HOB - Chapters into Scenes Weekly

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Question: In the film, should these be two individual scenes divided by a nights intervention, or should they be placed into one scene without the passage of time?

You remember that Bilbo invited Gandalf to tea in the book. And then as soon as he got inside, he wondered to himself, "Why on earth did I invite him to tea?" I wonder if this might be a good opportunity to make the time change. Bilbo runs into his door, shuts it, and then as he's pattering down the hall, mutters that line half aloud and scarcely has he quit saying it than we cut to a new scene of Bilbo at the tea table preparing to sit down. Before he can, he hears the knock of the first dwarf...

Are we permitted to write what we think might be nice for the dailogue?

[Sauron the White]

That is a very good idea Folwren. It would work quite well and we avoid two back to back scenes in the exact same place with much the same characters but broken over two days.

And by all means dialogue is fine here. I would love to see what you come up with.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Has some thought been given to the above discussed prologue
including a young Thorin seing the dragon attack while outside
Erebor, and then before "An Unexpected Party" an older Thorin's
interaction with Gandalf with the dwarf seeking Gandalf's help (as in
Unfinished Tales, but perhaps at the Prancing Pony- for less
confusion for movie only people), then going to Gandalf/Bilbo?

[Sauron the White]

What songs would you put in or keep out from the Dwarves at Bag-end?

[zxcvbn]

From what I've heard PJ wants to incorporate the White Council subplot so as to let us see 'the big picture' that was happening in Middle-earth while Bilbo and co went off on their merry adventure. As such, I think the intro should be like that of FOTR.

1.Gandalf/Galadriel narratting the fall of Sauron and his rise in Dol Guldur. Gandalf dsicussing how Saruman has been blocking attempts to drive out Sauron (foreshadowing Saruman's fall) and commenting on the dangerous state of the North. The meeting Thorin at Bree. Thorin asks his help and they start plotting.

2.Second intro, sorta like 'Concerning Hobbits' in FOTR EE. Bilbo narrating something like 'Every journey has a first step' and 'In a hole in a ground lived a Hobbit' and we cut to Bilbo somiking and Gandalf arrives and so on. Thorin comes, explains his story(with flashbacks scene).

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What songs would you put in or keep out from the Dwarves at Bag-end?

I think that there mountain song should be shortened, but still kept in. And I absolutely love the Crack the Plates song, so that should most certainly be in there.

[Sauron the White]

In the first chapter there are two songs - the crack the plates tune which is light and whimsical and then the Dwarves all play their instruments and play the song which starts "Far over the misty Mountains cold......"

In the book, they are very close together. Would two songs so early be too much here? Would the crack the plates tune be better just reduced to a couple of dwarves joking with Bilbo and it only lasts a few lines to get the point across?

And what about musical instruments. Most appear to be fine although I do notice the disturbing appearance of a clarinet. Disturbing because the clarinet was not invented until the 18th century. Would a recorder be a sutiable substitute?

When the Dwarves sing their longer song, how much of it would you retain? And would we see them singing the whole thing or would the music lead into flahbacks illustrating the events of which the Dwarves are singing about.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sauron, good observation on the anachronism of clarinets* in the Dwarven instrumental ensemble. In his essay on musical instruments in Middle-earth (footnote on reed woodwinds), David J. Finnamore writes:

Tolkien called them "clarinets", an instrument not invented until the time of Bach and not in widespread use until the time of Mozart; I take him to mean something like "crumhorns," or "chalumeaus," the medieval ancestor of the clarinet.

The flutes that are named by Tolkien may well be what we now call recorders; I'm not sure he would necessarily have meant a transverse flute, at least not in its modern orchestral form.

If any of you know the BBC version of the Hobbit, what is your opinion of the music used for the Dwarves there? I find it hard to believe that a race with such precise and exquisite craftsmanship would play off-key. In a different system of tonality, yes, that is very much possible, just as we have different systems in various cultures of our world. But I cannot imagine them to be bad musicians! Anyone who takes his instrument on a trip of that magnitude has to be dedicated and must have developed some skill in playing it.

So, to answer your question, I would give the Dwarves a different tonal system, slightly haunting perhaps, to make their music sound foreign to our ears as it must have sounded to Bilbo. And I would like to see the comical "plates" song used in as much length as possible, then have the other one begun a bit later and perhaps echoed at various points of the story, as it fits into the action or flashbacks. It could even have a "leitmotif" function for the Dwarves during the whole movie.


*I suspect that Tolkien chose clarinets just for the fun of having them "hidden" between the walking sticks! That could make for a cute image in a movie.

[Sauron the White]

Estelyn.. thank you for contributing that information. Very valuable and useful.
I cannot help it but when I think of a dwarf playing a clarinet I get this image of Woody Allen in his old world Jewish garb from LOVE AND DEATH playing at Preservation Hall.

I like the idea of the longer Dwarf song coming back throughout sections of the movie. And I think Howard Shore would like that also.

[Kath]

I would love for the film to open with Bilbo smoking outside his front door. The first line of TH is so iconic so I'd like it to start with that.

That said, I actually think the idea of starting it with Gollum losing the Ring is good, except of course that he doesn't know that he's lost it yet. However, as they're going to have to match what happens in this film to what happened in FotR they may be able to work around this. For example, Gollum discovers that he's lost his Ring, Bilbo picks it up, Gollum leaves his island to come look for it and finds Bilbo instead who is carrying Sting and therefore has some leverage over Gollum. So it could be possible, though even so I'd rather it start quietly in the Shire.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I didn't think that the BBC adaptation of TH was very good... but thats just me... I think that the Dwarves need to have a more haunting tune as well, but I am crazy I suppose!

[The Saucepan Man]

Apologies for being late to the discussion, bu please bear with me while I share my thoughts on the introduction.

My preference would be for the film to start with the Bilbo's encounter with Gandalf, followed by the opening credits and then leading into the arrival of the Dwarves.

However, I recognise that it is fairly standard nowadays for films to open with an 'action' scene and that it is therefore a part of audience expectation (I blame the James Bond films ). If this convention is followed, Smaug's attack on the Lonely Mountain is a possibility (with Smaug never fully shown), although I tend to agree that this is probably best left for the Dwarves to tell in flashback. I don't think that Gollum is a sufficiently central character in this tale for his loss of the Ring to form the opening scene (nor, indeed, is there enough 'meat' to it, I think, to fulfil this role).

One further possibility is to have Gandalf's covert entry into Dol Guldur and meeting with Thrain in Sauron's dungeons as the opening scene. It is central to the plot, as it is the means by which Ganadalf obtains the Map and the Key. And, while it is not 'action packed', it would be sufficiently tense and have enough action to make a good opening scene. Gandalf's identity could be concealed until he reaches Thrain and draws back his hood, adding some mystery to the scene. If there was time, the scene could then cut to Bree many years later and Gandalf's meeting with Thorin, culminating in Gandalf agreeing to find him a burglar.

Cut to opening credits, leading into a blissfully unaware Bilbo smoking his pipe (would that be allowed?) outside Bag End and Gandalf's arrival.

[Finduilas]

I like your last idea.

[Sauron the White]

Lots of very good ideas here. Looks like many want us to see some of the historical background scenes which I would love.

Does anyone have definite ideas on how the scene in CH2 with the trolls should be presented. Heavy? Lighter touch? What role should Gandalf play if different from the book? Should there be real impending danger bordering on possible death? Talking purses? Do the trolls have the same names and carry on conversations?

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Does anyone have definite ideas on how the scene in CH2 with the trolls should be presented. Heavy? Lighter touch? What role should Gandalf play if different from the book? Should there be real impending danger bordering on possible death? Talking purses? Do the trolls have the same names and carry on conversations?

I think it should have a somewhat light/comical touch. The Dwarves trying to fight the trolls and getting caught with next to no effort. Maybe a scene showing a dwarf boasting about his sharp senses just before being 'sacked'. The trolls speak to each other, but in some dumb-sounding, beast-like language translated by subtitles.

[Folwren]

I think they should speak English. And have the names Tolkien gave to 'em. And it should be humorous. Not necessarily a talking purse...that may be taking it a little far...although I'd love to see it.

[Sauron the White]

Walking the line between actual danger and somewhat light humor could be a way to go. To make it work, both Bilbo and the Dwarves have to believe they are in danger so it cannot be too light or humorous. Maybe some of that can come with Gandalf who observes it all with a slightly cocked eyebrow ready to step in if things go too far. I would get rid of the purse and its ability to talk but perhaps substitute some sort of auditory alarm that would serve the same purpose. The effect is not quite so cartoonish.

[Nazgûl-king]

A lot in this scene depends on whether or not they are keeping with the tone of the book or making it more mature. If they go for the more mature idea, then I doubt the trolls will talk much if at all, or that there will be the purse. I think the trolls will talk a little bit though, since in one scene in the Fellowship film when Bilbo is telling the story of this adventure to a bunch of hobbit children he mentions them arguing over them. If they decide to keep the look they had for the stone trolls, then I think we have an idea of what the trolls and the location will look like.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It mat have been Shippey who suggested a gradually
increasingly serious threat by the dangers posed to
Thorin & Co. in TH. If that's the case then it could make
sense to make the troll episode fairly lighthearted,
although I must confess I've been a bit discordant to
hear their cockney accents (in light of later LOTR).

Btw, I've been listening to a series of Tolkien based
lecture tapes about fantasy literature I got at Barnes
and Noble Bookstores where the lecturer argues for
the trolls speech being a deliberate class separation
by Tolkien.

[Thenamir]

Do forgive me as well for being late to this discussion, especially as I was one of the first posters to express some interest in carrying it on.

There is merit to all of the proposed prologue/openings, but there is a part of the Tolkien fan and purist in me that wants to see the opening moments look something like this:

After the last of the interminable trailers for upcoming features, and the obligatory New Line logo, the screen fades to black for a few moments. Quietly, almost imperceptibly (i.e. just louder than the crunching popcorn from the moviegoer next to you), the score begins -- soft strings play a theme not unlike the Shire theme from FOTR but slower, more muted, as if not quite awake yet, as we see the "New Line Cinema presents" and the "A Wingnut Films Production", then the screen fades up.

The view is from aloft, flying (less like a plane, more like a hot-air balloon) over a lush green countryside in the twilight before sunrise. As we drift along, seeing the mist hanging low in the valleys, the music and the light rise in tandem and we begin to descend and zoom in on a small village town. Now, purposefully, you can see that we are coming in from a great distance to a particular door -- a round door in the side of a hill. And as the music reaches a peak-point, the sunlight breaks over the hill, illumining the hill and the door, and you hear the voice of Ian Holm (or whoever plays Bilbo) speak aloud,

"In a hole in the ground...there lived a Hobbit."

Cue the title card, pan around to the window, where you see Bilbo taking a cup of tea to his desk, a large red book open to the first words of "There and Back Again"

Finish the rest of the opening credits however you want, but you MUST have those famous words!

[skip spence]

^Great post, Thenamir. I could see it play out crisp and clear in my head and have nothing to add. That would be a great opening scene.

As for the trolls, I agree with the posters who opted for a more humourous approach. Of course, the party are in grave danger and it should show, but if the director can't see the great potential for comedy in having three cockney trolls arguing how to best cook a bunch of dwarves he should pursue a different carreer.

And isn't it a known fact that orcses, football hooligans and other likeminded scum speak English with a cockney accent?

[Nazgûl-king]

Are we still doing this? If so what part are we one now?

[Olórin the White]

no idea if this is still has interest in being pursued as a topic, but I figured I'd add my two cents. Most people seem to be a for an opening action sequence and/or background history (like FotR), however I disagree for several reasons.
A) I doubt PJ and del Toro will want to follow the same pattern they did for FotR, simply because every filmmaker wants to prove that he can do something fresh, and not fall back on a formula that worked in the past. (However, I will admit that PJ did love his use of either flashback or prologue type beginning to each LotR, so if they are trying to make The Hobbit fit that, perhaps they would indeed do something similar. It is hard to judge.)
B) From a character standpoint, this story is about Bilbo Baggins, he is 'the hobbit' afterall, and his sudden involvement in the events of the Dwarves is very bewildering and unexpected to him (hence 'the unexpected party). He has simply lived his quiet life in the Shire, and I believe that is how we should be introduced to the tone of the movie...the story of 'the Hobbit is told largely through his eyes, and therefore I sense that the movie should also be told through his eyes as well.
To add to that, we as the audience will understand his character arc better because we have followed a similar learning curve in terms of information discovered along the way.
Now, you might argue the same about Frodo and LotR, and that the book starts out largely dealing with the peace and quiet of the Shire, but there is just such an immense amount of history that needed to be set up (which isn't there in the Hobbit to nearly the same extent), and really, the 'lord' of the rings was Sauron, therefore he needed to be introduced at the outset.

Therefore, I think the film should start with Bilbo peacefully enjoying life in the Shire. I liked the idea someone had for the opening of flying in over the shire, and coming around and into Bag End where Bilbo is beginning to pen 'there and back again'. However, that was already shown at the beginning of FotR:EE, so in terms of film continuity that unfortunately wouldn't work. (unless they use that same footage and use it as a recurring theme of Bilbo writing it down and occassionally narrating the story...I've heard rumor that Ian Holm might have a role as a narrator in 'The Hobbit'?) That could be interesting. It is just difficult because what Bilbo is writing in the EE is really the prologue to LotR (Concerning Hobbits), rather than the opening to The Hobbit.
What I would love to see actually is the camera flying over a map of Middle Earth, revealing Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain and other important landmarks we will see in the movie, with the voice of Bilbo in the background. Cue title card as the camera pans up to reveal that the map was actually in Bag End (very much out of FotR:EE) and have Bilbo beginning to write out The Hobbit, which of course naturally leads us to the opening scenes of Gandalf and the dwarves and the Unexpected Party).

[Sauron the White]

Nazgul King - There was never really much enthusiasm here for the project.
I went over to thehobbitblog.com and started a thread there doing the same thing and there are over 1,900 posts in six months. We have finished with HOBBIT and are laying out the bones of the second film. Try it and see what you think.