Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLIX - At the Source of Darkness

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Fea

Which is why I'm inclined to believe you, and support whole-heartedly your narcissism. Hold out and listen to me: I approve of the phantom's approach of diverting all attention to himself because it guarantees that if he's bad, the seer will know it early and we'll be able to kill him, and if he's good, he'll have somebody on his side.

I think it's very silly to assume that the cobbler assassin or the seer have done or are going to choose a specific person, I don't care who.

Originally Posted by Fea

That might be a first in werewolf history, that an entire village votes for a 'known' innocent rather than even bothering to try to win the game.

The entire village didn't vote for Kitanna. Greenie and I voted for Gwath, Brinniel and Eonwe voted for Greenie, Lommy voted for Nogrod, Nogrod for Groin, and phantom for Lalaith. The scattered voting at the very end is of concern, but everyone's too busy still arguing about yesterDay and is distracted by Form and of course ever distracted by phantom.

I agree with Brinniel on Nerwen. I agree with Greenie on Mith - her moves yeterDay have practically made her an assumed innocent. She feels innocent to me in her manner, but that is definitely something to pay attention to.

I'm still looking at Nogrod.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Quite honestly, I just don't see why a wolf would want to lynch Kitanna rather than have a chance of the death of two innocents in one Day.

To gain the village's trust. To do something people wouldn't expect a wolf to do. Their goal is more to survive than just to mindlessly slaughter as quickly as possible! To leave a clean vote. To continue a debate that will distract the village...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Contrare- I'm not against him. I'm for him. I have no desire to see him hang, and if votes are looking to head his way, I am going to do my best to get somebody else to die. I repeat: I do not think the phantom is a good lynch candidate. I will not vote for him [at least not today, and probably not tomorrow].

My concentration on his skillful manipulation serves not to convict him but to prove that he intentionally draws enough attention to himself that he is incapable of avoiding the seer, and in this game the cobbler hunter. He makes himself, therefore, into a target.

A target which survived the night.

A target which, if I have any say, will survive the day.

Hang on. Is this because you believe the Ghost Who Walks to be innocent, or...?

EDIT: X'd with Durelin.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Fea

In which case we really do disagree. I've thought about killing people. That does not make me a murderer. No court on earth has a leg to stand on if they wanted to try to nail me on guilt of being a murderous criminal. Until there is a crime, there is not a criminal. Until there is an ACTION, not a thought, to hide or defend, there is absolutely nothing to prosecute. You can't hold trial for somebody who's 'just thinking about it.'

In that line, somebody who hasn't done anything, having nothing to hide, has no guilt to keep people from noticing. Day One is a day in which nobody is guilty of anything. Nothing has been done. Since there was no crime, nothing to hide: nothing!, there is no evidence to search through.

No, no, no. That's a bad comparison. Werewolves don't just think about or plan killing somebody. They know they are going to do it. They have to do it in order to win. There's a big difference. So, naturally, they are feeling guilty already on Day1 because they know they're going to kill sombody and thus, their guilt can show, and analysing people's Day1 behaviour is not nonsense.

I think I'll reread yesterDay when I have the time and energy to do that. meanwhile, I could provide you with a nice little list about my thoughts on everybody...


Feel innocentish

Eönwë - shines with the light of ordoness, if one may say so. If he's a baddie, he's really sneaky.

Greenie - overall, her tone seems sincere and she has done nothing to make me suspicious of her. My picture of her is rather vague though, I hope she posts a little more in the future. (But I guess she's going to be rather busy today... too bad.)

Mith - her tone is sincere as well and she seems quite relaxed. She doesn't seem unhappy or stressed like many evil Miths do. I think suggesting lynching Kitanna would have been quite bold of a wolf. (Not of a cobbler though. But she doesn't feel cobblerish at all to me. She's not particularily silly nor does she look like she's scheming something dangerous. And she doesn't look like she's trying to get lynched.)

Nilp - nothing in his manner seems too suspicious, he seems rather okay. He is reasonable and doesn't make sense (yes, you probably read it correctly) the way innocents do. I know he has fooled me before, though. I think he might be one of those people who just don't give wolvish vibes even if they are furry. I might need to keep an eye on him but I don't feel like I had a reason to be extra watchful... (Yeah, I know I'm flip-flopping, but I cannot express myself any more clearly...)

Could be either

Brinn - yesterDay, she seemed really innocent to me. Today, not so much. Somehow I have the feeling she's on the wrong track in her general ideas, maybe because I disagree with her about the Kitanna lynch, for example. I wonder if she's "wrong" intentionally... () I hoped I had grown out of suspecting people who disagree with me, but evidently I haven't. There's nothing particularly suspicious in her manner though, so it's pretty difficult to reach a conclusion.

Fea - I always have hard time reading her. I think her phantom-centeredness might point at her being either an ordo or a cobbler. Furthermore, she hasn't done anything suspicious, but if I had to guess who's a wolf, I would possibly name her. I know, it's silly, I'm not really suspicious of her, but I have a kind of intuition she might be a wolf. She's someone I'm definitely going to watch.

Groin - there's really too little data. Come on guy, come here and post! It's not that difficult or scary!

Gwath - I have really mixed feelings about him. In general, he feels quite innocent, but there's something all too sneaky in his manner. I think he could be a wolf who's tiptoeing around. But it's very difficult to say.

Kath - well what can I possibly say? I'm glad she's finally here, though.

Nerwen - as always, she is difficult to read - the same Nerwen as ever. I have the uncomfortable feeling that she's a wolf slipping under my radar, but that is probably because I've got slightly paranoid about her after one certain game... I mean, there is nothing particularly suspicious in her and she makes sense. Maybe I should just watch her more closely.

phantom - he's all over the place, bossing people around and being rather self-centered. It's all normal for him and doesn't have anything to do with his role. He does throw cobblerish comments around, but on the other hand, he could be just trying to avoid getting killed by the wolves or having fun or whatever. He doesn't give me any wolvish vibes, but I don't get it when people keep saying that he's too bold to be a wolf. I don't think he has done anything particularily bold.

Slightly suspicious

Durelin - I agree with her on many points and she does make sense. However, she's having too much fun not to look like a cobbler.

Form - he doesn't even try to look like he's contributing. He also all too happily votes tp right after Shasta. So need I even say aloud that he looks rather cobbleristic? The only thing I really like in him is the way he criticises yesterday's lynch. *smug smile*

Nogrod - like I've said, his early posting yesterDay looked pretty cobbleristic. When people complained about it, he cooled down. A clever cobbler who does not want to lose the game too early? He could be that. Also, some of his arguments seem evilly irrational to me. I don't think he's a wolf though, but I would be less than surprised to find out that he's a cobbler.

Shasta - that guy has been slipping under the radar, and then he goes and makes this rather irrational early vote while he's still able to hang around. He is either a very annoyed innocent, a wolf looking for an excuse to make a safe vote or even a cobbler wishing to add a little to the confusion. I think the two first mentioned options are more probable, though.


Guys, I have a suggestion. Let's stop looking for wolves and start looking for cobblers. I would be far less confused. Seriously, all my even a little serious suspects are suspects of cobblery, and we should preferably lynch wolves. The only ones I even slightly suspect of wolfisness are Shasta, Fea, Nerwen and Gwath, but I don't really suspect any of them enough to be happy with voting them. Maybe I could vote Shasta, but that's it, of them. I'd be tempted to vote one of those I think are cobblers but that would be kind of stupid... argh. I'm glad I still have a lot of time to think about these things and (hopefully) read new posts by everybody.


edit: xed with Gwath, Fea, Dury and Nerwie - yay, action!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Guys, I have a suggestion. Let's stop looking for wolves

Why? Are we getting close to finding one?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++SHASTA

Because I don't know how to get to the airport, I don't know if her flight will be late, and I don't know how many errands she intends to run before we return. So I don't know when I'll be back.

If I'm back by end of day, I'll read through and post again. I like Day Twos. They're highly educational.

[Gwathagor]

I'm pretty busy toDay, but I'll be back before DL. Promise.

I want Groin to show up. He had mentioned some points regarding a potential wolf and I am interested to know what they are.

[Durelin]

Both Form and Gwath seem like they're trying to make enemies.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Normally, I would read Lalaith's death as a sign that tp is not a wolf, as they both voted against each other yesterDay, and most wolves would like to avoid drawing attention to themselves in that way. However, tp thrives on attention and is supremely confident; therefore, he might try it. He could be a wolf, but I can't say for sure.

You fail to mention somehing: Lalaith was very suspicious of you. Maybe you didn't want her to "watch and wait" for you to do something to her, and killed her in the night, eh? *nudges*

Maybe I was wrong about Greenie. But maybe she's just purposely attacking a fellow wolf. I'll just have to (as Lalaith said) watch and wait.

edit: apaling speling

[Kath]

I know that many of you hate it when I do this but as I saw nothing of yesterDay I need to get my thoughts in order which means, yes, a list. Though it's really a 'find the odd things' list so will appear completely biased.

Nog - rather pointless so far, and what's with that 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 list in which everything useful in it could be said in one paragraph making it much easier to read?! Don't know whether he was trying to be warning or inflammatory with that narration quote about the cobblers, the fact that it specifically said it was too dark for them to see each other seemed obvious. My suspicion would be that right now they can't see each other ... but perhaps if they're left alive long enough they will eventually be told who the others are, thus making them a 'better' enemy.

phantom - I am intrigued by the niceness of his first post. But as I'm ill equipped to deal with two Werewolves all on my own, it is currently in my best interest to work with you guys to lynch them. Does that really sound like the phantom we all know?

Durelin - a little bit of stating the obvious.

Eonwe -

Gwath -

Form -

Lalaith -

Groin - says to beware of those who are very loud, after mentioning at the beginning of his post that he is quiet.

Nerwen -

Shasta -

Brinn -

Lommy - 'two wolves are easy to find' is an interesting thing to say, I would have thought the fewer wolves there are the harder they are to find.

Mith -

Nilp -

Greenie -

One thing I will say outside all this. Don't underestimate a Cobbler. Alright, so my experience with them is very different to most as I owe my win in one game to a very impressive Cobbler attack, but that just proves the point. The wolves are the main target it's agreed, but the Cobblers may not be as unthreatening as some people seem to think.

Gah, I have to go out, this is as far as I've got which is why it looks quite so unfinished. I'm at post 60 of Day 1 at the moment, I'll finish it off when I get back.

[Groin Redbeard]

Circumstances beyond my control have come up, I expect this will be my last post.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I want Groin to show up. He had mentioned some points regarding a potential wolf and I am interested to know what they are.

Not to be entirely unhelpful, I'll give my points now.

I very much disliked Nogrod's conversation during the first day, taking more words than needed to say what needed to be said (and what he said was common sense). He played in well to the pointless part of his occupation, I don't know if that was planned or by accident but it is a good disguise for a wolf.

I made my suspicions known in my first post I made my suspicions known about loud wolves. Then he started to attack me with how I was feeling "wolfish" to him, he even voted against me with only that one post to go on. It is my opinion that a wolf will be compelled to speak, sometimes loudly, to stay out of the suspicions of others. It is the quiet who get lynched and the great who get killed in the night (yes you may quote me on that )!

Decide for yourself if you think this makes sense.

EDIT: X'ed with Eonwe and Kath.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kath

phantom - I am intrigued by the niceness of his first post. But as I'm ill equipped to deal with two Werewolves all on my own, it is currently in my best interest to work with you guys to lynch them. Does that really sound like the phantom we all know?

Yes. Self centered and arrogant (no offence meant, btw). But anyway, I digress here.

Hello Kath!

*goes into action mode*

OK, where was I?

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I like Day Twos. They're highly educational.

Yes, you get to find out what people think about Day 1. The only problem is that, with no proper lynch, this is more like Day 1.5™ than Day 2.

Edit: Before there was so much x-posting, and now, nothing.

[Nogrod]

Back again... just a quick answer for starters and then some discussion...

I mean it looks like I owe you an explanation as it was only Lalaith who seems to have gotten the joke. So my first post was made in a style of a philosophy student who has grasped a lot of theories but is going in circles and dead ends only to contradict himself with theory piled on another (the pointless philosopher). The second post and the few addenda to it were indeed made in style of Ludwig Wittgenstein's famous Tractatus Logico Philosphicus - the numbering of points into main cases and their derivatives etc... in logical order.

It was fun indeed. Sadly, it seems, a lot underappreciated... I thought I tried to add some actual points in there as well - the little that could be said in the beginning of Day1...

Originally Posted by Groin

I made my suspicions known in my first post I made my suspicions known about loud wolves. Then he started to attack me with how I was feeling "wolfish" to him, he even voted against me with only that one post to go on.

Sorry Groin but I didn't "attack you" because you said the loud ones are wolves - I wasn't even a loud one myself on Day1 - and I hope I won't be one toDay either (I'm trying my best not to). And surely, why would I take the burden of all us (normally) loud-ones to myself? I'm not that egotistic.

The point I voted you - and suspected you on the contrary to what you think - was actually that you only made one post which was all too agreeable. It looked like trying to gain some friends, to say something overtly general that would not upset anyone too much and then you just vanished. What a perfect way for a wolf to slip under everyone's radar on Day1 and get through it!

(Or as the new phrasing goes: "sleep under everyone's reindeer"! )

Today I saw your explanation in the discussion thread and think differently of you. And your points even make me more confident you're not a wolf - as misled or wrong they are. And I can't stop wondering why tp decided to suspect you after your post on the discussion thread... As someone said it looked to me as well more like an innocent wishing to share a point and nothing more.

Okay. That's it for me on the subject. I'll turn to the matter of hunting the wolves and/or cobblers next.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I would like to pull a phantom and get all your attention, but the only attention I know how to get involves plus-pluses. Which means I'll get your attention only for the DAY, before disappearing into obscurity--and the ground.

Yes, you get to find out what people think about Day 1. The only problem is that, with no proper lynch, this is more like Day 1.5 than Day 2. (Eönwë)

We did get a proper voting. Why so sad?

And I can't stop wondering why tp decided to suspect you after your post on the discussion thread... As someone said it looked to me as well more like an innocent wishing to share a point and nothing more.

Actually he thought Groin was the seer, and not suspicious--it was I who suspected them.

Enedwaith, I have to be going, won't be back the next DAY, so . . . hope to do some analysis during my field work in Bataan.

We can all hope.

Yes. Enedwaith, here's my list yesterday:

Lommy, Gwath, and Durelin look somewhat entrail-covered to me, or at least ice cream-flavoured. Will observe them closer when I get back--if you let me live that long.

I have observed them, and it's

++Gwathagor

that looks most entrail/ice-cream covered to me.

[Nogrod]

Okay. the phantom first then...

Originally Posted by the phantom

As far as Lalaith, I can't imagine she was pegged as a potential Seer. Her words about Nog and Gwath were nothing overly convicting- "benefit of the doubt just for now" and "watch and wait" and she made it clear that her suspicion of me stemmed from Cobblerism, something a Seer cannot see. In addition she doesn't seem to place any one special person in an innocent position, so no Seer flags there either.

Looking through yesterday nobody really raises a Seer flag. Or at least not obviously.

Now if tp is a wolf that would be exactly what he would say! Or at least one of the reasonable options for him.

Look at the first underlining. So he downplays the theory about Lalaith giving seer-hints in the disguise of points on cobblerism with the reason that the seer can't see cobblers. If the conspiracy-theory holds then that was exactly the reason tp and his mate wished to do away with her. Lalaith's go on tp was definitive - and tp is quick to think he has been the one dreamt of by the seer on Night1 as you all know, I think.

The second underlined sentence just gives the case some added credibility even if as such it's of no good. But downplaying the idea that there was any seerish looking posting on Day1 eases the pressure on this particular case of Lalaith - phantom as well. But in the last instance it's only the wolves who can say whether someone's posting looked seerish in a way of being like that in it's tenor and also hitting the target eg. being possible "seer-posting".

So despite all his eloquence, charm and entertainment value I will be looking at the phantom more closely toDay.

Fea next... (after a pause with a cigarette and some thinking & reading...)


EDIT: X'd with Nilp

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nilp

Actually he thought Groin was the seer, and not suspicious--it was I who suspected them.

Yes, you suspected Groin first toDay but the phantom agreed with the possibility of your idea in post #179 - which was kind of an un-phantomish thing...


EDIT: Explanation as to why it is an unphantomish thing to do: he went to it somehow too quickly or easily. Like he was happy that someone brought forwards one more possibility for him to use his imagination and to back up his forthcoming vote. No, it's not that he needs help but maybe he just let his feeling show through the post that "yay, one more case I could make!".

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Fea

With the votes all going for Kitanna, the wolves and cobblers got a completely free day without even the threat of death. That might be a first in werewolf history, that an entire village votes for a 'known' innocent rather than even bothering to try to win the game.

Perhaps the first time it's been done, but certainly not the first time it's been tried. We all remember WW 4, don't we? *snicker*

Originally Posted by me

I think he knows good and well that I'm innocent and wants me gone.

Originally Posted by Greenity-Greeny-Green

Could you elaborate? Why exactly do you presume that Form knows you are innocent?

Didn't you see- I changed my mind on that. That was only my initial reaction, but after reading what Nerwen had to say I became convinced of her theory.

And I see I'm not the only person who has noticed something. There are at least three others. I'd bet more but they are wisely keeping mum. One for sure was taken in, and another is being taken in but not in the correct manner. I must think how to proceed....

Fea- I'll address this to you seeing as I'm rather confident you've caught it and you give me the best chance at finding the same wavelength without being too specific. I just need to bounce something off of you.

I understand that it can be a rather good idea to ruin one's credibility with certain members of the village for the sake of protection, but isn't there a huge risk of backfiring? Or do you think that it is simply worth the risk to protect someone who should not die and flush out someone who should. Argh... it's hard to say this without actually saying it. Do you understand where I'm coming from at all?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nogood- erm, Nogrod

Lalaith's go on tp was definitive

Wrong. If she had shown up as our dead Seer then the comments she made regarding her vote on me would've clearly been interpreted as "This is just a vote, don't follow this." You did see what she posted right after her vote didn't you?-

Originally Posted by Lal

I've little or no idea who is a wolf

That's quite clear.

If she were the Seer she would've had two options- lay low or don't.

If she's the Seer and knows I'm a WW already and chooses the lay low option for survival sake, then there's no need to say anything about me at all, let alone vote for me. But if she chooses not to lay low then she would obviously say something to back up her vote rather than posting words that serve to water down her vote, as if she's afraid her vote will be trusted.

Do you understand this point?

[the phantom]

I have to rush off to meet some out-of-towners for lunch, but I'll be back during the final hour for sure.

[Nerwen]

Groin is dropping out– see the admin thread.

I know! Let's lynch him!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Fea, first thing toDay

-what I intended to post last night.

I copied it into a word document so I wouldn't lose all my thoughts.

And what was it... a few jokes and some rant / general defending of the phantom... So not much into the effect that she would "lose all her thoughts"... That kind of makes me wonder why she posted it? Sure I don't doubt it was written during Day1 but just why to post it as everything in it was kind of yesterday's news if news at all... and why to try and give the posting the credibility with a phrase "so I wouldn't lose all my thoughts"? Looks like an agenda-stuff... Fishy.

Also in #165 she carefully downplays any information to be gotten from early wolf-kills. Now if she and tp were the wolves and they killed Lalaith for fear of her being the seer that would be a neat way to address the situation.

And their permanent courting would be just the way they would perform as an evil-duo. Just incredible enough but somewhat natural to them.

Her insistence about there not being a crime and thence no guilt on Day1 just enhances the feeling: do not look to what happened on Day1 - but maybe later. If the theory of Fea and tp being the wolves is true that would be a wise way to try and discourage the speculation on Lalaith's death which does point to tp.

(Yes, I'm still aware that all I say is something the wolves wished me to think by setting tp up by killing Lalaith but I think this must be thought through before giving a verdict on it.)

Someone alrready noticed her "I have a dream... dream... dream" stuff. That would make her a cobbler rather than a fellow wolf. In that light she would believe tp is a wolf. Now would she be wrong? Would her "phantocentricism" be part of the scheme to let him know she's on his side? And surely it's possible Fea is a cobbler and tp is an ordo, Fea just believes tp is a wolf...

In #196 after a few initial complains about Day1 votes she says:

Originally Posted by Fea

With the votes all going for Kitanna, the wolves and cobblers got a completely free day without even the threat of death. That might be a first in werewolf history, that an entire village votes for a 'known' innocent rather than even bothering to try to win the game.

As well as inaccurate and wrong it also smells of lycanthrophy or at least cobblerism. There is something in that tone - like in the tone of Formendacil's complaints - that just sounds like they are coming from a mouth who knows more or tries to make her/himself look better than s/he is. I can't explain it. But read it and feel it. I mean an innocent wouldn't have that feel in their posts... I could have written that were I a wolf.

Her last stances on tp are that the more he gets the attention the more probable it is he will be dreamt of / cobbler-assasinated. That is kind of true. But if they are a pair in evil wouldn't that be just what she would have to say before someone else says it? And she already now stresses that he survived the Night - like the cobbler-assassin had no others to contemplate! And tp has I think stressed the cobbler-assasinator as well - more than a seer to looik for him...

A wolf would like to create an air that the cobbler assassin should check his "innocence" and not the seer. And if the wolf is someone as high profile as tp he should be as enigmatic and space-taking as he could as the seer might anyway dream of him sooner than later.

Looking at that I'd say the two might be in cahoots indeed - and playing fantastically! Well I wouldn't await for less from them...

But yes, these are just thoughts made from the perspective of the Devil's advocate. I need to think other things too. And I may be soon going out to the "Night of Arts" (running after Lommy and Greenie).

We'll all be back later though.

And we'll fight for the PC-time then all three of us...

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Lommy

However, she's having too much fun not to look like a cobbler.

Well if having fun is such a crime...

And aw, Nerwen beat me to it...

[Kath]

I'll italicise any part of the post I put up before just so it's clear.

Nog - rather pointless so far, and what's with that 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 list in which everything useful in it could be said in one paragraph making it much easier to read?! Don't know whether he was trying to be warning or inflammatory with that narration quote about the cobblers, the fact that it specifically said it was too dark for them to see each other seemed obvious. My suspicion would be that right now they can't see each other ... but perhaps if they're left alive long enough they will eventually be told who the others are, thus making them a 'better' enemy.

phantom - I am intrigued by the niceness of his first post. But as I'm ill equipped to deal with two Werewolves all on my own, it is currently in my best interest to work with you guys to lynch them. Does that really sound like the phantom we all know?

Durelin - a little bit of stating the obvious. Talks herself in circles about possible Gifted/Cobbler reveals which again strikes me as a little bit of being obvious.

Eonwe -

Gwath -

Form -

Lalaith -

Groin - says to beware of those who are very loud, after mentioning at the beginning of his post that he is quiet.

Nerwen -

Shasta -

Brinn -

Lommy - 'two wolves are easy to find' is an interesting thing to say, I would have thought the fewer wolves there are the harder they are to find. Something odd in the way she's gone after Nogrod all Day, but that's pure gut feeling. Also potentially deliberately misunderstood something phantom said to ... I don't know, try to discredit him?

Mith -

Nilp - does seem to just grab onto what everyone else is thinking.

Greenie -

One thing I will say outside all this. Don't underestimate a Cobbler. Alright, so my experience with them is very different to most as I owe my win in one game to a very impressive Cobbler attack, but that just proves the point. The wolves are the main target it's agreed, but the Cobblers may not be as unthreatening as some people seem to think.

Hmm well, didn't add much else as it turns out. That was all from Day 1 btw. So, results are:

Suspicious:
Nog
phantom
Durelin
Groin
Lommy
Nilp

Not suspicious:
Eonwe
Gwath
Form
Lalaith
Nerwen
Shasta
Brinn
Mith
Greenie

Will now go on and look at toDay and then I'll have to vote because I won't be here at the deadline.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I know! Let's lynch him!

I heard that! Good luck everyone, with the exception of the Were Wolves!

[Mithalwen]

Did you see that ? He is wishing the Cobblers luck... LYNCH him....

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Durelin

And aw, Nerwen beat me to it...

So sorry...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by phantom

If she were the Seer she would've had two options- lay low or don't.

Yes. But if she had some knowledge she would face the dilemma of whether to tell it and just hope for the best or to go forwards. So by her vote she might show her knowledge (no clear reason behind it) and with the excuse "I've little or no idea who is a wolf" she tries to make you confident she doesn't exactly know anything... and that would be exactly the behaviour the wolves would have their antennas tuned towards. And that is the point here: why was she killed?

The seers may take many different tactics depending on their confidence of not being killed the next Night, their general risk-taking ways etc. But if she was right with you tp I'd say you would be competent enough to spot it even if it was done with reservations and suspecting you of cobblerism...

Okay, I'm off now as well for a moment.

[Kath]

Oh, well I was going to do Day 2 but due to a misunderstanding I have no dinner and so must go and get myself some and then I'm leaving for some socialising. Therefore I have to vote now:

++LOMMY

I have little reasoning for any of those I found suspicious yesterday but I have been keeping up with the thread toDay. She was really quite overly cross I think at an early point and while she hasn't dropped her suspicion of Nogrod it hasn't been mentioned except in one post unlike yesterDay when she was quite vocal about it. I admit it was a close run thing between her and Nog but then I always, always find Nog suspicious so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Nerwen]

And now to make myself (pseudo) useful:

The votes so far:

Shasta –> the phantom.
Form –> the phantom.(2)
Fea –> Shasta.
Nilp –> Gwathagor
Kath –> Lommy

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I found more time than I thought I had. Curious, that.

Why is Fea so adamant about keeping phantom alive? Two possibilities strike:

1. She's the seer and dreamt of him.
2. They're wolves together.

Yes, I am a bit annoyed, Lommy. We all saw last game how dangerous it can be to narrow our focus on one person, and phantom is just replaying his strategy from last game, seemingly.

And considering that I'm not the only one to have made an odd early vote (see Form), Fea voting me on that basis alone seems odd.

Edit: X'd with Nerwen.

[Durelin]

I don't like Kath's attitude, either.

I do feel a bit sorry for Nogrod, because no one seems to have understood his Day 1 role-playing at all. I don't suspect him for that...that was quite amusing. It's quite easy to use someone's role to get a person lynched, so I'm definitely wary of all the people harping on Nogrod's being cobblerish because of his role.

I still feel there's something wrong with him, though (though I also now find myself agreeing with him some, on some of the points he's made about phantom and Fea)...

My baddie list:

Nogrod
Kath
phantom
Fea
Gwath
Nerwen

I feel good about Shasta, Eonwe, Lommy, and Greenie. I feel pretty good about Nilp and Mith. Not sure about Brinn. Did I miss anyone? (Other than Groin.)

I have this feeling like it's either Nogrod or phantom (which is very foolish, but there it is), and right now I think it's Nogrod. His arguments against phantom, though good, seem fabricated. They do not seem like pure Nogrod suspicion. He seems to be taking the easy route too much for him.

Hah, look at me acting like I know people. Hah!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I found more time than I thought I had. Curious, that.

Why is Fea so adamant about keeping phantom alive? Two possibilities strike:

Then there the third - which is the one I work on. The Phantom (like Anguirel and a few others) is just so much fun that you want him around as long as possible even if you think they are as guilty as sin. Those who have a problem with this well, try to be more entertaining . Not that I think he is particularly iffy. Far more odd to my mind is Lommy saying I am not being silly when she was earlier sounding off about how stupid lynchin Kit was.... which for good or ill was my idea....

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

It is the quiet who get lynched and the great who get killed in the night (yes you may quote me on that )!

This is debatable, but I won't pursue the issue.

[Durelin]

I must vote, because I'm going out to lunch-dinner.

++Nogrod because he feels the worst. My brain tells me nasty things about others, but the most *feeling* is involved with him.

[the phantom]

Nog- if you are innocent then listen carefully.

Lalaith would not look like the Seer to a Phantom-Wolf.

If she had died and been found to be the Seer, it would've been a stretch for anyone to take her posts and apply them to me as a WW. Her vote for me has an extremely pronounced air of "don't take this to mean he's a WW". Read her posts again please. If she would have died and been the Seer that is the way most logical people would have interpreted her words.

But you claim she said what she did to avoid detection? That makes no logical sense. If her aim was truly to buy herself another dream then she never would have voted for a discovered WW in the first place. Her goal would have been either to leave a clue or not leave a clue. If she was indeed the Seer discovering a Phantom-Wolf, then she failed miserably at both.

I've been in villages with her before. She's much smarter than that, and I know it. And I think you do too. You really seem to be grasping at straws, and I can't figure why.

I have a guess of course, but I'd rather not mention it.

[the phantom]

Okay, so I guess that everyone is just wanting to leave Form-Cobbler to the Assassin tonight since there have been no votes for him?

[Mithalwen]

Phantom darling, want to keep you around so will do what I have to do..

[the phantom]

You are really a dear, Mith.

I should write a Downer Article just for you. I already made another headline for you, but I think you deserve more.

And I still think that the Kitanna idea was brilliant. Not necessarily doing it (I could've gone either way on that), but just even bringing it up. If it weren't for the fact that so much has happened today I think we'd be focusing quite a bit on reactions to that. Only the greats can do something useful on Day 1.

[Nogrod]

I just came back from town (too much packing crowds there...) and thought to start actually thinking about the culprits before the girls come when I found this.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I have a guess of course, but I'd rather not mention it.

Now sorry if I don't follow this. Or is this something like one of your famous "traps" you're known you like to set? Well it backfired I suppose if it was one for I'm no cobbler or wolf who would like to share secret alliances. I'm after the baddies. And I'm no gifted either you should not dare to mention aloud if you're an innocent.

Originally Posted by tp

Okay, so I guess that everyone is just wanting to leave Form-Cobbler to the Assassin tonight since there have been no votes for him?

That might be a good idea as he doesn't seem wolvish but mainly cobblerish. And that would narrow down our choices toDay. Well, if the cobbler-assassin is wishing or willing to do that. I mean s/he might have other thoughts - maybe looking at you tp or me, or anyone.

But to be frank, yes, I'd suggest s/he takes Form the next Night.

[Nogrod]

Girls came in. Their turn. Sorry.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You are really a dear, Mith.

I should write a Downer Article just for you. I already made another headline for you, but I think you deserve more.

Why Mr Phantom, how charming... If you do I shall read it ....

Yes.. but left to my own devices I would still suspect Lommy for her double think .. otherwise...