Crowning Under-Achievement - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 09-18-2003, 10:47 PM

I recently saw some pics of Aragorn, wearing what looks like it must be the crown of kings. I would like to point out that if it is the crown of Gondor, it doesn't follow book description at all. Those of you who have seen it will agree that it looks nothing like a Gondorian warrior's helm, especially not loftier. It's more like Theoden's circlet with large decorations like those on Elendil's helm in the Last Alliance scenes. Readers know that Aragorn's crown was explained in great detail, and even drawn by Tolkien himself.If it isn't the crown, and is supposed to be the star of Elendil to adorn his brow in battle, it's way, way too big and crown like. The star was a simple rayed star, a gem, held onto Aragorn's forehead with a silver filet encircling his head. I'm more than just a little ticked off about this, especially since one of the few occasions where Tolkien went into explicit detail about the garb of a character is being ignored.

Aethelwine · 09-19-2003, 01:25 AM

Keeper of Dol Goldur, could you please give a link to that picture, so I can have a look at it. Then I can give you my opinion...Aethelwine.

Diamond18 · 09-19-2003, 01:38 PM

Yes, that would be nice....I'm too lazy to run and get my books right now, but if I recall correctly, Aragorn's crown was a dome with wings coming off it? I saw a sketch Tolkien made of it in "Unfinished Tales". With all due respect, I thought it was the stupidest looking thing I'd ever seen, and I have beening hoping that the movie crew make at least some alterations so it won't look quite so dorky.

Aethelwine · 09-20-2003, 07:37 AM

Ey Keeper, I saw the picture at 'The Councel of Elrond'. I must say, it looks very good. In my copy of 'The letters of Tolkien', I also have picture of Tolkien on how the crown of Gondor should look. It looks, how do I say this nice, interesting... I like to version to be honest, but we don't know if this is his real crown...And Daimond18, here's the link: <A HREF="http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index &do=showpic&pid=13057&orderby=titleA" TARGET=_blank>Aragron crowend</A>Navaer!Aethelwine.

Daisy Brambleburr · 09-20-2003, 08:25 AM

Actually, I think that crown looks pretty good. Although I pictured it a little differently I still like this one a lot. Actually, I am inclined to agree with Diamond18, the crown in the book was a little bit...odd. And yes, we don't really know if it's his crown, but I presonally think that it is (it just looks right to me).

Lord of Angmar · 09-20-2003, 09:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It was shaped like the helms of the Guards of the Citadel, save that it was loftier, and it was all white, and the wings at either side were wrought of pearl and silver in the likeness of the wings of a sea-bird, for it was the emblem of kings who came over the Sea; and seven gems of adamant were set in the circlet, and upon its summit was set a single jewel the light of which went up like a flame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I will admit that this is a very strange description of a crown. The Guards of the Citadel wore helms, and it is said that this adornment is loftier than their helms, and "upon its summit" there is set a jewel. This implies that the top of the crown is not open, but closed like a helm or cap, which is strange indeed. I have not seen Tolkien's rendition of it, so if I am mistaken please correct me.Frankly, the crown in the picture from <A HREF="http://www.councilofelrond.com" TARGET=_blank>www.councilofelrond.com</A> does not seem to bear the least resemblance to that which is described in the book. For one thing, it is not all white, and its basic frame is at least partially laid with gold unless the sun is casting a very strange light on it. I see no gems inlaid in it, nor do I see that it is at all loftier than or in the basic shape of the helms of the Guards (and I am basing the shape of the Guards' helms on the description in the books and the brief instances in which they are shown in the Return of the King movie preview). If this is to be the mantle that Aragorn is crowned with in the third movie, then I should say that it is a rather shabby rendition, or at least a rendition made without much regard for its source material. It looks strangely ancient Eastern, like some sort of formal adornment worn by an Egyptian pharaoh or a priest in the Fertile Crescent.[ September 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

peonydeepdelver · 09-20-2003, 09:21 AM

Yeah, it is a little weird, but looks very muchly like the one he is wearing in TTT at his funeral, doesn't it? When Elrond is telling Arwen about how he'll die and so forth... At least it's not incredibly stereotypical with spikes and rubies and gems embedded in it.

Diamond18 · 09-20-2003, 01:30 PM

Thanks for the link, Aethelwine. I like the way it looks, it's not as pompous or silly looking as the Dome-crown described in the book. I usually prefer the simplicity of circlets, so I'm glad that's the way they went.Lord of Angmar: you should go get a copy of the "Letters" or "Unfinished Tales" (I can't guaruntee it's in that one, I might have been remembering seeing it in the Letters, but it might be in both....) Otherwise you really can't compare the two crowns fairly.Also, the Hildebrandt Brothers drew a couple pictures with Tolkien's crown in it. Now, I know the HB aren't well known for following canon, and have drawn some dorky looking misrepresentations, but in this case they pretty much followed Tolkien's sketch to a tee.<A HREF="http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/kingreturn.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Here's one.</A>

Elladan and Elrohir · 09-20-2003, 04:08 PM

Yep, that's exactly what it looked like in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. The crown Aragorn wears in ROTK the Movie looks pretty cool, but it's not realistic to the book.

Arwen Evenstar the Fair · 09-21-2003, 02:36 PM

well that other picture could just be some really good fan art. but it looks cool, even though thats not the way its suppossed to be.

Finwe · 09-21-2003, 03:11 PM

If Aragorn's crown was supposed to be loftier than the helmets of the Citadel guards, then wouldn't that look a wee bit ludicrous? I mean, the King of Gondor and Arnor would look like he was wearing a very tall, pointy dunce cap with a jewel on the top, and a ring of jewels around the base. I rather like the crown in the picture since it looks a bit more, well, kingly.

Aethelwine · 09-22-2003, 10:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If Aragorn's crown was supposed to be loftier than the helmets of the Citadel guards, then wouldn't that look a wee bit ludicrous? I mean, the King of Gondor and Arnor would look like he was wearing a very tall, pointy dunce cap with a jewel on the top, and a ring of jewels around the base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Indeed Finwe, that's how it looks. I have a picture of it in my 'Letters'. Think of it as the double crown of old Egypt. Adept it to your description, at the wings an stuff, and you have it! Like I said before, it looks... interresting... Navaer!Aethelwine.

09-18-2003, 10:47 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Crowning Under-Achievement I recently saw some pics of Aragorn, wearing what looks like it must be the crown of kings. <P>I would like to point out that if it is the crown of Gondor, it doesn't follow book description at all. Those of you who have seen it will agree that it looks nothing like a Gondorian warrior's helm, especially not loftier. It's more like Theoden's circlet with large decorations like those on Elendil's helm in the Last Alliance scenes. Readers know that Aragorn's crown was explained in great detail, and even drawn by Tolkien himself.<P>If it isn't the crown, and is supposed to be the star of Elendil to adorn his brow in battle, it's way, way too big and crown like. The star was a simple rayed star, a gem, held onto Aragorn's forehead with a silver filet encircling his head. <P>I'm more than just a little ticked off about this, especially since one of the few occasions where Tolkien went into explicit detail about the garb of a character is being ignored. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

09-19-2003, 01:25 AM	#2
Aethelwine Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In Anórien, just outside Edoras, on a horse I "borrowed"... Posts: 150	<B>Keeper of Dol Goldur</B>, could you please give a link to that picture, so I can have a look at it. Then I can give you my opinion...<P>Aethelwine. __________________ Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind--not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. - Catherine to Nelly, Wuthering Heights

09-19-2003, 01:38 PM	#3
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Yes, that would be nice....<P>I'm too lazy to run and get my books right now, but if I recall correctly, Aragorn's crown was a dome with wings coming off it? I saw a sketch Tolkien made of it in "Unfinished Tales". With all due respect, I thought it was the stupidest looking thing I'd ever seen, and I have beening hoping that the movie crew make at least some alterations so it won't look quite so dorky. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

09-20-2003, 07:37 AM	#4
Aethelwine Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In Anórien, just outside Edoras, on a horse I "borrowed"... Posts: 150	Ey <B>Keeper</B>, I saw the picture at 'The Councel of Elrond'. I must say, it looks very good. <BR>In my copy of 'The letters of Tolkien', I also have picture of Tolkien on how the crown of Gondor should look. It looks, how do I say this nice, <I>interesting</I>... <BR>I like to version to be honest, but we don't know if this is his real crown...<P>And <B>Daimond18</B>, here's the link: <A HREF="http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index &do=showpic&pid=13057&orderby=titleA" TARGET=_blank>Aragron crowend</A><P>Navaer!<P>Aethelwine. __________________ Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind--not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. - Catherine to Nelly, Wuthering Heights

09-20-2003, 08:25 AM	#5
Daisy Brambleburr Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 334	Actually, I think that crown looks pretty good. Although I pictured it a little differently I still like this one a lot. <BR>Actually, I am inclined to agree with Diamond18, the crown in the book was a little bit...odd. And yes, we don't really know if it's his crown, but I presonally think that it is (it just looks right to me). __________________ 'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.'

09-20-2003, 09:20 AM	#6
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It was shaped like the helms of the Guards of the Citadel, save that it was loftier, and it was all white, and the wings at either side were wrought of pearl and silver in the likeness of the wings of a sea-bird, for it was the emblem of kings who came over the Sea; and seven gems of adamant were set in the circlet, and upon its summit was set a single jewel the light of which went up like a flame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will admit that this is a very strange description of a crown. The Guards of the Citadel wore helms, and it is said that this adornment is loftier than their helms, and "upon its summit" there is set a jewel. This implies that the top of the crown is not open, but closed like a helm or cap, which is strange indeed. I have not seen Tolkien's rendition of it, so if I am mistaken please correct me.<P>Frankly, the crown in the picture from <A HREF="http://www.councilofelrond.com" TARGET=_blank>www.councilofelrond.com</A> does not seem to bear the least resemblance to that which is described in the book. For one thing, it is not all white, and its basic frame is at least partially laid with gold unless the sun is casting a very strange light on it. I see no gems inlaid in it, nor do I see that it is at all loftier than or in the basic shape of the helms of the Guards (and I am basing the shape of the Guards' helms on the description in the books and the brief instances in which they are shown in the Return of the King movie preview). If this is to be the mantle that Aragorn is crowned with in the third movie, then I should say that it is a rather shabby rendition, or at least a rendition made without much regard for its source material. It looks strangely ancient Eastern, like some sort of formal adornment worn by an Egyptian pharaoh or a priest in the Fertile Crescent.<p>[ September 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

09-20-2003, 09:21 AM	#7
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	Yeah, it is a little weird, but looks very muchly like the one he is wearing in TTT at his funeral, doesn't it? When Elrond is telling Arwen about how he'll die and so forth... At least it's not incredibly stereotypical with spikes and rubies and gems embedded in it. __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh

09-20-2003, 01:30 PM	#8
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Thanks for the link, Aethelwine. I like the way it looks, it's not as pompous or silly looking as the Dome-crown described in the book. I usually prefer the simplicity of circlets, so I'm glad that's the way they went.<P>Lord of Angmar: you should go get a copy of the "Letters" or "Unfinished Tales" (I can't guaruntee it's in that one, I might have been remembering seeing it in the Letters, but it might be in both....) Otherwise you really can't compare the two crowns fairly.<P>Also, the Hildebrandt Brothers drew a couple pictures with Tolkien's crown in it. Now, I know the HB aren't well known for following canon, and have drawn some dorky looking misrepresentations, but in this case they pretty much followed Tolkien's sketch to a tee.<P><A HREF="http://www.timefold.com/brosimages/kingreturn.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Here's one.</A> __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

09-20-2003, 04:08 PM	#9
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Yep, that's exactly what it looked like in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. The crown Aragorn wears in ROTK the Movie looks pretty cool, but it's not realistic to the book. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

09-21-2003, 02:36 PM	#10
Arwen Evenstar the Fair Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 235	well that other picture could just be some really good fan art. but it looks cool, even though thats not the way its suppossed to be. __________________ ~Arwen~

09-21-2003, 03:11 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	If Aragorn's crown was supposed to be loftier than the helmets of the Citadel guards, then wouldn't that look a wee bit ludicrous? I mean, the King of Gondor and Arnor would look like he was wearing a very tall, pointy dunce cap with a jewel on the top, and a ring of jewels around the base. I rather like the crown in the picture since it looks a bit more, well, kingly. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-22-2003, 10:10 AM	#12
Aethelwine Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In Anórien, just outside Edoras, on a horse I "borrowed"... Posts: 150	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>If Aragorn's crown was supposed to be loftier than the helmets of the Citadel guards, then wouldn't that look a wee bit ludicrous? I mean, the King of Gondor and Arnor would look like he was wearing a very tall, pointy dunce cap with a jewel on the top, and a ring of jewels around the base.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Indeed Finwe, that's how it looks. I have a picture of it in my 'Letters'. Think of it as the double crown of old Egypt. Adept it to your description, at the wings an stuff, and you have it! Like I said before, it looks... interresting... <P>Navaer!<P>Aethelwine. __________________ Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind--not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. - Catherine to Nelly, Wuthering Heights