Numenore vs Valinor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

11-26-2003, 09:01 PM

If the Mair and valar did not interfere, could the elves alone defeat the Numenorean invasion of Valinor?

Lord of Angmar · 11-26-2003, 09:35 PM

In such an unlikely event as the Valar not defending their land and not retaliating for the deliberate violation of their law, I think that the Numenoreans would have prevailed. Military, they were extremely advanced, and no slender Telerin ships would have overcome the naval strength of Ar-Pharazon's fleets. Furthermore, the Elves would be caught at unawares, and would most likely find themselves completely unprepared militarily.

lore_master · 11-26-2003, 09:44 PM

i agree Angmar, the Elves alone would probably stand almost no chance in defeating the Numenoreans and there great fleet of very well trained, professional armies of Numenor.

The elves would have tried, no doubt, but they probably would be out militarized by the men. After all it was Feanor and the Noldor who were the most warlike and almost all of them were in middle-earth.

Legolas · 11-27-2003, 01:41 AM

The elves of Aman marched against Morgoth's armies in the War of Wrath. They were aided by Maiar, but I imagine Morgoth's army was much more threatening than Numenor's.

[ 2:42 AM November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Lord of Angmar · 11-27-2003, 08:13 AM

Very true, Legolas, but that was a fully assembled host complete with military strategy and the means of carrying out that strategy, aided by more powerful beings. The Elves that the Numenoreans would have come upon would have been scattered and unprepared for the might of the Numenorean fleets. You can never count out the power of the Elves, I suppose, but in this case, had the Valar taken the strange option of doing nothing to defend their land, I think that power would have been overcome.

Mahal · 11-27-2003, 10:14 AM

Yes I agree they were scatterd and of no danger aware(it think).However I think the elves were naturally better fighters then all men(well exept for Hurin and Turin).So it would not have been a easy fight for the numenoreans.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-27-2003, 10:34 AM

I think the fight would be quite even, though I'm not sure of the number of Vanyar and Noldor in Valinor. The (probable) low morale of the Numenoreans might also be a factor in favour of the Elves.

lore_master · 11-27-2003, 04:15 PM

well the moral of the Numenoreans probably wasnt to horibbly low, after all they believed that they would be getting immortal life.

but you might be right, im not sure how many elves were really in Valinor, but who knows

Arvedui24 · 11-28-2003, 03:04 AM

I dont think that the Elves would have been caught totally unawares, i mean it was said, sorry i dont have exact quotations but there was a great gathering storm, it was thought that the eagles of Manwe were watching the fleet and Amandil if he ever reached the Undying Lands might have reported the growing evil. I think the Elves would have been prepared for attack but would only attack if it came to the last resort.

FingolfintheBold · 11-28-2003, 10:41 AM

I think you guys need to give the elves a little more credit. Its not like valinor was this little strip of land that Numenor could conquer in a couple battles. There were thousands, who knows how many elves living there, all with the light of Elvendom shining in their eyes. Numenor might have taken the harbours or something, but once word got to Tirion of the advancing force and the King of Elves whipped out his warriors it would be a heck of a fight. And remember, the numenorians would have to lay siege to countless cities, all constructed by skillful elves in their prime. And what of the elves that had went to mandos? If they were alive and well in valinor somewhere ( i know that is debateable) it is very unlikely that Numenor could have defeated them.

Failivrin · 11-28-2003, 03:23 PM

i very much doubt that the Numenoreans could have conquered the Elves of Valinor. as FingolfintheBold said, they have the light of Elvendom shining in their eeyes, furthermore they have not been wearied by battle in Aman. Also, we are forgetting the far sight of the Elves, they would most likely have seen the fleet coming and been able to arm adequately atleast half of their force before the numenoreans arrived which would have held them back while the rest of the population was armed. finally, we are forgetting that a large number of the Noldor returned to Valinor after the defeat of Morgoth and these are supposedly the race most hungry for war.

11-26-2003, 09:01 PM	#1
Kent Guest Posts: n/a	Numenore vs Valinor If the Mair and valar did not interfere, could the elves alone defeat the Numenorean invasion of Valinor?

11-26-2003, 09:35 PM	#2
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	In such an unlikely event as the Valar not defending their land and not retaliating for the deliberate violation of their law, I think that the Numenoreans would have prevailed. Military, they were extremely advanced, and no slender Telerin ships would have overcome the naval strength of Ar-Pharazon's fleets. Furthermore, the Elves would be caught at unawares, and would most likely find themselves completely unprepared militarily. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

11-26-2003, 09:44 PM	#3
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	i agree Angmar, the Elves alone would probably stand almost no chance in defeating the Numenoreans and there great fleet of very well trained, professional armies of Numenor. The elves would have tried, no doubt, but they probably would be out militarized by the men. After all it was Feanor and the Noldor who were the most warlike and almost all of them were in middle-earth. __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

11-27-2003, 01:41 AM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The elves of Aman marched against Morgoth's armies in the War of Wrath. They were aided by Maiar, but I imagine Morgoth's army was much more threatening than Numenor's. [ 2:42 AM November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-27-2003, 08:13 AM	#5
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Very true, Legolas, but that was a fully assembled host complete with military strategy and the means of carrying out that strategy, aided by more powerful beings. The Elves that the Numenoreans would have come upon would have been scattered and unprepared for the might of the Numenorean fleets. You can never count out the power of the Elves, I suppose, but in this case, had the Valar taken the strange option of doing nothing to defend their land, I think that power would have been overcome. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

11-27-2003, 10:14 AM	#6
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	Yes I agree they were scatterd and of no danger aware(it think).However I think the elves were naturally better fighters then all men(well exept for Hurin and Turin).So it would not have been a easy fight for the numenoreans. __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

11-27-2003, 10:34 AM	#7
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I think the fight would be quite even, though I'm not sure of the number of Vanyar and Noldor in Valinor. The (probable) low morale of the Numenoreans might also be a factor in favour of the Elves. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-27-2003, 04:15 PM	#8
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	well the moral of the Numenoreans probably wasnt to horibbly low, after all they believed that they would be getting immortal life. but you might be right, im not sure how many elves were really in Valinor, but who knows __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

11-28-2003, 03:04 AM	#9
Arvedui24 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 26	I dont think that the Elves would have been caught totally unawares, i mean it was said, sorry i dont have exact quotations but there was a great gathering storm, it was thought that the eagles of Manwe were watching the fleet and Amandil if he ever reached the Undying Lands might have reported the growing evil. I think the Elves would have been prepared for attack but would only attack if it came to the last resort.

11-28-2003, 10:41 AM	#10
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	I think you guys need to give the elves a little more credit. Its not like valinor was this little strip of land that Numenor could conquer in a couple battles. There were thousands, who knows how many elves living there, all with the light of Elvendom shining in their eyes. Numenor might have taken the harbours or something, but once word got to Tirion of the advancing force and the King of Elves whipped out his warriors it would be a heck of a fight. And remember, the numenorians would have to lay siege to countless cities, all constructed by skillful elves in their prime. And what of the elves that had went to mandos? If they were alive and well in valinor somewhere ( i know that is debateable) it is very unlikely that Numenor could have defeated them. __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

11-28-2003, 03:23 PM	#11
Failivrin Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: England Posts: 201	i very much doubt that the Numenoreans could have conquered the Elves of Valinor. as FingolfintheBold said, they have the light of Elvendom shining in their eeyes, furthermore they have not been wearied by battle in Aman. Also, we are forgetting the far sight of the Elves, they would most likely have seen the fleet coming and been able to arm adequately atleast half of their force before the numenoreans arrived which would have held them back while the rest of the population was armed. finally, we are forgetting that a large number of the Noldor returned to Valinor after the defeat of Morgoth and these are supposedly the race most hungry for war. __________________ no one in particular