

[Potatothan]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

I would suppose it has something to do with the fact that practically nobody from the Third Age has been around when the parents of the Elves have been in Middle-Earth. For example, none would call Galadriel the daughter of Finarfin because, after all, are they aware that he is her father?

Ohw right, so it WAS something to do with the age. Anyone knows who Thrandhuil is related too? I always figured he was with the elves that stayed in middle-earth after the summon of the valar. That case he would be quite old, or is he just a descendant of them?

~Potatothan

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Potatothan

Anyone knows who Thrandhuil is related too? I always figured he was with the elves that stayed in middle-earth after the summon of the valar. That case he would be quite old, or is he just a descendant of them?

~Potatothan

Off the top of my head, I can't recall Thranduil's family tree (I am sure someone else on this thread will), but have a look at the chapter "Flies and Spiders" in THE HOBBIT for a description of the Elves of Mirkwood - "For most of them...were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West." Thranduil must be pretty old, because Legolas says, in THE TWO TOWERS, that Fangorn made him feel young for the first time in a long time and describes his companions as "you children". And Legolas is, of course, Thranduil's child, so must be younger than him.

[Firefoot]

It seems like the ___ son of ____ is used most often in greetings and introductions. I would say it is used as a way of identification. In Legolas's case for example, most people probably didn't know who he was, but they probably would know who Thranduil was, being that he had been king for the entire 3rd Age. (Before Thranduil it was his father Oropher, who was slain in the War of the Last Alliance.) Aragorn often used the "son of Arathorn" when introducing himself. To the hobbits in Bree "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can save you, I will." To Éomer: "Elendil! I am Aragorn son of Arathorn...". to name a few. Someone like Galadriel or Elrond wouldn't need this form of ID because they were obviously quite well-known.

[Findegil]

The history of the Mirkwood-Elves can be found in Unfinished Tales. I will provide a short summary:
Thranduil was the son of Oropher. Oropher was a Sindarin Elf of Doraith that refused to life together with the Noldor when the Elves of Doriath fled to the mouth of Sirion and later to Lindon. He wandered east and settled in the vale of Anduin in the woods around Amon Lac (later Dol Guldur). Since the Sindar had more knowledge the Nandor and Avari they found in the woods they established them self as leaders and Oropher founded a kingdom of the Wood-Elves in southern Mirkwood. In the course of the Second Age Galadriel for the first time lifed in Lórien and influenced the Wood-Elves of that realm. Oropher still didn't liked the Noldor and moved his kingdom to the Woods around the Mountians of Mirkwood to free himself and his people from Galadriels influence.
In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher led his people to the Battle at Dagorlad, but he did not acept the command of Gil-Galad. Thus he and 2/3 of his warrior were killed in an attack lunched to early. Thranduil who had taken part in the battle survived and after the war led the remants of the people bake to mirkwood. When in the third age Dol Guldur becam a thread he removed his realm further north. To the place we know from The Hobbit.
Since Thranduil's palace was in very many aspects similar to Menegroth we can assume that he was already born in Doriath and had seen the fortress of Thingol with his own eyes.

I hope that helps clearing the things a bit.
Respectfully
Findegil

[Lalwendë]

It always struck me that the Hobbits of The Shire and Men of Bree actually stand out as having surnames, instead of being generally referred to as 'son of ....'. I may be mistaken but it doesn't seem that any of the other societies in Middle Earth use surnames. The only odd cases I can think of are names such as 'Gandalf Stormcrow' - these are nicknames, but nicknames are one of the common roots of surnames.

Perhaps it ought to be on a new thread, but I often wonder if this makes The Shire the most 'advanced' of the various societies. Surnames generally come into use when trade and government have grown so much that it would be impossible to govern without being able to distinguish individuals.

Anyway, I generally think that the use of names is a cultural matter in middle Earth. The elves don't seem to use anything other than first names, which might indicate a smaller, more village-like society, wheareas men use 'son of...', which is more feudal.

[symestreem]

Well, the elves were more reclusive, and most of them knew each other, having had ample time to meet before. So they didn't really need surnames. It is interesting that the elves, who along with men placed the most emphasis on descendants and ancestry, did NOT use a patronymic (?) or, "son of", while men DID. I think the hobbits having surnames may have been a device of Tolkien's introduced when he was writing 'The Hobbit', to be familiar to children/give the story an English feel. But the elves could most definitely NOT feel English, and the men had to feel... pre-English (hence the patronymics). So you could say that the hobbits correspond to the latest time frame of our world, but the circumstances in Middle-earth are different, and this does not necessarily indicate advancement. Remember, the later the age, the greater the technology, and Tolkien seemed to dislike industrialization (yes,t hat's stretching it a bit). Also, it may be because there were so many hobbits, and they had similar first names, so calling a hobbit (first name) son/daughter of (first name) would have been confusing.

[Potatothan]

Look! That helped I never knew the elves of Mirkwood rebelled. Just one more thing about the mirkwood elves.(sorry) Why didn't they have a city? Is it because they just have a castle? All the other societies have cities. Calas Galadhon, Hobbiton, Minas Tirith, Dale. Khazad-Dum (altough I don't really know if this is a city). Why was this?

~Potatothan

[Lhunardawen]

Originally posted by symestreem
Also, it may be because there were so many hobbits, and they had similar first names, so calling a hobbit (first name) son/daughter of (first name) would have been confusing

So was it for a few of the Elves. Think about Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell. Although there is a possibility that they are one and the same...

[Legolas]

They are definitely the same.

[Thorongil]

Originally Posted by Potatothan

Look! That helped I never knew the elves of Mirkwood rebelled. Just one more thing about the mirkwood elves.(sorry) Why didn't they have a city? Is it because they just have a castle? All the other societies have cities. Calas Galadhon, Hobbiton, Minas Tirith, Dale. Khazad-Dum (altough I don't really know if this is a city). Why was this?

Well, even if there were a city in Mirkwood, I would still live in the fortress. Would you live in an open city when lots of spiders and other evil were creeping around right outside? Almost all of Mirkwood was under the evil influence of Dol Guldur, exept for the small part Thranduil's people held. A fortress was probably the safest place to be in.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Thorongil

Well, even if there were a city in Mirkwood, I would still live in the fortress. Would you live in an open city when lots of spiders and other evil were creeping around right outside? Almost all of Mirkwood was under the evil influence of Dol Guldur, exept for the small part Thranduil's people held. A fortress was probably the safest place to be in.

There probably were some hermituous elves who preferred to live outside the walls, and in the region of the forest held by Thranduil's people, they could have done it safely.

[Potatothan]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

So was it for a few of the Elves. Think about Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell. Although there is a possibility that they are one and the same...

Well, you just solved the matter there. Even if they were different, you name one Glorfindel of Rivendell and the other of Gondolin. So that way you know the difference. So they just say Legolas of the woodland realm in case there is another legolas. (doubt it, but still)

So there was no realy city in Mirkwood, just a mighty fortress. Or was it something like Doriath?

~Potatothan

[symestreem]

Well, as Findegil said, the halls of Thranduil were similar to those of Menegroth.

[Olorin_TLA]

Not only do they never name Legolas as son of Thranduil, but they constantly neglect to mention he's a prince! I suppose Legolas simply doesn't feel that makes him any "better" than anyone else, as he doens't seem to have pride, and so never mentions it. But it's still wierd.


But names like Glorifndel wouldn't be reused by the Elves, Tolkien said (a small part of the reason he decided they were the same person) - simpler names might have, he said, or ones less "unique" by the deeds done by someone so named. So I guess the mystery reamins.

As for Mirkwood...the Elven King's Halls would have been like an undergorund city. But I think many Elves lived in the woods to suit their less-housebound society.

[Guinevere]

Not only do they never name Legolas as son of Thranduil, but they constantly neglect to mention he's a prince! I suppose Legolas simply doesn't feel that makes him any "better" than anyone else, as he doesn't seem to have pride, and so never mentions it. But it's still weird.

That's something which also struck me. In my eyes it makes Legolas very sympathetic ! He's the son of a king, yet he's not proud or haughty at all. (Aragorn is much more fond of showing off his ancestry! ) Neither does he act like he's something better than the rest of the fellowship because he's an elf.

I think the hobbits having surnames may have been a device of Tolkien's introduced when he was writing 'The Hobbit', to be familiar to children/give the story an English feel

I think you are right in this, Symestream! The Hobbits are a (deliberate)Anachronism in Middle-earth. With them, the reader can identify. They are the bridge to the archaic world of ME. Bilbo and his home and his way of living are described much more like an upper Middle-class Englishman from around 1900.

[Lhundulinwen]

I think the main purpose of Aragorn to even be in the story (other than to protect Frodo, same as everyone else in the fellowship) was to reclaim his family's throne in Gondor. So his being the son of Arathorn had a pretty big impact. Frodo's introduction, Frodo son of Drogo, I think was probably just his habit. He was more of an upper class hobbit, and when he sent a letter or did anything more 'formal' in the Shire, I bet he signed it Frodo son of Drogo. Sam, when he used the more formal greeting, I think it was him trying to prove (maybe to himself) that he was as good as all the other hobbits, even if he was 'just a gardener'. Legolas really didn't introduce himself all that much, and I agree that maybe he was downplaying the fact that he was an elf. Plus, he may have been trying to make a name for himself without his famous father. Just my oppinion though .