Significance of the green stone?

[Firefoot]

In the Chapter "Many Meetings" in FotR, Bilbo writes the song/poem about Eärendil, and afterwards, Bilbo says to Frodo:

In fact it was all mine. Except that Aragorn insisted on my putting in a green stone. He seemed to think it important. I don’t know why.

Is there some special significance to the green stone? I don’t think Tolkien would draw attention to it if there wasn’t.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I think the green stone was the Elessar, or Elfstone, that was given to Aragorn by Arwen via Galadriel as a token of hope. (It's in the "Farewell to Lorien" chapter.) He later took his name as king from it. Galadriel told him that the name Elessar was fortold for him, but I don't know who by. I'm also not sure why Aragorn thought it important to include in a song about Earendil. As far as I know, Earendil didn't own the elfstone.

Hope that helps!
-Lily

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But when Eärendil began his great voyages upon the Sea he wore the Elessar upon his breast...

(UT II 4)

The green stone was the Elessar, which was probably useless during the voyage. so Bilbo could have omitted that detail without affecting the song much.

But Aragorn knew the importance of the stone. It is one of the links between the age that was and now.

[Firefoot]

Okay. I had forgotten about that... I wondered if it was the Elessar but I couldn't figure out how that would fit. Now that you posted that quote I remember how that worked. It all makes sense now.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this...'

Why had Sauron assumed that Aragorn's emerald stone is of Elven make? Was he even there when Earendil began his voyage? Granted that Sauron had been hanging around the Elves during the making of the Three Rings, did he really noticed the stone?

Above all, why should it end up in Middle Earth again? I can't remember clearly where the stone came from, but I don't suppose the stone could just float back to Middle Earth again. Why should Sauron even try to make a connection between the green stone and the heir of Isildur?

I suppose Feanor or Celebrimbor made it, and then just left it lying around until Galadriel picked it up? Its role seemed extraordinarily small throughout the epic, from its discovery at the Last bridge to the crowning of Aragorn... Just goes to show that some men like jewels too.

[The Saucepan Man]

I do not have my copy of UT to hand, but isn't there some suggestion that the Elessar borne by Earendil is a different jewel from the Elessar given by Galadriel to Aragorn, though they share the same name?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Ah yes! I've laid my fat fingers on the UT!

The first Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor's friend, Enerdhil, and was brought across the sea. Celebrimbor (I LOVE this guy, he seemed to make everything) made the other one for Galadriel because she was his old flame.

'Where now is the Stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.'
'They have passed over the Sea,' said Galadriel, 'with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?'
'That is its fate, I deem,' said Celebrimbor. 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.' But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned.

What a gentleman! Apparently the later Elessar granted instant fertilization of the land you live:

Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought no more), and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar

Okay, that part solved, I still wonder why should Sauron know of this extraordinary stone, and link it to Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor.

[Finwe]

I don't think you're giving Sauron the credit that he deserves. The guy was bloody brilliant. He knew enough about the Elves, their private squabbles, and their motivations to ingratiate himself with the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. According to some sources, Celebrimbor (or Enerdhil) made the Elessar in Gondolin, and gave it to Idril to heal the hurts of the world. She then passed it on to Earendil, who bore it when he sailed West. Then, in the Second Age, Celebrimbor made another one to proclaim his love for Galadriel. That is the one that she passed to Arwen, and which passed to Aragorn. If Celebrimbor had indeed made an Elessar, then it makes sense that he would have told Annatar about it, since the two were "comrades-in-arms" so to speak.

By the time that the War of the Ring was underway, it was revealed that Aragorn was the Heir of Isildur. His spies would have brought him the news that the people of Gondor were calling him Elessar. Sauron would have naturally put two and two together, and realized that he could use Aragorn's desire to rightfully become King to his advantage, and try to demean him.

[Lostgaeriel]

There may be some useful info and/or discussion in these existing threads:

What was the power the ELESSAR had?

Aragorn's Elfstone

Elendilmir

[Firefoot]

Everyone is forgetting the other theory! In which the original Elessar was, by the grace of the Valar, able to return to Middle-earth. Gandalf may have brought it when he came and given it to Galadriel.

[Lostgaeriel]

Finwe suggested:

By the time that the War of the Ring was underway, it was revealed that Aragorn was the Heir of Isildur. His spies would have brought him the news that the people of Gondor were calling him Elessar.

But Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron using the Palantir of Orthanc, remember? That was on March 6 at Dunharrow, well before he arrived in Minas Tirith to do the "hands of the healer" thing. And I believe he was wearing the Elessar - Galadriel game him "a great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings". Sauron didn't have to wait to get the news from his spies.

But regarding Tolkien's choice of a green stone to be the identitifier of the King, I would still like to know if anyone has found any other examples in Medieval literature of green stones with healing powers. As per my post in the "Aragorn's Elfstone" thread.

I've recently read Chrétien de Troyes Perceval and Wolfram Von Eschenbach's Parzival (translations, of course) and was amazed to find that in Wolfram's version, the Grail (graal - a serving platter) was made of a single green stone or gem - presumably emerald. Not only that, but it has healing powers.

Is this a recurring motif in literature or just a coincidence?

[Finwe]

Since it is a recurring theme in literature, Tolkien could have gotten the idea of the Elessar from these Grail romances. Green is oft associated with healing powers, since it is the color that is closest to Nature and the Earth. The Grail was said to have magical healing powers, so authors would associate all healing allegories with it. That is why the Grail has been associated with the Cup of the Last Supper, green stone(s), and women (some say that the Grail is actually the womb of Mary Magdalen), all of whom are associated with healing.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Well, I know that Aragorn showed himself and the Anduril to Sauron... did he show the green stone too? Actually I would feel that Sauron is too engrossed with knowing that the Narsil is reforged to notice the Elessar (if he really know what the green stone is called, considering the Elessar belonged to Galadriel at first, and she is not too hot on Sauron).

One actually wonder whether the powers of the Elessar would be permanent, or would it just fade like the powers of the Three Rings? Granted that the Elessar is made by Celebrimbor or Enerdhil, it would be the last Elven twinklet to be left behind after the departure of the Elves. The Three Rings faded because they were bound by Sauron's One Ring, but surely the green stone would not fade?

[Finwe]

I don't think it would have faded. Another possibility that popped up into my mind is, since Aragorn, in essence, became the Elessar, would he have needed to keep it with him? He could have passed it on to Eldarion or someone, since he was now the King, with the healing hands of one.

[Voralphion]

'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this...'

Could this quote be refering to the elendilmir not the elessar. Aragorn wore the elendilmir at the battle of Pellannor Fields and it was one of the things that helped people know that the king had returned. The elvish glass could be this, as the second elendilmir, the one worn by Aragorn at the battle, was in fact made by the elves of Rivendell. The elessar was small and wouldn't have been noticed by Sauron, or didn't actually represent his kingship through his descent from Elendil, which the elendilmir did.

[Lostgaeriel]

'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this...'

Now that Voralphion has drawn attention to this quote, I find it a little confusing.

I don't know if Sauron's mouthpiece was referring to the Elendilmir or to the Elessar (or to something else?). How does one interpret 'elvish glass'? Elessar = Elf-stone = green beryl = emerald but the Elendilmir was a white jewel = diamond?

I assume Aragorn was wearing the Elessar eagle brooch when he looked into the palantir and at the Black Gates. When Galadriel gave it to him, he pinned it upon his breast. And I doubt he took it off any time after that; it was a token of hope.

The Elendilmir would be the object to 'make a king' since it was the 'crown' of the North Kingdom, Arnor. But at the Black Gates, Aragorn would not yet be in possession of either the Elendilmir or the tall winged crown, so how could the Mouth of Sauron be referring to the Elendilmir?

[Voralphion]

Aragorn was in possession of the elendilmir at the time of the battle at the black gate. He was wearing it when he got off the black ships at the battle of Pellanor Fields. It says that he was wearing a jewel on a silver fillet on his brow. This of course wasn't the original elendilmir, that was lost with Isildur and found by Sauraman, and was found when Aragorn and Gimli went through Isenguard. The elendilmir that Aragorn was wearing at the battle was the second elendilmir made by the elves of Rivendell for Valandil after Isildur's death.

[Findegil]

It seems possible for me that the mouth of Sauron refered to nither to the Elessar not to the Elendilmir but to the possesion and us of the palantir. Aragorn had wrestled the Orthanc stone from Saurons controll. That he could do that was a remarkable sign for his real identity, espcially for Sauron. So what he was trying to do was to play down that defeat Aragorn had given him.

In addition the discription as "elfish glas" does fit the palantir much better than either Elendilmir or Elessar which both were of elfish production as well but were never call glas.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Lostgaeriel]

Voralphion - Thanks! I had forgotten that passage in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

But before all went Aragorn with the Flame of the West, Andúril like a new fire kindled, Narsil re-forged as deadly as of old; and upon his brow was the Star of Elendil.

But where did Aragorn get the Elendilmir? Has he been carrying it all along or did Elrond send it along with the standard of Arwen and his 'Paths of the Dead' reminder? And is Aragorn really entitled to wear it before Sauron is defeated and the kingdom of Arnor is restored?

So the Elendilmir must be the piece of Elvish glass to which the Mouth of Sauron is referring. Aragorn must have worn it when he looked into the palantír to add to the intimidation/shock factor and he would continue to wear it into battle - at Pelennor and at the Black Gates.

Sorry, Firefoot - we're digressing from the topic - the significance of the green stone.

[Lostgaeriel]

Oh, Ilúvatar!

Did Galadriel give Aragorn the Elendilmir? A long time before...

‘It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.
‘He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by; yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. …

- Appendix A, (v), HERE FOLLOWS A PART OF THE TALE OF ARAGORN AND ARWEN

Or was that a different gem and/or only a loaner?

But back to the significance of the green stone...and the parallel to the graal made of emerald. (The 'holy grail' as a chalice in Arthurian tales is a fairly recent aberration.) Yes, green is a colour that can symbolize growth, rebirth and healing. And with the juxtaposition of the two names, Elessar and Envinyatar, the colour green is combined with its symbolic meaning and we see Aragorn as a vessel of healing powers - the graal.

His healing powers extend beyond curing physical and psychological injuries; Aragorn has the skills to heal, renew and recreate the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor in a reign of peace and true security. Justice, pity, and mercy are the qualities shown by him in re-deploying the fearful soldiers on the way to the Black Gates, in making peace with the peoples of Harad, in setting free the slaves of Mordor, in his sentencing of Beregond, in giving the Forest of Drúadan to Ghân-buri-ghân and his people, etc.

And Aragorn hearing him, turned and said: 'Verily, for in the high tongue of old I am Elessar, the Elfstone, and Envinyatar, the Renewer': and he lifted from his breast the green stone that lay there.

- The Houses of Healing

How's that for pony dung?

[Finwe]

I don't think that the Mouth of Sauron was referring to the Elendilmir when he said "...elvish glass..." The Elendilmir is not so much Elvish is it is of the Dunedain. The Elessar would be considered a "piece of elvish glass," much more so than the Elendilmir, which is distinctly Mannish.

Besides, the Mouth distinctly said that it takes more than a piece of elvish glass to make a king. Just what is this king-making? Aragorn would most likely have challenged Sauron through the palantir while introducing himself as Elessar, Heir of Isildur, etc. Sauron would have realized that Aragorn must have received the Elessar through Galadriel, and used that to assume the name of Elessar.

And yes, Aragorn used the name before the people of Gondor officially gave him the name. He used it when he introduced himself to Eomer in Rohan.