A great fall...

[Galorme]

Erm this is sort of not a question, just something i would like to get people's opinion on.

Consider Saruman, or Curumo, or the beeing that later held these names. He was present at the making of the world, he sang together with Eru, the Allfather. He helped work Arda into a habbitable world with the Valar, he dwelt in Valinor in bliss, saw the rise and the fall of the Two Trees (no tower/tree analogies please). He was chosen from unnumbered Maia to be one of the Istari. He was considered the head of the White Council, and the greatest of the Istari.

Now compare this to the end of LoTR. He has no power, no strength, and resorts to this:

"You have grown, Halfling. Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you!"

Insulting a hobbit for sparing his life. He is a fallen Angel in totally. He falls from great goodness, to decidence and jelousy, to Evil Glory, to dark defiance, and finally to a beggar wondering the streets in search of nothing but death.

[kingangmar]

wow you really know alot about saruman ... where did you find ou that info cuase i hadnt herd it from the SIL. or the LOR. check out the comment i made on " evil Maiar" just like 5 minutes before you posted this comment

[Child of the 7th Age]

Galorme --

I agree with much of what you say about Saruman. Let me add just two things.

First, Saruman is the one being of evil in the LotR whom I can truly see in a tragic light. And he is also the one being in Tolkien's writings who deeply disturbs me because I see him, again and again, in our own world. And, frankly, that is a bit frightening.

Saruman had a subtle and charming voice which led so many into unwise paths. And I think that he could sometimes influence even those beings who, at the core of their hearts, were good and decent.

One example of this is how the Ents treated Saruman. How could this people who were known for their careful decisions, and lack of haste, so readily let Saruman go? I feel there is only one real answer. Saruman was able to use his voice in such a way that even this ancient and respected people gave in to his spell. If you care to examine the history of the twentieth century, you will see example after example of demagogic leaders who have apparently mastered this same skill. And they lead people on, decent ones as well as those already under the shadow, with disastrous results.

Secondly, the real question to me about Saruman is "Why??" Why did he go over to evil after so many ages spent in the service of good? What was the vital difference between Saruman and Gandalf, that made the former turn to evil and the latter become the agent of great goodness?

Several things are readily apparent. Saruman spent years studying the ways of evil and travelling to the east which Gandalf did not. Saruman seems to have been jealous of the regard shown to Gandalf from the beginning of their sojourn in Middle-earth.

But were there other things, things that go back to the land of Valinor? One thing that always struck me about Olorin (Gandalf) in the Silm is that he spent much time with Nienna who, above all else, teaches compassion, hope, and the endurance of the spirit. I almost think of this as a kind of "vaccination" for Gandalf, helping him to deal with the great sadness of Middle-earth, the realities of death and the shadow of evil. Saruman had no such training, and therefore his response to darkness was to adopt the way of manipulation rather than compassion.

Saruman's attitude towards "mechanization" is also a factor. It is as if he took the lessons and skills of Aule and then perverted them.

In any case, I wonder if others have any ideas on this: Why Saruman failed, while
Gandalf succeeded in following the path of light?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[obloquy]

In any case, I wonder if others have any ideas on this: Why Saruman failed, while
Gandalf succeeded in following the path of light?

You touched on it already. Olorin's success was a result of his character -- the character he had from the beginning. The Silmarillion says:

But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

Unfinished Tales provides this little bit of insight:

But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go...

Humility.

Olórin truly cared about the people he was sent to help. HoMe X - The Later Quenta Silmarillion Part 1 contains this interesting version of the above-quoted text:

In later days he dearly loved the Children of Eru, and took pity on their sorrows. Those who hearkened to him arose from despair; and in their hearts the desire to heal and to renew awoke, and thoughts of fair things that had not yet been but might yet be made for the enrichment of Arda. Nothing he made himself and nothing he possessed, but kindled the hearts of others, and in their delight he was glad.

Olórin was just awesome. He selflessly sought to enrich the lives of others.

You may not be familiar with these recent threads in which I examine certain aspects of Olórin's character: Powers of the Istari and Sauron the Eyeball.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Obloquy --

Thanks for the links. I'e been away several weeks. sharon