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12-06-2008, 11:50 AM | #41 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Based on the limited information supplied (basically from Gandalf), it was Saruman. Everything else is conjecture, which is fine I suppose; but looking at the evidence, nothing else makes sense. It was not a 'shadow' of Saruman, but his actual physical manifestation, because the horses were driven off. Unless, of course, the horses were 'spooked' by a spook.
Please, resume your arguments.
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12-06-2008, 11:57 AM | #42 | |
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12-06-2008, 12:06 PM | #43 |
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And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...
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12-06-2008, 12:11 PM | #44 |
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One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk. What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.
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12-06-2008, 08:08 PM | #45 | ||
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Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?
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Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.
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12-06-2008, 08:21 PM | #46 | |
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One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible! Could the power of Saruman be measured to such an extent as to rule out a relatively basic operation as creating a spirit of himself in other lands? Last edited by Mansun; 12-06-2008 at 08:30 PM. |
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12-06-2008, 08:30 PM | #47 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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And given your statement, I would posit that the old man is actually Fengel. Possible? But of course. Prove that it's not him while I get ready to add another possibility to the list.
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12-06-2008, 08:37 PM | #48 | |
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12-06-2008, 08:54 PM | #49 | |||
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Had they known it to be Saruman, they would not have asked Gandalf (which they too confused as possibly just some old man) who it may have been. Even Gandalf does not know with any certainty, as he says something like, 'then I guess you must have seen Saruman.' Maybe this creature that they saw is a one-shot, much like Bombadil but with much less documentation. Of course I'm just arguing the other side. Quote:
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12-06-2008, 08:57 PM | #50 | ||
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After Theodred's murder (Saruman sent the force of orcs to the Fords of Isen with strict orders to kill Theodred), Erkenbrand assumed control of Rohan's forces and sent word to Meduseld for more troops, but he was denied by Theoden (at Grima's insistence). In essence, thereafter Eomer basically broke a royal edict by attacking the Orcs who held Merry and Pippin captive. He was then arrested on Grima's initiative for defying the King's orders. It is obvious that anyway laying hands on Saruman's person would have been at least imprisoned, or more likely summarily executed by the order of Theoden. In any case, there is little evidence in the text that Saruman wandered about Rohan in spirit form, and if there is, I should like to see it.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 12-07-2008 at 12:16 AM. |
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12-06-2008, 09:46 PM | #51 | |
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Personally, I find the HoME books interesting but not necessarily a good guide to what Tolkien's final thoughts in all matters might be, but there is a passage in "The Treason of Isengard" that has been influential in my thinking on this matter:
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12-07-2008, 08:05 AM | #52 | |
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If Theoden was poisoned, it could have killed him given his age. And how did Gandalf manage to wear off the poison by his appearance alone in the Golden Hall? Whatever you are ascertaining above, give more detail please. Quote the full text from the source. Last edited by Mansun; 12-07-2008 at 08:41 AM. |
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12-07-2008, 08:37 AM | #53 | |
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On the other hand, I was reading the FotR chapter, "A Journey in the Dark," where the Fellowship are attacked by those wolf creatures. These are physical creatures, as they are harmed by physical weapons, but disappear at morning's light, and so may be more phantom-like. This, to me, is some evidence that such things such as phantoms can exist, though it still does not explain Saruman's appearance.
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12-07-2008, 09:27 AM | #54 |
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The quote provided by Ibri is in my opinion of great importance, as we see that neither Tolkien nor his son seem to have had a clear idea about what the old man represented, although indeed it does seem to point to a physical presence of Saruman. However, it also shows that a phantom, or a projection of Gandalf are possibilities.
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12-07-2008, 04:49 PM | #55 | |||
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12-08-2008, 01:32 PM | #56 | |
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But pharmacopeia doesn't seem like Saruman's thing, but more like something Radagast would use. Could it have been more of the psychic drugging, like the mental abuse a torturer uses to break the will of a captive - nothing physical, just relentless words that darken the listener's skies? If it truly were a physical poison, then how did Gandalf cure such a thing, as we don't see him curing anything, even the Black Breath, later in the Houses of Healing?
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12-08-2008, 08:09 PM | #57 | ||
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From a strictly deductive standpoint, I don't think any magic or Sarumanic incorporeal manifestations were necessary in debilitating Theoden.
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12-08-2008, 10:30 PM | #58 | |
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Saruman may not have been into the use of poisons on his enemies, but apparently, Grima was. At the very beginning of "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" in UT, Tolkien writes:
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12-09-2008, 09:11 PM | #59 | |
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Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...
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12-09-2008, 10:05 PM | #60 | ||
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CSteefel
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Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time. As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.
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12-09-2008, 10:53 PM | #61 | |
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But I agree with you, the Palantiri were not astral projectors. What one viewed in the stones could be manipulated -- as Sauron did to Denethor -- but Sauron did not jump out on the Steward in his room in the White Tower.
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12-10-2008, 12:05 AM | #62 | |
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I can find nothing about the Palantir working as "projectors", as you mentioned. Obviously they could be used to see, suggesting that Saruman could have spied on the three travelers (in the UT, there is a detailed description of how Denethor might have seen what was happening in Rohan, including "zoom ins"). But any form of communication/projection of an image seems to require a second Palantir. But as you also suggest, there is good evidence that Saruman had not used the Palantir recently, fearing rightfully that as soon as he did so, Sauron would appear. This certainly would have been the last thing he wanted, since it would have presumably given away the fact that he had organized a party to try to obtain the ring for himself. On the subject of phantoms or visions, there is the case of where Sauron in the 1st Age managed to fool Gorlim, one of Barahir's group in Dorthonion, by presenting a vision or phantom of his wife Eilinel. This would indicate that a Maiar sorcerer is capable of such "magic", so maybe Saruman is as well. However, this doesn't really explain what would be Saruman's motivation for presenting a vision to the three travellers--what purpose is accomplished?
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12-11-2008, 09:12 AM | #63 |
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He walks very softly and carries a big stick
I don't have my book in front of me, but in the Chapter 'The Voice of Saruman,' we learn that Saruman has the ability to just 'pop up.' Reread the text where he is summoned by Gandalf. It goes something like, 'everyone is astonished as Saruman just appears, as no one heard him approach.'
So, by whatever means, if he can show up in a 'poof' kind of way for a company that includes humans, hobbits, horses, a dwarf, an elf, some ents and a white wizard - and be there physically - surely he can do it in reverse, and just poof out. And if I remember my AD&D correctly, this is some feat, as Rangers are rarely surprised...Peter Jackson's ranger not withstanding.
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12-11-2008, 10:30 AM | #64 |
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Ok, that is a legitimate argument, although you must admit there is a difference between disappearing from an open field and appearing at a rail. In one case it's just a step away from not being seen in the other many.
But yeah, the astonishment of those present does remind of the old man's disappearence, it does all in all point towards Saruman as the culprit that night. But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...
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12-11-2008, 10:51 AM | #65 |
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Maybe he would if he sensed another Power -- Gandalf -- in the area. I've always wondered why Saruman seemed completely unsurprised by Gandalf's presence on the steps of Orthanc after the battle. Did he have no news that Gandalf had died in Moria? Enquiring minds want to know...
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12-11-2008, 11:03 AM | #66 | |||
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And regarding the palantir allowing one to 'hologram' to another place...I just can't get the image out of my mind of Saruman being in the shower and Sauron popping into the bathroom.
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12-11-2008, 11:32 AM | #67 |
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Perhaps the old man was neither Gandalf or Saruman. Maybe, just maybe, it was C.S. Lewis poking around Middle-earth in search of good place names for his Narnia series.
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12-11-2008, 11:54 AM | #68 |
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But his role in Middle-Earth was embodied in Treebeard.
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12-12-2008, 04:00 PM | #69 |
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Or perhaps for That Hideous Strength, since he more or less plagiarizes the term "Numinor."
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12-12-2008, 05:24 PM | #70 | |
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For what it's worth, the quote I alluded to previously is:
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12-12-2008, 11:28 PM | #71 |
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Good allusion here. I think it does lend further credence to the idea that it was Saruman, although whether himself (I doubt it) or a phantom/vision is not 100% clear...
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12-13-2008, 06:57 AM | #72 | |
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alatar, the detail I noticed in that quote is the cloak:
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12-13-2008, 01:23 PM | #73 | |
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The harder issue to explain was his reason for leaving so rapidly, and my only hypothesis there is that he thought he had found himself within a bad joke, and so decided to get out as soon as possible. "An Elf, a Ranger and a Dwarf are sitting in a forest..."
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12-13-2008, 01:28 PM | #74 | |
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Gandalf noticed that Saruman's cloak was no longer white while in Orthanc (just prior to his imprisonment atop the tower); it was, rather, a dazzling array of all colors.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 12-13-2008 at 02:30 PM. |
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12-13-2008, 02:41 PM | #75 |
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Precisely.
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12-13-2008, 03:13 PM | #76 |
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Another neat parallel in the story is that Saruman's robes actually eventually turn gray (muddy, bespattered, torn) after Gandalf's become white. Sort of mirroring one's ascension and one's decline in a literal/visual manner rather than merely figuratively.
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