Another Balrog thread... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Feanaro · 08-02-2002, 07:57 PM

Fear not, I do not intend to discuss whether or not Balrog's have or have not wings. This topic deals with the relationship of Balrogs and the dwarven rings.

As I posted a link to the "Of the Rings of Power" thread, I started thinking. One quote in that thread caught my particular attention:

Quote:

"the Dwarves:their inherent greed.These Rings inflamed their desire of wealth,and they used them only to gain it."

The dwarven rings had more of Sauron's taint than some of the other's, such as the three for example. It was theorized in the aforementioned thread that the dwarven rings were made more powerful to ensnare the hearty nature of the dwarves. They were not transformed into wraiths, per se, but perhaps a more dire consequence was inflicted upon them.

I found out from Sharku that the Balrog in Moria (Durin's Bane) was awakened during the mid Third Age, when the dwarven lords were in possession of their rings, or had started to lose them. As the quote I provided states, the natural greed of the dwarves was inflamed by the rings, adding to their already ravenous goldlust. It is also said that the balrog was awakened due to the dwarves of Moria "delving too deep," obviously in the acquisition of more wealth.

My question therefore is this, is there any chance that the rings given to the dwarves had something to do with the reawakening of the Balrog? Not that Sauron had intended this from the start, but that perhaps the corrupt nature of the rings sought out the dark spirit of the Balrog, maybe as the Ruling Ring sought out Sauron? I'm not certain whether there is a definate answer to this question, but if anyone wishes to add their opinion, please do so, and sate my curiosity.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

Manwe Sulimo · 08-02-2002, 08:22 PM

I doubt it. While the Seven certainly did affect the Dwarves, they would've delved "too deep" for mithril anyway.

Although the Seven did have a way of seeking out the demons of Morgoth (if I remember correctly, four were destroyed by Dragon-fire and three were taken by Sauron).

The Balrog-Durin's Bane · 08-02-2002, 08:24 PM

Well I dont have a definate answer for this, but it definitley is an interesting theory....The Rings do have a will of their own, but I dont know why the ring would have chosen to go towards the balrog. Maybe the rings are "programmed" so to speak to go towards dark things, so they may end up on Sauron's hand once again. And I always dwarves werent ensared, as the men were because they were too stubborn and set in their ways, to go under control.

I know this is off topic, but if sauron did end up getting ALL the rings, thats 20 of em. Would he put them all on his fingers Mr. T style, or would he have toe rings, haha, just a thought....

the phantom · 08-02-2002, 10:04 PM

Actually, I've always wondered if the Balrog somehow lured the dwarves down to him so he could be released. In light of your ring theory, it kinda makes sense. Even if someone shoots this down, it's still an interesting thought.
lol about the Mister T idea!
Sauron: "Give me my ring, hobbit fool!!"

Galorme · 08-03-2002, 05:29 AM

Quote:

One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.

He was going to make a big bada superring of course.

Nevfeniel · 08-03-2002, 07:22 AM

Interesting theory, Feanaro. I definitely think it might be possible.

Elrian · 08-03-2002, 11:15 AM

A very good theory, I think. When the ring was in Moria it could have aroused the Balrog, then the ring goes to Erebor and very well could have aroused Smaug to their location.

The Silver-shod Muse · 08-05-2002, 04:10 PM

It's a feasible theory, and one that I pretty much agree with.

If there were powers of good that moved the members of the Fellowship to certain decisions, seemingly according to intuition, then there were surely foils of these that moved the vulnerable to misdeeds, or to actions that would benefit the "evil side".

Lord Gothmog · 08-07-2002, 04:44 PM

An interesting theory. However, I must point out that the Rings were not made for the Dwarves nor for the ensnaring of the Dwarves. They were in fact made by the Elves of Eregion for the Elves of Eregion. All of the rings made under the gaze of Sauron were tainted, only the three most powerful made by Celebrimbor alone and without the knowledge of Sauron were un-tainted. Sauron, when he found that they could not control the Elves demanded the rings and when they were not given up he took by force all that he could find. He then gave Seven to the Dwarves and Nine to Men.

If the Seven that he gave to the Dwarves were more powerful than those he gave to Men, then this would be due to their being made after the ones given to Men and not because they had been made stronger to have more effect on Dwarves.

While it is possible that the Ring of Khazad-dum did have some influence on the awakening of the Balrog, you must remember that the reason the Rings of Power were made in the first place was the domination of the Elves and their use in Men and Dwarves was simply Sauron not wishing to completely waste the effort of getting the Elves to make them and his making of the One Ring.

Orofacion of the Vanyar · 08-07-2002, 07:33 PM

You took the words right out of my mouth Lord Gothmong.

But in the case of the Balrog, I don't think the rings were attracted to it at all. It's known the dwarves were resistant to Sauron's attempts at controlling them, and the entire power of the ring was reduced to only inflaming the greedy nature. This tells me the dwarves had slightly more control over their rings compared to men. Therefore indirectly, Sauron released the Balrog.

It is possible however that Sauron knew what the effects the rings would be on the dwarves and then used this to increase the odds of them releasing the Balrog. It's obvious that Sauron had no control over the Balrog, if he did he would have used it at that time. So because Sauron couldn't use it for himself, why not get a people to release it so it could cause havok amongst the peoples of Middle Earth? Makes sense to me.

Legolas · 08-07-2002, 11:33 PM

Check out my uh.. wots a maiar ???/ thread for more information.

It's located here!

Feanaro · 08-08-2002, 07:00 AM

Thanks to everyone who already posted an intelligent thought, I appreciate the input. Keep it coming!

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

Feanaro · 08-23-2002, 10:55 PM

Seeing as how the recent purging of The Books has done a great deal to entice the more serious posters back into the forum, I decided to bump this topic back up and see if anyone else had any thoughts to add.

08-02-2002, 08:22 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	I doubt it. While the Seven certainly did affect the Dwarves, they would've delved "too deep" for mithril anyway. Although the Seven did have a way of seeking out the demons of Morgoth (if I remember correctly, four were destroyed by Dragon-fire and three were taken by Sauron). __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

08-02-2002, 08:24 PM	#3
The Balrog-Durin's Bane Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Waukesha, WI Posts: 18	Well I dont have a definate answer for this, but it definitley is an interesting theory....The Rings do have a will of their own, but I dont know why the ring would have chosen to go towards the balrog. Maybe the rings are "programmed" so to speak to go towards dark things, so they may end up on Sauron's hand once again. And I always dwarves werent ensared, as the men were because they were too stubborn and set in their ways, to go under control. I know this is off topic, but if sauron did end up getting ALL the rings, thats 20 of em. Would he put them all on his fingers Mr. T style, or would he have toe rings, haha, just a thought.... __________________ "Baruk Khazad! Khazad aimenu!"-Battle Cry of the Dwarves meaning "Axes of the Dwarves! the dwarves are upon you!" "...let Gimli son of Gloin warn you against foolish words, You speak evil of that which is far beyond the reach of your thought, and only little wit can excuse you."

08-02-2002, 10:04 PM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Actually, I've always wondered if the Balrog somehow lured the dwarves down to him so he could be released. In light of your ring theory, it kinda makes sense. Even if someone shoots this down, it's still an interesting thought. lol about the Mister T idea! Sauron: "Give me my ring, hobbit fool!!" __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

08-03-2002, 07:22 AM	#6
Nevfeniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mithlond Posts: 783	Interesting theory, Feanaro. I definitely think it might be possible. __________________ Consider the purr a variety of audible tranquilizer. [. . .] For a few of us, there is one more purr, a secret purr. When we combine our secret purrs, we produce the Purr of Power. And that is simply the amplified amity we feel as furred and purred beings.

08-03-2002, 11:15 AM	#7
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	A very good theory, I think. When the ring was in Moria it could have aroused the Balrog, then the ring goes to Erebor and very well could have aroused Smaug to their location. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

08-05-2002, 04:10 PM	#8
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	It's a feasible theory, and one that I pretty much agree with. If there were powers of good that moved the members of the Fellowship to certain decisions, seemingly according to intuition, then there were surely foils of these that moved the vulnerable to misdeeds, or to actions that would benefit the "evil side". __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

08-07-2002, 04:44 PM	#9
Lord Gothmog Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Location: South Wales Posts: 49	An interesting theory. However, I must point out that the Rings were not made for the Dwarves nor for the ensnaring of the Dwarves. They were in fact made by the Elves of Eregion for the Elves of Eregion. All of the rings made under the gaze of Sauron were tainted, only the three most powerful made by Celebrimbor alone and without the knowledge of Sauron were un-tainted. Sauron, when he found that they could not control the Elves demanded the rings and when they were not given up he took by force all that he could find. He then gave Seven to the Dwarves and Nine to Men. If the Seven that he gave to the Dwarves were more powerful than those he gave to Men, then this would be due to their being made after the ones given to Men and not because they had been made stronger to have more effect on Dwarves. While it is possible that the Ring of Khazad-dum did have some influence on the awakening of the Balrog, you must remember that the reason the Rings of Power were made in the first place was the domination of the Elves and their use in Men and Dwarves was simply Sauron not wishing to completely waste the effort of getting the Elves to make them and his making of the One Ring. __________________ If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled. Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs!

08-07-2002, 07:33 PM	#10
Orofacion of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Clayton, NC Posts: 102	You took the words right out of my mouth Lord Gothmong. But in the case of the Balrog, I don't think the rings were attracted to it at all. It's known the dwarves were resistant to Sauron's attempts at controlling them, and the entire power of the ring was reduced to only inflaming the greedy nature. This tells me the dwarves had slightly more control over their rings compared to men. Therefore indirectly, Sauron released the Balrog. It is possible however that Sauron knew what the effects the rings would be on the dwarves and then used this to increase the odds of them releasing the Balrog. It's obvious that Sauron had no control over the Balrog, if he did he would have used it at that time. So because Sauron couldn't use it for himself, why not get a people to release it so it could cause havok amongst the peoples of Middle Earth? Makes sense to me.

08-07-2002, 11:33 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Check out my uh.. wots a maiar ???/ thread for more information. It's located here! __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-08-2002, 07:00 AM	#12
Feanaro Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 55	Thanks to everyone who already posted an intelligent thought, I appreciate the input. Keep it coming! [ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ] __________________ 'See half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.' -Feanor, threatening Fingolfin with his sword. ~Moderator of the Mordor RPG.~

08-23-2002, 10:55 PM	#13
Feanaro Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 55	Seeing as how the recent purging of The Books has done a great deal to entice the more serious posters back into the forum, I decided to bump this topic back up and see if anyone else had any thoughts to add. __________________ 'See half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.' -Feanor, threatening Fingolfin with his sword. ~Moderator of the Mordor RPG.~