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01-07-2003, 04:52 AM | #1 |
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[J.R.R. Tolkien] New Tolken Book Found
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-m...06/11.30.books
OK sci fi wire had this little tidbit .. New Tolkien Book Found A new, previously unpublished book by Lord of the Rings author J.R.R. Tolkien was discovered by accident in a box at the Bodleian Library in Oxford, England, the News.com.au Web site reported. The yellowing 2,000-page handwritten manuscript contains Tolkien's translation and appraisal of the epic Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf, which is thought to have inspired The Lord of the Rings, the news site reported. I am not Vouching for the validity of this claim and offer my apologies if this topic has come up before. [ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ] |
01-07-2003, 09:39 AM | #2 |
Spectre of Decay
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I for one didn't know that; thanks for bringing the good news. Mind where you point that crossbow, though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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01-07-2003, 10:06 AM | #3 |
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I was recently reading on another website that Tolkien scholars were long aware of the existence of the Beowulf translation. What was completely new was finding the commentary that went with it.
The article also indicated that there were negotiations going on with the estate to have the materials published. No particular publisher has yet been chosen. As such, it is unlikely that the materials will appear in print until at least 2004.
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01-07-2003, 10:33 AM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I read something closely connected to that at this LotR free online class at barnes and noble. He did work on Beowulf, and it's structure is really what formed the various themes. I did think that he worked on Beowulf, and I was quite surprised that our lesson did not mention any existence of such work. Well, until now. Thanks for sharing!
Since I mentioned it, check out Barnesandnobleuniversity.com; they've got a course opening for 15 Jan. It's pretty interesting.
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01-07-2003, 02:10 PM | #5 |
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"Mind where you point that crossbow"
Always my friend, especially when they get launched in pairs [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] |
01-07-2003, 06:50 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks Neferchoirwen, I already enrolled. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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01-07-2003, 09:23 PM | #7 |
Wight
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Hm, looks good. I'll have to get it when it comes out. My one English class spent some time with Beowulf; I'd be interested to hear what Tolkien had to say about it.
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01-07-2003, 09:34 PM | #8 |
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boy did that get my hopes up!
I thought perhaps some missing Silmarillion Chapters, or a History of the divided kingdoms of Arnor, or better yet the missing journeys of Gandalf and the journeys of Aragorn. DOn't ask me for the sources of the jorneys, I read about them awhile back in HoME or letters or... anyway, a Beoulf translation is I must admit pretty low on my list of missing JRRT manuscripts. Thanks for the update though waylander, and welcome to the downs.
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01-08-2003, 06:33 AM | #9 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Than I will be glad to congratulate Belin [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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01-08-2003, 08:09 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Lady_Báin ]
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pæling. |
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01-13-2003, 11:18 AM | #11 |
Cryptic Aura
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A National Post (Canada) newspaper article provides some brief discussion of Beowulf and the Critics by Michael Drout.
Tolkien's translation of Beowulf has not been published in the book, but there is a brief excerpt from it, with the companion passage as translated by Seamus Heaney. For those interested in the style and craft of language, Tolkien's effort to translate Old English into modern English but not a contemporary idiom is interesting. Bethberry EDIT: Trying again: Tolkien's Monster Resurfaces. This one is working now I think. Sorry about that. [ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Bethberry ]
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01-14-2003, 05:27 PM | #12 |
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Hi Bethberry,
That link does not seem to be working, any chance of a re-post as i would quite like to read it. |
01-15-2003, 01:01 AM | #13 |
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Bethberry,
Fascinating. Thanks very much for that. sharon
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01-15-2003, 04:48 AM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Can I ask you lot how to prounounce Beowulf? My English teacher prounounces it Bearwolf-is she right?
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01-16-2003, 07:45 PM | #15 |
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I pronounce it BAY-o-wulf, and I think that's how some other people pronounce it too.
See ya, [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ~M
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01-16-2003, 08:20 PM | #16 |
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Inderjit, your English teacher is daff.
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01-17-2003, 10:16 AM | #17 |
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Yes, she can be quite stupid, but she is still a good teacher. After asking her if I could do about LOTR for my A-Level Englsih course she stated it was too long. 1984 it is then.
[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]
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01-17-2003, 12:21 PM | #18 | |
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Thanks for the link.
I’ve never read any of Tolkien’s essays concerning Beowulf, but have done quite a bit of work with it on my many journeys. And I've come across many learned opinions, and have formed my own. So, I was really surprised to hear Tolkien’s interpretation characterized, in the words of Professor Drout as: Quote:
[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]
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01-17-2003, 05:35 PM | #19 |
Cryptic Aura
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Given that you and I, Bill Ferny, disagree about fundamental principles, I doubt we will be able to discuss much.
Art vs Reality is an old chestnut that would take us off topic, but certainly it needs to be pointed out, on a Tolkien site, that in translating Beowulf Tolkien was concerned with being neither an artist nor a poet. He was a scholar and a philologist. This excerpt of his translation demonstrates that amply, superbly even. His interest was to rattraper le temps perdu and not to create a modern poem in contemporary idiom. Bethberry
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02-25-2003, 09:56 AM | #20 | |
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The article which the above link went to has now been archived, and so I will c&p it here for future reference:
Quote:
PS. Cute, Bill Ferny [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], but a double entendre does not eradicate the fact that your evaluation here of Tolkien's translation confuses different poetic enterprises.
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02-25-2003, 10:14 AM | #21 |
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As one who sees (for example) the value of comparing and contrasting the NIV, the NASB, the King James, and the New King James; who finds them each valuable for different reasons; and who has put verses from each of the four translations to music-- I will simply say this:
~I'm glad Tolkien worked on Beowulf; ~I find his exerpt listed above stunning; ~I'm quite glad I have the other to compare it to; ~but for pure music, I'd choose Tolkien's.
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02-26-2003, 05:40 AM | #22 |
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Bill- for some, perhaps learning the ancient language is an option. For me-- figure the odds! I can barely keep up with my current life. But I sure wish they'd publish Tolkien's work on Beowulf; that I could find time for.
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02-26-2003, 06:00 AM | #23 | |
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People seem to be forgetting that not only will we see Tolkien's translation, there will be a volume of "commentary". Though I don't know exactly what is included, that is the volume I am looking forward to seeing most of all. I doubt it will be a rehash of The Monster and the Critics. I think it will be about the "how's and why's" Tolkien chose certain words in his translation and his take on the events in the poem. That will interest me more than the final translation.
This morning I forgot to include that the verse translation is only about 600 lines long. Tolkien apparently abandoned it. What we'll see is a complete prose translation. --Imladrien here Quote:
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02-26-2003, 09:45 AM | #24 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Amen, Mark12_30.
Why would Tolkien attempt to ratrapper la langue perdue, Bill Ferny? Because it was there to be done, an intellectual curiosity of the mind. Unlike you, I do not think that the stress patterns and alliterative forms of Old English cannot be found in our current language. For those of you who might not know Old English prosody (the structure of stress, rhythm, verse forms), allow me to explain briefly here. Old English poetry was not based on a regular system of fixed or defined stressed and unstressed syllables, nor on rhyming ends of lines. A line in OE poetry consisted of two half-lines, with a strong break or pause (caesura) in the middle of the line. The total number of syllables in each half-line was not fixed. The important point was to have two stressed syllables in each half-line (thus, four stresses in each line). The stressed terms had to alliterate (begin with the same sound). One other feature was the use of compounded words (called kennings), such as 'wordhoard' to refer to what we would now call 'library' or 'book collection.' Tolkien is not alone in his interest in Old English prosody. The Victorian poet Gerard Manley Hopkins also used OE stress patterns, alliteration, and kennings to create his "sprung rhythm." Admittedly, Hopkins is a bit of an acquired taste--no other Romantic or Victorian poet sounds like him--with his deliberate desire to alienate his poetry from the contemporary tongue. This defamiliarizing tendency is inherent in all poetry, although acquired in different ways. (See one of Rimbaud's former sigs, for Shelley on this quality.) It is perhaps valuable at this point to provide one of Hopkins' poems for consideration, in consideration of Lothlorien and death. Quote:
Bethberry
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02-28-2003, 07:11 AM | #25 |
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As said above, if it were only for the translation, it might be that we could find other sources more readable. But as one who had read Tolkiens comentary and prose tarsnlation of the Finnsburgh fragment and Episode I hope mostly to see Prof. Tolkiens commentarys to the Beowulf published.
Respectfully Findegil P.S.: About publishing the transaltion him self: I think if there had not been other people that pushed him, we would not even have seen Pearl or Sir Gwain in print during his lifetime. |
03-02-2003, 05:39 AM | #26 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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Quote:
To my unlettered eyes, Tolkien's translation exceeds Heaney's in elegance and linguistic beauty. Heaney has an undeniable way with words, and I very much enjoyed reading his introduction to his translation, but Tolkien flies where he plods. Without having read the original Anglo-Saxon poem I feel unqualified to comment on the relative accuracy of the two translations, but I think that people who really want to experience Beowulf in its authentic form would do better to refer to the source, as no translation is even going to come close to the feeling of the original work. Any attempt to infuse beauty into the verses, thus encouraging people to tackle the daunting task of comprehending the old poem, will meet with my approval, and in my opinion this is what Tolkien was trying to do. For the record, I thought that the Professor Clarke's comments, accurate though they may be, sounded carping and pretentious. Consider the following Quote:
I find it very depressing that Tolkien's critics often appear to offer no real support for their views beyond the current fashion in translation or literary interpretation. Who is to say that Tolkien was wrong about a subject to which he devoted decades of study? Surely not those who have never even read the original poem, and certainly not me. I do not put forward the argument that Tolkien was invariably right, merely that I preferred the fragment quoted by Bethberry to that from Heaney's translation given therewith, and I will continue to do so even if I find it utterly at variance with the original, which I fully intend to read as soon as I can get hold of an Anglo-Saxon dictionary. Taken as a simple piece of poetry, Tolkien's is by far the more pleasurable to read, and I think that it inspires much more of a sense of beauty than Heaney's translation, brilliant though that undoubtedly is. I put this down to a difference in approach and in no way intend it as a criticism of Seamus Heaney, for whom I have a great deal more respect after having read his carefully-considered work on Beowulf.
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03-02-2003, 12:46 PM | #27 | |
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Squatter, I thank you for recognizing the point of my statement.
Quote:
I speak as someone who has herself translated Beowulf (in part), The Battle of Maldon, The Wanderer, The Seafarer, Cædmon's Hymn, The Dream of the Rood, and prose as well, from the Anglo Saxon Chronicles, to legal prose such as the wills of King Alfred and Ethelfleda, and the religious prose of Alfred and Aelfric. I don't know anyone who took that road with me who would not agree with this. I find Tolkien's translation fascinating, for to me it recovers the very rhythm of heroic song, intended to be sung over the table in the meadhall. He wanted something that got inside the skin of OE and breathed its being. Like Squatter, I have no difficulty accepting the diction. 'hove' is used correctly, and 'fleet foam flecked' is an admirable description to me of waves rolling, topped by white foam in their roiling, which then disappears. And my thanks as well to Findigil for pointing out that Tolkien's diffidence was worlds apart from today's academics who publish at a cutthroat pace, not to share or enlighten, but to build brick upon brick of the unholy tower of self-promotion. Bethberry
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03-02-2003, 09:07 PM | #28 | |
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Quote:
I’m not aquatinted with Professor Clarke outside of the above article, but Clarke’s view regarding the monsters in Beowulf is a popular one today (it was the one that I was taught and took for granted). The monsters give an opportunity for Beowulf to demonstrate his, and his kind’s, greatness. Primordial evils are represented in more human form, such as Queen Modthryth who randomly kills those she doesn’t like, the cunning and scheming Hrothulf, and the domineering King Heremod who recklessly throws away human life. Clarke’s camp does carry the burden of proof by placing Beowulf in comparison to Scandinavian and continental eulogium, and Anglo-Saxon hagiography. The above article’s scope didn’t give Professor Clarke ample opportunity to explain this bit of exegesis. You can’t blame Clarke for that. After reading The Monsters and the Critics (which I just read mainly due to this thread), I’m not sure which way to lean on the issue. Professor Tolkien is, admittedly, a bit of a romantic, but anyone who knows me would know that I find this to be an admirable trait. On the other hand, I’m a stickler for factual realism. I doubt, though, that these two approaches are really saying two entirely different things. Beowulf’s greatness sets him apart from Hrothulf, Modthryth and Heremod. His greatness enables him to defeat the monsters. Isn’t Professor Tolkien correct then in drawing a parallel between the monsters and the primordial evils represented by the human monsters? Isn’t Grendel and the dragon pictures of these evils that live in the hearts of wicked people, stripped, as it were, from the human forms that so often encase them? [ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]
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03-03-2003, 01:21 PM | #29 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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Quote:
I agree with you that the positions of the two critics, Tolkien and Clarke, can be reconciled with ease, which makes me wonder why Clarke seems so vehemently opposed to the earlier scholar's point of view. By comparison, Seamus Heaney is very complimentary of Tolkien in his introduction to his own translation: Quote:
I don't know how the rest of Tolkien's Beowulf compares with the piece that Bethberry quoted, but I needed no help with my understanding of that example, and my own education has been nothing if not average. I would regard an annotation of it as an insult to my intelligence.
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03-03-2003, 01:55 PM | #30 |
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Bethberry --
Interesting thread. I didn't know (among many other things on this page) that all the stressed syllables had to be alliterated. I love the Seamus Heaney Beowulf. I have a CD of him reading the whole story, it's great during commutes to work. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] For no good reason other than, I like this poem, here is a similarly alliterative translation from Old English. Actually Pound says, "from the Anglo Saxon" - that would be different I suppose? (Totally fearless about showing my ignorance. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) May I for my own self song's truth reckon, Journey's jargon, how I in harsh days Hardship endured oft. Bitter breast-cares have I abided, Known on my keel many a care's hold, And dire sea-surge, and there I oft spent Narrow nightwatch nigh the ship's head While she tossed close to cliffs. Coldly afflicted, My feet were by frost benumbed. Chill its chains are; chafing sighs Hew my heart round and hunger begot Mere-weary mood. Lest man know not That he on dry land loveliest liveth, List how I, care-wretched, on ice-cold sea, Weathered the winter, wretched outcast Deprived of my kinsmen; Hung with hard ice-flakes, where hail-scur flew, There I heard naught save the harsh sea And ice-cold wave, at whiles the swan cries, Did for my games the gannet's clamour, Sea-fowls, loudness was for me laughter, The mews' singing all my mead-drink. . . . . No man at all going the earth's gait, But age fares against him, his face paleth, Grey-haired he groaneth, knows gone companions, Lordly men are to earth o'ergiven, Nor may he then the flesh-cover, whose life ceaseth, Nor eat the sweet nor feel the sorry, Nor stir hand nor think in mid heart, And though he strew the grave with gold, His born brothers, their buried bodies Be an unlikely treasure hoard. (Edited to remove 50 lines or so. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) [ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Turambar ]
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03-03-2003, 02:45 PM | #31 |
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I liked and understood the excerpt from Tolkien's translation (the part printed here seemed poorly punctuated, maybe?), and I've read and enjoyed Heaney's translation, too. I liked looking at the Old English original across the page, as well, because even if you couldn't undestand it, you could read it--well, if you figured out how the letters sounded--and get an idea of the poem. I would be very interested to read Tolkien's Beowulf, because it sounds like he captures that flavor of it. Just using uncommon words and phrases gives it a more ancient feel, and I like that. I am confused, though, is it published or not?
I couldn't follow Bill and Bethberry's discussion, but I certainly didn't like that professor Clark's tone. I don't think you can argue about someone's interpretation of something over a thousand years old being "completely wrong," unless you were there when it was written! And I always saw the monsters as hostile nature-forces, too. But then, I'm a physicist, not an English student...
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03-03-2003, 03:19 PM | #32 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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This is indeed a very interesting thread...
Quote:
I'm no Linguist, but I liked Tolkien's interpretation. Waylander: Thanks for bringing up the topic and to Bethberry for the informative article... |
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03-04-2003, 10:06 AM | #33 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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I apologize, Dalin and InklingElf, if my words have been obtuse. I am simply defending Tolkien's right to translate Beowulf as he saw fit. I would be happy to clarify any of my statements if you want to PM me about them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Turambar, welcome back! Good of you to post another modern version of alliterative verse. Pound's translation of The Seafareris not particularly 'faithful' to the original, and sometimes I think it unduly convoluted, but it still makes for interesting reading I think. Strictly speaking, among scholars and pedants at least, 'Anglo Saxon' is reserved for the people and culture of the nation while 'Old English' refers to the language. Usually, I think, Bill Ferny, it is the writer who decides how to develop his argument, rather than the other discussants. Quote:
Squatter, thank you for expressing so eloquently my thoughts. *bows* Quote:
[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: Bethberry ]
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03-04-2003, 03:17 PM | #34 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I was reading UT last night and I thought there was a short section (in the Istari chapter I think) that looked like Old English as Bb has described it - each line was halved, equal number stresses in each half, etc. Does anyone remember what I'm talking about, or have this book handy? It was past my bedtime, so I may have imagined the whole thing. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: Turambar ]
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03-04-2003, 06:49 PM | #35 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Bethberry
Quote:
Turambar:[quote]I was reading UT last night and I thought there was a short section (in the Istari chapter I think) that looked like Old English as Bb has described it - each line was halved, equal number stresses in each half, etc. Does anyone remember what I'm talking about, or have this book handy? It was past my bedtime, so I may have imagined the whole thing.[quote] :takes out her handy-dandy UT [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]: I think I know what you're talking about. This one?: ------------------------ Wilt thou learn the lore of the Five that came One only returned. under Men's dominion until Dagor Dagorath How hast thou heard it: of the Lord's of the West The long roads are lost and to mortal Men From the West-that-was to the sleeper's ear, under night-shadow, from lands forgotten over seas of years Not all are forgotten Sauron he saw [and the other half:] that was long secret from a far country? Others never again Middle-earth shall seek and the Doom cometh. the hidden counsel in the land of Aman? that led tither, Manwe speaks not. a wind bore it in the silences when news is brought and lost ages to the searching thought. by the Elder King. a slow menace.... -------------------------- Sorry about the line spacing, but it couldn't fit, and it's hard enough trying to type it from a paper-back I'm trying to keep wrinkle-free...I hope It's the right one, because it's the only one that fit your description. It came from pg. 413 in my book.But if this isn't it-it's probably your imagination [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . This is intersting-i'll leave the answering to Bb. [right now I've got to go. Got lots or school work to do and I don't intend to procrastinate!] BTW:I'm also reading the UT, but I'm still on The Disaster of the Gladden Fields... |
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03-06-2003, 07:36 PM | #36 |
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Bethberry, no need to apologise. It was merely that, as usual, it was late and I had to skim a bit of the technical discussion you were having. I have since gone back through it, and have found it most interesting. Though I still don't think I understand it... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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03-07-2003, 08:47 AM | #37 |
Cryptic Aura
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Yes, Inkling, I am sure that is what Turambar is referring to. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It uses the alliterative and stress patterns of Old English poetry.
Oh, I agree--it is indeed difficult to type in text, particularly with 'uncooperative' paperback texts. Can I make a suggestion, however? Typing the line breaks separately, as if they were different stanzas, makes it difficult to see the alliteration and understand the stress patterns. Would it be possible to intersperse the lines, putting the second half of each line after the first half, so that the rhythm is maintained? I think this could be done by cutting and pasting each second half line between the lines of the first 'stanza'. In the example I gave above of Tolkien's translation of Beowulf, the lines do not correlate well. I will try to fix that later today, so reading the translation will have a better 'flow.' Bethberry
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03-07-2003, 12:49 PM | #38 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Thanks! I'll try it when I get home.
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03-08-2003, 02:57 PM | #39 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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oh darn! it still doesn't work. Sorry Bethberry...
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03-09-2003, 06:26 AM | #40 |
Cryptic Aura
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Hi Inkling,
Thanks for trying. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I've played around with it myself. I also cannot get the caesura to space properly, so I've marked it by a double slash. This way, the stress of each line shows. I hope this helps. Here's the poem: Wilt thou learn the lore // that was long secret of the Five that came // from a far country? One only returned. // Others never again under Men's dominion // Middle-earth shall seek until Dagor Dagorath // and the Doom cometh. How hast thou heard it: // the hidden counsel of the Lord's of the West // in the land of Aman? The long roads are lost // that led tither, and to mortal Men // Manwe speaks not. From the West-that-was // a wind bore it to the sleeper's ear, // in the silences under night-shadow, // when news is brought from lands forgotten // and lost ages over seas of years // to the searching thought. Not all are forgotten // by the Elder King. Sauron he saw // a slow menace.... Bethberry
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