The Mouth of Sauron

[Måns]

'So!' said the Messenger. 'Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of thee at whiles, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distanceBut this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish nets before the feet of Sauron the Great.

RotK, the Black gate opens, page 192.

With that settled, i think we can agree that he was allowed to call his master by his right name. Anyway, what do we know more of this chap, him being quite a nasty fellow excepted? He was still a man, and he was still living in a very high degree. His status on Mordor then? He rose quickly die to his sourcery and went to Sauron because he was enamoured by the evil knowledge. He is said to have known much of Sauron's mind, growing ever higher in his favour due to hsi cunning. Not to mention that he was crueler than any orc, this makes him seem like the second man in Mordor, especially because he ahs got his free will left. He was an emissary, and in medieval times, those were high born nobles, a very important position, not entrusted to anybody, I would think taht he was considered above the Nazgûl who were simply doing the dirty work for their Master, looking for Rings and commanding armies. Just like Denethor said, he was a spear in Sauron's hand. He must have ahd some military importance in the Black tower since he is said to be 'lieutenant of the Black tower, probably eh was teh second in command. To make a clarification, he was responsible for the war at a strategic level while the Nazgûl ran the operational and tactical levels. Look at him as a Chief of Staff and close advisor to the Dark lord.
What pseaks for this theory is that the Lord of Angmar, A.K.A. Chief of the NazgÛls was his ablest military commander, by which I assume he means field commander, not staff officer.

What speaks for the Nazgul is a few things, chiefly uttered by their opponents. Pippin syas at the battle of the Morannon: If I just could get a blow at that ugly lieutenant I would almost keep pace with Merry's achievement." (or something to that effect) Notice the almost, speaking for their rank. Moreover, Gandalf makes some hints about their status, but all this is very vague.

What strikes me now is what otehr roles he might have played? For example, the Messenger that came to Dain seemed pretty nasty, could it possibly be the Mouth of Sauron?

Måns

[Balin999]

With that settled, i think we can agree that he was allowed to call his master by his right name.

That was never questioned.

[Nils]

I would think that he was considered above the Nazgûl who were simply doing the dirty work for their Master, looking for Rings and commanding armies.

I don't know about that. In Letters, Tolkien stated that by the end of the Third Age Sauron believed himself to be Morgoth.

This is an important clue because it links the Mouth of Sauron to another character. The character I am referring to is Gothmog. One of the meanings of the name Gothmog is "Voice of Goth" (Morgoth). I believe this reference can be found in The Lost Road and Other Writings.

In other words, it is possible that the Mouth of Sauron = Gothmog. Since Gothmog is second in command to the W-K and by this time the W-K is dead, the Mouth of Sauron would be the head of Sauron's forces.

As to the Mouth of Sauron's identity, there are a couple of possibilities mentioned in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

[Måns]

Except for that purely linguistic riddle there is no evidence for it while the little list compiled by me above speaks against it. In the very text about Gothmog in RotK it says that he was the lieutenant of Morgul (indicating that he was close to the chief nazgul, second in command in fact) while the Mouth of Sauron was lieutenant of Barad dur. Tha is a remarkable difference that says everything we need to know.

Måns

[Legolas]

I don't see how anyone can really question the Mouth of Sauron's "status" in comparison to the Ringwraiths, especially expecting to find some sort of answer - he is not under or over them, really. He serves a completely different role. Lt. of Barad-dur he is, but Barad-dur too serves a different function than the [mainly] military outposts of Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul. He was more a Secretary of State than a Five-Star General, it seems.

The Mouth was just that - the 'mouth' of Sauron. His chief spokesman. The Nazgul were his hand (he did have but nine fingers in the Third Age) - with the Nine Servants he stretched out over Middle-earth in search of the Ring. If there is any answer to be had, I would say the Nazgul were more instrumental in Sauron's cause. The Mouth was more of an added touch of evil as opposed to being absolutely necessary (as far as we know). For what it's worth, Sauron himself could've done the work the Mouth did by himself.

[ July 15, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

In other words, it is possible that the Mouth of Sauron = Gothmog.

If this is true, then the poor bugger would have been both Lieutenant of Barad-dur and of Minas Morgul, at the same time. I would not have thought that this would have been the same person. As Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, Gothmog would primarily have been an overseer of the war machine there. The Mouth, as Lieutant of Barad-dur, was second-in-command of Mordor. As Legolas rightly says, the Nazgul were special agents as well as wielders of great force that reported directly to Sauron; his personal Secret Service and a driving force of his armies. They were not administrators.

[Finwe]

Quite true. One of the reasons that Sauron probably used the Mouth at all was to remain distanced from his troops. You tend to fear what you do not see every day, and not seeing this Dark Lord at all, but hearing about him like that would probably inspire more fear than actually hearing him and speaking to him every day.

[Måns]

I would have to disagree. I have never stated him to eb a five star general, only chief of staff. His job is normally to lay out the main plan for a campaign or operation, for example whether the main assault would fall upon the Osgiliath or Cair Andros. That is called strategy. Commanders ahve field responsibilites and are in charge of tactics, for example whcih troops that are to be used where and when to achieve the maximum effect and making plans for and coordinating the work o fhis immediate subordinates. For example, a modern divisional commander controls his battlaions while at a higher level the corps commander direct the divisions in the same way. Usually, you are first a field commander and then advance to the staff, if that is your carrier. I think that the Mouth of Sauron was a chief of staff since there must have been one, a very trusted one and who could have been suited better for this position with his great knowledgeof the ways of the army of Gondor. Moreover, he is the "Lieutenant" of Barad dur which we seem to have to interpret as second in command and since the boss of the Black tower logicly is commander in chief, his subordinate must be second in command. Since he is not a field commander, to our knowledge, he must have ahd staff duties. And, I ask you, are there any other possible candidates?

Måns

[Balin999]

Quite true. One of the reasons that Sauron probably used the Mouth at all was to remain distanced from his troops [...]

That is a convincing point of view. But, I'll repeat my theory here: Sauron could not talk to living men. (At least after he had lost the ring.)
So, he needed someone to communicate with his troops/ anyone who had business with him.
Again, this may be wrong, but I can't remember any scene in LotR where Sauron talks openly. Any views on that?

[Finwe]

That's also true. It would be a bit scary talking to a big fiery eye-ball! Even for an Orc!

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe that Sauron did most of his command through his thought, especially to the Nazgul. It is similar in fashion, I believe (though I hate to compare the two), to Eru Illuvatar's communication with Manwe Sulimo in Manwe's own thoughts. I doubt that the "Eye of Sauron" (as it was portrayed physically in the movies) would do much talking even if it desired to.

[Finwe]

That sounds right. Especially at the end of Return of the King, during the Battle of the Morannon, when Sauron's "thought" was turned aside from his armies and bent fully upon what was happening in the Sammath Naur, his armies "faltered." So it was Sauron's thought alone that drove them onwards. Once he was concentrating completely on getting the Nazgul to the Sammath Naur in time, the Orc Armies had absolutely no idea what to do and were easily mowed down by the Army of the West.

[Kuruharan]

Hmm...I have not looked at this thread in a little while, well, okay, a long while.

Sauron could not talk to living men. (At least after he had lost the ring.)
So, he needed someone to communicate with his troops/ anyone who had business with him.

Why not? I thought that we had already established that he had a body. If he had a body one would presume that he had a physical mouth of his own.

Having the Mouth (as opposed to a mouth) was probably a status thing to reinforce the view of his divinity. Deities are too busy with other things to actually bother speaking themselves to their minions. (Especially when they are not really deities but are desperately trying to impress people that they are.)

I can't remember any scene in LotR where Sauron talks openly. Any views on that?

We have a grand total of one scene where he obliquely appears. I don't think that one could limit Sauron's communication abilities based on the palantir scene.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Quite right, Kuruharan. Even if Sauron didn't consider himself rightfully a god-king (which he obviously does), lords do not announce themselves. The Mouth of Sauron is the Dark Lord's herald in the medieval sense, and he is accorded a herald's protection. His job is to save Sauron the trouble of stating his position to unimportant enemies.

Sending his herald instead of going in person to meet with Aragorn and his generals is a studied insult. It sends the message that here is "a contemptible little army", which is completely beneath his attention. That herald's abuse of his inviolability in insulting his master's enemies is therefore unnecessary, although it serves to emphasise just how hopeless the Dark Lord and his servants considered Aragorn's position.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I've made the comparison before, between Sauron and Morgoth. But the Mouth of Sauron is to Sauron what Sauron was to Morgoth. A commander of a fortress and sorceror, but hardly the military power. That means the Nazgul are to Sauron what the Balrogs were to Morgoth, of course, after seeing that some of the Balrogs ran like girls after the great wars, Sauron decided to bend his team of terrors to his will. As for the Mouth of Sauron, much like Sauron himself was once, he is favored because he has an ambitious mind of his own, and his own aims, all capable of being done under his master's rule.

The Mouth of Sauron certainly had plans, he figured he'd sidle into control of all the West and take up abode in Isengard, and maybe even deal with Saruman himself for his master.

Only those beings who respect and fear Sauron never referred to him by name, and since most of his tools did both. But someone like the Mouth, with no respect for anyone after his ages of life at the top, wouldn't have a problem with it, just like Saruman didn't have a problem with it.

Maybe the Silm can be linked to the LOTR in a sort of 'History repeats itself' sort of thing. Who prepared Angband for Morgoth's return? Sauron. So who prepared and directed the reconstruction of Barad Dur? The Mouth of Sauron.

Just some thoughs.

[Osse]

May I just ask a question? When Sauron had efficiently corrupted all nine of the Nazgul, would he come back into possession of the Nine. I was always under the impression that he recovered them, a line in the Lotr was something along the lines of: "The Seven are accounted for, the Nine Sauron holds..." I thought that the Nine were a great tool, once you have finished making Ringwraiths, you get the bartering piece back.

Is it then possible that the Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenorean who Sauron has given one of the Nine or Seven. If he was already absorbed in the Black Arts, he could have increased his life span before receiving the ring put this on top of an ordinary Numenorean's lifespan and you've got one old Mouth. The man may either not know of his peril, or be too proud to accept that he will become a Wraith.

Just an Idea (hehe) If anyone can either confirm or deny whether he recovered the Nine it'd be much appreciated.

Osse

[ September 19, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Kuruharan]

Only those beings who respect and fear Sauron never referred to him by name, and since most of his tools did both. But someone like the Mouth, with no respect for anyone after his ages of life at the top, wouldn't have a problem with it, just like Saruman didn't have a problem with it.

What? Of all people the Mouth was in the least position to ever give Sauron anything like cheek. His position was the most vulnerable because he was the closest to the source of danger (Sauron). He could be toppled and killed in a moment. He must have kept his place by being incredibly obsequious. He could not have been relaxed in his position. Respect might not be a good word for his feeling toward Sauron, but I think that fear was a virtual must.

Saruman was a different case because he had not spent centuries in servitude to Sauron.

[Balin999]

The Seven are accounted for, the Nine Sauron holds...

I think that with this it is meant that Sauron had the control over the Nine via the Nazgul. I don't think that he had taken back their rings. Without them, he wouldn't have an instrument to control their spirit. But then, how could his armies falter after he bent his mind on getting his one ring? That doesn't make sense.
As for the Mouth having a ring himself, I think we have agreed earlier that he had no ring for himself.

[Finwe]

It clearly says in RotK that the Mouth of Sauron was no wraith, but a living man. So the possibility of him being a Ringwraith is ruled out, or even a possessor of one of the Nine Rings. Looking at his so-called "term of service," I'm thinking that it was quite long, so if he was indeed an eventual possessor of one of the Rings, it would have corrupted him and en-wraithened him (yes, I know I'm making up words) by the time of the meeting with the Captains of the West.

[Osse]

Did the Seven have different powers of enslavement to the nine, or was it just the fact that Dwarves are less easily dominated?

If so, could he have been given one of the remaining Seven?

[Finwe]

It was that Dwarves are inherently less capable of being dominated. Since they have such stubborn natures, all the Seven did to them was increase their love of gold and riches toa reckless level, which ended up causing most of their deaths.

[Balin999]

Osse,
I advise you to read through the first page of this thread, where the question of the difference between the Nine and the Seven has been partly discussed. You may find answers to your questions there and keep this thread from repeating itself.

Now, just in reply to the people saying that the Mouth of Sauron is completely 'annihilated'/'overtaken' by Sauron ... then why is he so ambitious? I can't quote here, but it clearly is said "... and the lands ... will be given to a lieutenant of Sauron, but one more trusty ..." ... he would be that lieutenant.

According to me, The Mouth is a Black Numenorean (which is - I think- a gathering of three tribes : those 2nd age numenoreans who weren't elf-friends and who had bases in the South, and became Sauron's when the third age began, the 3re age Gondoreans who became evil - Umbar, remnanets of the Kinstrifers, and similarly, single numenoreans corrupted (like Denethor would have become had he been less might of mind).

The Mouth is probably of one of the first two, entering service with Sauron and practising black arts to rise and to stay alive. If he received anything from Sauron, it would be aid in those arts, or a lesser artifact, not a ring of power.

The Mouth is nothing but an enormously ambitious, highly skilled underling of Sauron, probably rather a regent of the South-Kingdoms (a liasion with the rulers of Khand etc?) than a war-leader.

[Telchar]

Well, I did some digging in some of the very old end very forgotten annals of Barad-dur. It seems that the mouth of Sauron was actually a pretty sweet guy, his friends both liked and trusted him, which you normally would think rare between the servants working in the dark tower. Furthermore its said that he was a great drinking pal, being very thirsty!!! His real name was actually Michael, but all his friends simply called him MICKEY MOUTH


Im just sharing....
Cheers T

[Balin999]

That was very creative, actually, Telchar.
But where are Minnie, Goofy and Pluto?

Pluto would be the Witch-King's steed...

Goofy ... the Balrog?

Minnie ... well, female villains ... not very many in LotR, are they? Maybe Galadriel for the Eorlingas?

Maybe Queen Beruthiel & her cats?

[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tegarend ]

[Halbarad]

Only those beings who respect and fear Sauron never referred to him by name, and since most of his tools did both. But someone like the Mouth, with no respect for anyone after his ages of life at the top, wouldn't have a problem with it, just like Saruman didn't have a problem with it.

I agree with the Keeper with that beings who feared and respected him didn't use his name, Saruman thought of himself as an equal with Sauron. However, the Mouth could hardly not say Sauron's name for fear, as this would undermine his position. I don't think that it was out of disrespect/

It was that Dwarves are inherently less capable of being dominated.

I would also add that this was so because they were created at a time when Morgoth was still very much a threat, and his creations were loose in the world. This is why they were able to withstand Glaurung in his early years, and why that greed and love of gold would be the next best possible thing next ot them becoming dominated by Sauron.

[ September 24, 2003: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Sauron had the nine, Sauron had nine fingers. So when he got his precious One Ring to rule them all back, where would he have worn it? His ring finger is obviously the one missing.

[Balin999]

SO you mean when he got the One back his finger would regrow?
But he just could have kept them somewhere in his "office" in Barad-Dur.
I guess that such an impressing and intimidating spirit/creature/whatever like Sauron would look rather ridiculous with all the shining nine on his fingers, wouldn't he?

[Finwe]

I think we can apply what I like to call "The Voldemort Effect" to this situation too. The entire wizarding world feared Voldemort so much that they wouldn't dare even whisper his name, thinking that somehow that would give him power. The only people who spoke his name openly, Dumbledore, Harry, Hermione, etc. were the ones who stood up to him, and had no fear of him.

The Mouth of Sauron also seemed to me as being quite insolent, even for an arrogant Black Numenorean. When he spoke to the Captains of the West, he seemed to be putting himself forward more than a herald should, and Gandalf, Aragorn, & Co. probably realized that. In his arrogance, he was stepping out of his bounds and trying to lecture (albeit quite pedantically) the Captains to agree with Sauron's terms.

[Balin999]

But there were more people on the evil side that called Voldemort by his name. Of course, those were only the ones who were entirely devoted to him and his most respectful servants.
(And Hermione only calls him by Voldemort in the fifth part.)
But I think that there were many many servants of Sauron who were entirely devoted to him. The Nazgul, for example. Why wouldn't they call him by his name? Or do they?
And I think that in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter people only say "you-know-who" because they just fear it, whereas as far as I remember it is more or less a rule in Mordor not to say Sauron's name.

I remember specifically that the Mouth of Sauron was referred to as one of the Black Numenoreans that turned to Sauron out of free-will. He was a man, like Aragorn, yet evil, and his purpose was to oversee Orthanc in place of Saruman once Sauron won the war. It is not told, however, when he turned or how he or the rest of the Black Numenoreans turned. I believe that was left to be a mystery, however I have my own theory on it. Morgoth used balrogs, fallen maiar as his liutenants; Sauron used greater men, the Numenoreans, as his liutenants. I consider it to be an analogy of a downgrade in the powers at hand. but I could be wrong...
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:24 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Robb ]

[Finwe]

Sauron would have gotten a "kick" out of corrupting the same race of Men that had previously been some of his worst enemies. Poetic justice, he'd like to call it. Both Morgoth and Sauron enjoyed corrupting the fairest things and people into their service, so it makes sense why Sauron would corrupt the Black Numenoreans.

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]...
I am no expert on LOTR's I have never read the Sil, book of lost tales or Tolkiens letters. I know very little about Mos, but I do have somewhat of a theory on why he spoke the name of Sauron and why others of hire rank have also.

1st off... I read in a really old book on magik, (I cant remember the name of it) that if some one knows your true name
it can give them power over you. So I was thinking that maybe Sauron is not the true name of "big flame eye ball master" and more of a description. As someone mentioned before...

"The abominable one or the abhorred one."

2nd off... If that is not the case and it is his true name then maybe the Harry potter theory is the key. Maybe saying his name is just taboo to most beings. Or maybe speaking the name of sauron brings his attention to you, and I don't think that anyone wanted that, orc, uruk, etc...
but Mos is already in a position of constant contact with Sauron so it wouldn't bother him to speak it, as with good old Witch King.

Now as for my theory as to why he forgot his name: Maybe he became obsessed with what sauron was teaching him. Much like Gollum was obsessed with the ring. I don't know how long it took for Sméagol to forget who he was, but it really doesn't say in the books. If Mos is described ad still being ambitious and still after his own agenda then it is obvious that he has not been taken over or lost his identity. I think it was the name that was no longer important to him so he just forgot it. His attentions were so fixed on the dark knowledge that he was receiving that his old name did not matter, and if everyone around you is calling you The Mouth of Sauron a million times a day for a hundred years I am sure anyone would forget there birth name. Especially when it holds no relevance. and if no one else could remember his name, then there was no one who would ever call him by his true name to remind him of it. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]