Orcs underrated? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maéglin · 10-09-2003, 10:49 PM

In the movies did any of you guys feel that the orcs are represented as too weak? I mean in the first movie they were like little monkeys running around with scimitars and the screeching sound they made didnt help their cause either. I know the orcs weren't the most disciplined folk around but they weren't described ast that bad in the book, as far as I understood it. It seems as if Peter Jackson approached the orcs as mere cannon fodder too much. Even the Hobbits had a good go at them with Sam taking out orcs with saucepans and the Hobbits killing them with small rocks? I know the Hobbits were good throwers but rocks?? PJ seems to have overdone the "hero killing masses of enemies and can only be defeated if they are outnumbered a hundred to one" just a tiny bit.

Elvish Archer · 10-10-2003, 12:09 AM

I agree with you but only in part. When I first read the books, orcs struck me as not exactly the brightest bulb in the pack. I also understand that there are different breeds of orcs, as evidenced by the differences you see between the Moria orc and the Uruks. I understood Moria type orcs to be a dime a dozen . Uruks now, they were something. These guys were tough and smart. In the movies, the standard orc is pretty stupid while the Uruks are basicly ugly, evil men. To sum up, in my humble opinion, PJ did a fair job of portraying the orcs I'd imagined.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-10-2003, 06:09 AM

I agree that the Orcs were represented as weak, although I do think that they look terrifying in the films. The scenes where Sam is taking them out with his pans and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are slaughtering them by the hundreds at Amon Hen are a bit ridiculous. But that's movies for you.

The Only Real Estel · 10-10-2003, 10:13 AM

I did think that Aragorn taking on all those Uruk-Hais (after he told Frodo to go) was not a good dramatization; mainly because a. It did cheapen the Uruks battle skillsb. It kind've elevated Aragorn to a near-invincible status, something I dont' think PJ intended to do. (I'd hope not at least)

Rose Cotton · 10-10-2003, 12:36 PM

I think that you guys are missing an important detail: The fact that the same thing happened in the books. The meager numbers of the fellowship went up against thousands of orcs in the books. Including the hobbits and their pint-sized knives. The only difference is in the movie we actually see it happening while in the book we were just told, they fought this battle and survived.I think just putting it in visable form makes it even more unbelievable.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-11-2003, 02:34 PM

The Fellowship went up against thousands of Orcs? Debatable.

Rose Cotton · 10-11-2003, 04:06 PM

Whether it was a thousand or not they were still largely outnumbered.

10-12-2003, 02:24 PM

Baromir for his faults was a great warrior, so is Aragorn.. great captains of man..Grandalf mention the likes of them are worth 1000 a piece.. them slewing the regular orcs and even Urak Hai is not a problem for meas for the hobbits.. they would surely be killed swiftly if they were not targeted for capture.. they just manage to get a few cheap shots across b4 they are captured..

Ancalagon_the_Black · 10-12-2003, 02:42 PM

*laughs for joy*Oh, yes! I loved that part where Merry and Pippin tackle the Uruk and stick it in the face... Can you imagine what that must have done to the poor Orc's skull?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-13-2003, 11:26 AM

In actual combat, the Fellowship went up against Orcs in Moria next to Balin's Tomb. They were outnumbered but probably only by 4 to 1 at the most. (I dont have the book with me so I cannot check). The Orcs were surprised at the ferocity of the defense and retreated for a while, allowing the Fellowship to escape.At Amon Hen Boromir managed to kill about twenty Orcs and Legolas and Gimli also killed a few. The survivors from the Orcs side, as well as even more Orcs from Mordor, were slaughtered with ease by Eomer's company, which wasn't all that large.There's no doubt in my mind that the movie scene at Amon Hen is over the top.

The Only Real Estel · 10-13-2003, 12:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> they would surely be killed swiftly if they were not targeted for capture.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That leaves the door open on how the hobbits survived in the movie's version of Moria then...

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-13-2003, 06:09 PM

I'm not so sure that the Orcs look too pathetic at Amon Hen. Yes, Aragorn (later joined by Legolas and Gimli) does face rather a large force, but they are far more concerned with finding Halflings than with fighting a Man, an Elf and a Dwarf. And so they withdraw down the hill, looking for Hobbits.Boromir too faces a sizeable group of Orcs, and he is attacked because he is attempting to protect two Halflings. However, giving him a valiant last stand against an overwhelmig Orcish force mirrors the book, since, when Aragorn and co find him in the book, he is surrounded by the bodies of the many Orcs that he has killed. But there is one scene, in Moria, in which the Orcs do seem particularly pathetic to me. While the Fellowship is scrambling to get to, and over, the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, they present veritable sitting targets to the Orcish archers, who are shooting from very good vantage positions. And yet they are wholly incapable of getting even one good shot in (in comparison to Legolas who is able to pick them off easily, notwithstanding that he is shooting into the darkness from a crumbling stairway).But then I suppose that this is the stuff that blockbusters are made of ...

Voralphion · 10-13-2003, 06:26 PM

The main problem I had with the orcs in the movies, was the scene of the ents storming Isenguard and Merry and Pippen killing orcs just by throwing rocks at them. I know hobbits as supposed to be very good at throwing things but to kill that many orcs just by throwing rocks is a little over the top.

Maéglin · 10-13-2003, 10:45 PM

Deedlit the actual quote is <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And there are names among us that are worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>However I do not take this quote as literally meaning the likes of Aragorn, Gandalf, or Imrahil as capable of winning against a thousand knights! By worth it probably means a combination of strength, valour, respect etc.And in Moria in the movie when literally those thousands of Orcs surrounded the Fellowship, that was certainly exaggerated. Although the depiction of Trolls was pretty good, admittedly, they were supposed to be big brutes.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-14-2003, 06:42 AM

Voralphion, you don't really want to get hit square on the head with a rock from approximately 19 feet up in the air.Anyway, we're not sure whether they all died or were just knocked down.[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]

10-09-2003, 10:49 PM	#1
Maéglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 99	Orcs underrated? In the movies did any of you guys feel that the orcs are represented as too weak? I mean in the first movie they were like little monkeys running around with scimitars and the screeching sound they made didnt help their cause either. I know the orcs weren't the most disciplined folk around but they weren't described ast that bad in the book, as far as I understood it. It seems as if Peter Jackson approached the orcs as mere cannon fodder too much. Even the Hobbits had a good go at them with Sam taking out orcs with saucepans and the Hobbits killing them with small rocks? I know the Hobbits were good throwers but rocks?? PJ seems to have overdone the "hero killing masses of enemies and can only be defeated if they are outnumbered a hundred to one" just a tiny bit.

10-10-2003, 12:09 AM	#2
Elvish Archer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Land of Insanity, State of Denial Posts: 36	I agree with you but only in part. When I first read the books, orcs struck me as not exactly the brightest bulb in the pack. I also understand that there are different breeds of orcs, as evidenced by the differences you see between the Moria orc and the Uruks. I understood Moria type orcs to be a dime a dozen . Uruks now, they were something. These guys were tough and smart. In the movies, the standard orc is pretty stupid while the Uruks are basicly ugly, evil men. <BR> To sum up, in my humble opinion, PJ did a fair job of portraying the orcs I'd imagined. __________________ Fan of LotR, before it was a fad. He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

10-10-2003, 06:09 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I agree that the Orcs were represented as weak, although I do think that they look terrifying in the films. The scenes where Sam is taking them out with his pans and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are slaughtering them by the hundreds at Amon Hen are a bit ridiculous. But that's movies for you. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-10-2003, 10:13 AM	#4
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	I did think that Aragorn taking on all those Uruk-Hais (after he told Frodo to go) was not a good dramatization; mainly because <P>a. It did cheapen the Uruks battle skills<P>b. It kind've elevated Aragorn to a near-invincible status, something I dont' think PJ intended to do. (I'd hope not at least)

10-10-2003, 12:36 PM	#5
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	I think that you guys are missing an important detail: The fact that the same thing happened in the books. The meager numbers of the fellowship went up against thousands of orcs in the books. Including the hobbits and their pint-sized knives. The only difference is in the movie we actually see it happening while in the book we were just told, they fought this battle and survived.<P>I think just putting it in visable form makes it even more unbelievable. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

10-11-2003, 02:34 PM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	The Fellowship went up against thousands of Orcs? Debatable. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-11-2003, 04:06 PM	#7
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Whether it was a thousand or not they were still largely outnumbered. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

10-12-2003, 02:24 PM	#8
deedlit Guest Posts: n/a	Baromir for his faults was a great warrior, so is Aragorn.. great captains of man..<P>Grandalf mention the likes of them are worth 1000 a piece.. them slewing the regular orcs and even Urak Hai is not a problem for me<P>as for the hobbits.. they would surely be killed swiftly if they were not targeted for capture..<BR>they just manage to get a few cheap shots across b4 they are captured..

10-12-2003, 02:42 PM	#9
Ancalagon_the_Black Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Withered Heath Posts: 10	laughs for joy<P>Oh, yes! I loved that part where Merry and Pippin tackle the Uruk and stick it in the face... Can you imagine what that must have done to the poor Orc's skull? __________________ I have a signature. Isn't that great?

10-13-2003, 11:26 AM	#10
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	In actual combat, the Fellowship went up against Orcs in Moria next to Balin's Tomb. They were outnumbered but probably only by 4 to 1 at the most. (I dont have the book with me so I cannot check). The Orcs were surprised at the ferocity of the defense and retreated for a while, allowing the Fellowship to escape.<P>At Amon Hen Boromir managed to kill about twenty Orcs and Legolas and Gimli also killed a few. The survivors from the Orcs side, as well as even more Orcs from Mordor, were slaughtered with ease by Eomer's company, which wasn't all that large.<P>There's no doubt in my mind that the movie scene at Amon Hen is over the top. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-13-2003, 12:55 PM	#11
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> they would surely be killed swiftly if they were not targeted for capture..<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> That leaves the door open on how the hobbits survived in the movie's version of Moria then...

10-13-2003, 06:09 PM	#12
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I'm not so sure that the Orcs look too pathetic at Amon Hen. Yes, Aragorn (later joined by Legolas and Gimli) does face rather a large force, but they are far more concerned with finding Halflings than with fighting a Man, an Elf and a Dwarf. And so they withdraw down the hill, looking for Hobbits.<P>Boromir too faces a sizeable group of Orcs, and he is attacked because he is attempting to protect two Halflings. However, giving him a valiant last stand against an overwhelmig Orcish force mirrors the book, since, when Aragorn and co find him in the book, he is surrounded by the bodies of the many Orcs that he has killed. <P>But there is one scene, in Moria, in which the Orcs do seem particularly pathetic to me. While the Fellowship is scrambling to get to, and over, the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, they present veritable sitting targets to the Orcish archers, who are shooting from very good vantage positions. And yet they are wholly incapable of getting even one good shot in (in comparison to Legolas who is able to pick them off easily, notwithstanding that he is shooting into the darkness from a crumbling stairway).<P>But then I suppose that this is the stuff that blockbusters are made of ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

10-13-2003, 06:26 PM	#13
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	The main problem I had with the orcs in the movies, was the scene of the ents storming Isenguard and Merry and Pippen killing orcs just by throwing rocks at them. I know hobbits as supposed to be very good at throwing things but to kill that many orcs just by throwing rocks is a little over the top. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

10-13-2003, 10:45 PM	#14
Maéglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 99	Deedlit the actual quote is <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><i>And there are names among us that are worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece."</i><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>However I do not take this quote as literally meaning the likes of Aragorn, Gandalf, or Imrahil as capable of winning against a thousand knights! By worth it probably means a combination of strength, valour, respect etc.<P>And in Moria in the movie when literally those thousands of Orcs surrounded the Fellowship, that was certainly exaggerated. Although the depiction of Trolls was pretty good, admittedly, they were supposed to be big brutes.

10-14-2003, 06:42 AM	#15
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	<B>Voralphion</B>, you don't really want to get hit square on the head with a rock from approximately 19 feet up in the air.<P>Anyway, we're not sure whether they all died or were just knocked down.<p>[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ] __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond