Do we live in Middle-earth?

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I do

[Losthuniel]

no, NA is not Valinor. it says somewhere that the Valar made Valinor invisible, to prevent men from getting there.
yes, i agree with the "history became legend, legend became myth, and things that should not have been forgotten were." philosophy. as for elves being around today, they most likely all went to Aman.
as to PU, a fantasy trilogy, His Dark Materials(whcih, i just found out 5 seconds ago, is being made into a move by dun dun dun...New Line!), uses this as a main theme. let me see if i can find the quote i want. no i cant. (whre is my HDM trilogy when i need it??)
so it runs along the lines of
"flipping a coin, and until the second it hits the ground, anything is possible. but it can only land one way. when it does hit the ground, instantly another universe springs off, but this time in which the coin landed the OTHER way up"
there, ive gone and made a botch of it. but it would only be for major things, like the outcome of a war, not a coin.
Tolkien stated that we are living in middle earth, but theres some food for thought.

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

A long time ago, in a place not too far away......

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Right you are, Losthuniel.

* bows a greeting *

I've found a website that answers the question about the location of Valinor more eloquently than I:

Originally, the "fashion" of Middle-earth was the flat world of the mediaeval universe. Valinor (the equivalent of Heaven in that the "gods" dwelt there) was physically connected to the rest of the world and could be reached by ship. When Númenor sank "the fashion of the world was changed": the flat world was bent into a round one, with new lands also being created; and Valinor was removed "from the circles of the World", and could no longer be reached by ordinary physical means. The Elves alone were still allowed to make a one-way journey to Valinor along "the Straight Road". (An elven ship on such a journey would grow smaller and smaller with distance until if vanished rather than sinking over the horizon as a human ships do.)

The above quote comes from the following website:
http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolk...ofnumenor.html

The same website also provides an answer to the main question of this thread.

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[Losthuniel]

Thank You, Gandalf *curtseys*.
I'Ve seen that quote somewhere before, and it does make sense.

[GreatWarg]

Ahhhhh, thank you Gandalf the Grey Wander. *bows deeply* Your words of wisdom are justified.

[Ulairi]

Peter Jackson described in an interview, that Tolkien created LotR as a sort of mythology for England. He saw the rich myths of Greece and such and starting thinking. The only real myths in England were King Aurther(Spelling?) and he wanted to add something amazing, that would be with us for ages to come.

[Demloth of Dol Amroth]

greatwarg-where is mordor in your approximations of loaction-

And one could think, if Europe is believed to be where ME once was...And what about the other continents? Well, Unfinished Tales did make several points on lands beyond Mordor, thus Asia! And many people believe England to be where the Shire is. If that is the case, then land has indeed changed.

[Bêthberry]

Grateful thanks to Child of the 7th Age and Gandalf the Grey for their interesting sources.

"I became aware that he was looking fixedly at me. Suddenly he said, 'Of course, you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?'....I think I said: 'No, I don't suppose so any longer.' An alarming conclusion for an old philologist to draw concerning his private amusement. But not one that should puff any one up who considers the imperfections of "chosen instruments", and indeed what sometimes seems their lamentable unfitness for the purpose." (Letter 328 written in 1971)

Child, I have often had the sense that Tolkien was inspired in a particular way. I have found this to be true for several other writers and so am very interested to see this quotation from the Letters, which I don't know. This fits in with Tolkien's comments about sub-creation and one, true myth, I think.

Gandalf , that link provides a focus for many questions and directions to extend discussion. Thank you for it. I particularly liked the acknowledgement that Tolkien used the fictional voice of the translator.Yet even here, I think, there are two meanings to his act of translating


Bethberry

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Although LOTR is fiction, I have heard that Tolien was trying to make a new mythology. I don't think he berlieved it was true, but it's not too idealistic. The people act like we would and it poses the idea that magic might actually be real.

[Leto]

Hoom hmmmm....to start with, I believe people here, in their enthusiasm for Tolkien, have rather misunderstood the meaning of his statements that 'Middle Earth is here'. He means that the place of his stories are Earth, the same Earth we live on...but the events there-in, and the time in which they take place, are creations of his own. He explicitly stated in several letters and essays that his purpose and love was myth-making. To create a history and mythology that was distinctly 'English' in flavor. Of course, he was a master philologist, and used inspiration from the mythlogies and languages of several different cultures to make his own history.
There is no doubt that he was 'inspired', and has also said that he felt that once he began the creation, things just came to him, falling into place. His mythology captures archetypes that have been a part of our being from time immemorial. This is why it all feels so 'real' to us. In a sense it is...what is 'real' about it is the emotions and soul 'memory' that it resurrects.
It seems more 'real' because Tolkien took the archetypal myth a step further, and created a history and continuity to his stories. I believe fully in the great vehicle which is the Human imagination. I do not believe Tolkien 'found' some other world or dimension or history, and simply recorded it, or translated it. Not in a literal sense. In a manner, we all do this, all the time, in the harnessing of our own imaginations. There are whole 'worlds' within, as of yet undiscovered, just waiting to be brought to life.
Middle Earth is 'real', in that it is a discovery from the depths of Tolkiens own soul, that resonates with all of us whos imaginations are likewise moved by his visions.

As for the 'scientific proof' of parallel universes, in the way which was described above, citing the phenomena of gravity, etc...that is all very nice speculation, but no real evidence or 'proof'. No way for such a theory to be tested, at least it has not been yet...so it is not proof. It is hardly irrefuteable...people have come up with hundreds of other pseudo-scientific explanations that connect all the phenomena that were given as 'evidence'. The idea that Middle Earth in all its detail, as it was written about by Tolkien, is one of these parallel universes is not even close to a 'scientific' theory.
Perhaps one might say that everything ever imagined is 'real' somewhere in the universe, or universes. Nothing wrong with daydreaming about such possibilities...but to claim that it is REAL without doubt is foolish.
How do we choose what to believe in? Is our beief, our 'reality' governed by escapist fantasies? reactions to a way of living which is stressful or unsatisfactory? a will to be 'special' and to know something more than the 'common' person next us? A need or desire to have something 'more' in one's life, apart from what we experience every day?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bethberry - I have't looked at this thread in ages, but something pulled me back to your response. I really have no idea if parallel universes could exist. Maybe yes, maybe no??

But there is some level where Tolkien sensed these stories were "real", that they passed to him from some outside source. Perhaps that real is just the "real" of Myths and Truths, but there are times when that level of insight can be just as important as anything in the physical world.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Gandalf_theGrey]

* smoking a conversational pipe, nods a greeting of acknowledgment to Losthuniel, Great Warg, and Bethberry *

Leto's post and Tolkien citation that "Middle Earth is here" have started me thinking, particularly when viewed in terms of the Professor's philosophy of "the long defeat."

"The long defeat" wherein one tragedy follows another as a result of Arda's / Earth's marring continues to play out around us in this current Age, as anyone reading the newspaper headlines can observe, and will continue until the world be made new.

How then to respond to this Middle Earth in which we find ourselves? I would say, with a wholesome Hobbitlike faithful resolve based on the belief that even the smallest individual is of immense value and can change the world. With hope even when you cannot see any. With a love great enough to give of self and take risks.

I am fortunate to know a "real life" Tom Bombadil, who happens to be a natural historian by profession, and with whom I work once in a while on a living history program. He hosts a dinner each year at his house for those of us who adventure with him.

And I am fortunate to have spent time with Elves. In September of 1996, one such Elf bestowed upon me a gift, which I have kept since then on a small table in my living room as a reminder. The gift was a token of encouragement in a world where the path can often be uncertain. May it remind me to stand firmly as I can no matter how much the bridge crumbles.

To my mind, there are parallels enough, with no need for an entire physical parallel universe.

Gandalf the Grey

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Bêthberry]

*sits a little ways away from the smoke of Gandalf_theGrey's pipeweed while offering a plate of strawberries to him, and to others present*

A wise and thoughtful response, Gandalf and truly typical of your astute way of understanding the nature of the journey. *nods solemnly but happily*

What matters is how we chose to act and where we set our sights, for in each of us the story is retold and relived. Parallel indeed.

*sits ruminating, contentedly*

Bethberry

[Feadolena Nolfare]

I agree heartily with Gandalf that the characters and themes from Tolkien's writing are patent in our everyday lives [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

...With one exception. Middle-Earth evolves in a particular way: quality of existence has a definite downward trend.

Well, I take that back. Not so much downward as diluted; in the First Age and before, entire areas of land were markedly good or evil. But by the time of LotR, most of the places are just ordinary places with ordinary people, neither all good nor all evil. One can imagine that with the defeat of Sauron and the departure of the Elves, this line would become even more blurred.

However, anyone who has studied history to any degree will tell you that neither a downward trend nor good/evil dilution is taking place in the real world. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Not that it isn't an intriguing idea... the "bending of the World" in Akallabeth remains my favourite snippet of Tolkien literature [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Speaking of bent worlds, I find the parallel universe theories to be mightily intriguing, but I am begging off judgement until I get some more reading material on the subject.

It is my personal opinion that the Mediterranean is roughly to the world of Greek mythology as Europe is to Middle-earth. The latter is based loosely on the former, and encompasses the concerns of it, but should not be taken as literally the same place. It's the land seen through the lens of myth.

Which in no way diminishes the messages conveyed in Tolkien's writing.

[Demloth of Dol Amroth]

alright, i'm gonna be off topic for a little bit, but here goes-just a little point to ponder. who says life on earth-earth doesn't go in a diluted/downwards trend, though? and with the hypothesis of evolution, who can say everything is in transit to a future perfection? in case you haven't noticed, the oil supplies are dwindling, clear habitable land also dwindles. not seeing perfection-now if only whoever is in charge of mechanical research would try to make feasible fusion power a reality, we might stave it off for a while yet. so in essence, tolkien might be making a point about ourselves as much as he is writing a story-that middle earth is our earth, and that as things decay and our lost in middle-earth, such happens here.

[Leto]

"Middle Earth is Here." sounds like Uncle Chou in "Big Trouble in Little China"..."China is Here, Mr Burton!" "What does that mean? huh? what is that supposed to mean?! China is Here..." [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Leto, that's a good analogy. It actually helps with what I was going to say. Middle-Earth is a sort of a mirror world of our own. It shows us what the world is like. Tolkien was a genius not only to create an entirer landscape and history, but also to see human nature. No character in The Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings is perfect. They all have faults and weaknesses, even Frodo. Look at the characters and you will see your friends enemiesa and yourself.Middle Earth is what Tolkien called a Secondary World.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

* gratefully accepts strawberries from Bethberry * Thank you for your kind words. I agree when you voice the concept regarding how each of us chooses to live on an individual basis as being what's important. Your style of expression is poetic as well.

* nods acknowledgment of Feadolena Nolfare's words, inhaling pleasant fragrant smoke * When you say "the more things change, the more they stay the same," you explain why technology with its promise to solve everything with its progress does not live up to its promise. While technology grows ever more sophisticated, human nature remains true to template. And attempting to change human nature by artificial or contrived means ... which nature strives toward freedom ... would only breed Orcs. Change is possible and indeed worthy, ... when it is a voluntary choosing of transcendance by the individual.

Gandalf the Grey

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[MallornLeaf]

I know two things. One- we DO NOT live in ME. two-I wish we did!!!!

ME is not a real place, unfortunately, but i love to fantasize that it is!

[NazgulNumber10]

We don't live in ME. It lives in us. In our souls and hearts. May I quote the Matrix

your mind makes it real

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Kalla]

I couldn't agree more with you NazgulNumber10!! I'm a bit new here, usually in the movies section, but I"m venturing out today. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think middle earth is within us...our hearts, our souls, and that is what enables us to see these parallels. Middle Earth is as real as the bonds of love you have for your friends and family...but it is intangible. You cannot prove you love someone any more than you can prove middle earth was a real solid place. We all know people like Bilbo, Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Sam, and Frodo. And if you look at any personality test it is interesting to find that if you take LotR and were to put a sterotyped personality on each, the porportions would be similiar to what you'd find today. Those like Boromir and Merry and Pippin would be numerous while those like Frodo and Gandalf would be less. I also think one of the greatest things this story has, is it gives us a chance to remember what is really important and what should really matter. I guess in that sense, some really do live in Middle Earth, while others live on Earth, and others still just live.

As for civilization's dwindling quality...*shrug* I've had the fortunately experience to work in retail, where civilization is at it's best :P, and in teaching where you see it all. What I have seen is a trend in people becoming more focused on themselves, or at least their families. I've seen people walk by when a new mother's packages fall all over, but I've also seen a little boy give my brother a toy he had just bought for no reason...he just said, here, this is for you and his mother asked if he was sure and he said yes so she nodded and then left. I've seen children come to school with clothes too small and dirty and dark circles under their eyes, but I've seen them laugh and have fun as they play. What saddens me is I am seeing more and more people who walk by and hearing less and less laughter. However, about the time I feel like the whole of society is going down the drain, a little boy helps an old man walk to the escalator, so...lol. I guess what this rambling is trying to say is that I do not think Middle Earth was going down the tubes...perhaps it was becoming unclear who was "good" and who was "bad" if you choose to sterotype a contradiction that lives within us all. But I feel it is no different from today...you cannot tell who it is that is "good" or "bad" Just like the dishelved boy...he was not who a sterotype would say would do such a thing, whereas two young people walking by bump into an old person and don't even appoligize and they look like a classic couple with a baby on the way. I guess I just see most of Middle Earth's society the same as the society we have today, just with different surroundings.

Of course, I believe in magic too, so...there you have it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I can listen to the laughter of children and I know...magic does exist...we just must be open to see it. If that is not enough...to know that with love, we can do anything and it will withstand the trials of time seems pretty amazing and magical to me. But enough of my ramblings...I have many thoughts and words are not always the best tool for me to use to express them, at least not in paragraph forms. Thanks for reading my ramblings, it's always nice to have a place to express your ideas, even if they don't always come out right. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think Middle Earth is that place within ourselves where we truly want to go...the core of who we are, good and bad together. A place where we are accepted and safe to be just ourselves. It's that part of us that clings to hope in the worst of times, allowing us to laugh despite ourselves. We can all live there, but many choose a different reality, for reality is just that. What is reality to a mental patient is not to you, and yet, if that person hears helicopters and there are none you can hear, it is no different than if you see a bird fly by your window as you're driving. Just because someone can or cannot say they heard/saw/felt the same, does not mean it wasn't real. Life is what we make it...and thus reality is how we see life.

[Losthuniel]

*claps* well said Kalla, well said!

[Beleglas]

Yes, Tolkien made this like additional mythology of England because there are only the Arthur legends and Beowulf.
Tolkien is a little vague about us living in Middle Earth but somewhere in the Hobbit I believe he says about the Hobbits that "they are not seen often anymore because they hide from the big people (humans)" or something like that. Also he talks about the constellations having other names "in that time", but I believe that was all in the Hobbit and maybe he changed his mind about that later.

[Evisse the Blue]

I felt like bringing back this wonderful thread, in connection to the current thread about 'Elf-sighting' and such. Enjoy!

[burrahobbit]

The short answer is yes, the shorter answer is no. Both are correct.

[onewhitetree]

Yes.

[burrahobbit]

But also no. Silly.

[Reginald Hill]

In response to Leto

As for the 'scientific proof' of parallel universes, in the way which was described above, citing the phenomena of gravity, etc...that is all very nice speculation, but no real evidence or 'proof'.

The idea of PUs is a theory. Theories are based on observations that are true until further observations prove them wrong (that's a little unclear I think). Theories can almost never be proven right because their is always the possibilty that it will change. That way any largely believed theory can turn out to be wrong. So until observations show that PUs don't exist (which may already have happened, I'm not up to date on any scientific discoveries) the theory stands.

[Atariel]

Okay, the Shire is England, but there is NO WAY that NA is Valinor. no offence to americans. but, for the country that consumes the most beefburgers in a year there is no way that it is Valinor, which was removed from the circles of the world by the Valar anyway.

[Gorothlammothiel]

Here, Here Reginald Hill!

Closed minds won't get people very far, there was a time when the world was thought to be flat and that the sun orbited earth. Those were maintained until proven otherwise but were also believed because the new idea of the world being round was "too silly".

More fool them, lack of evidence is not proof of absence.

[Nieninque]

If only... wouldn't it be so awesome to find the ancient ruins of Rohan or Lothlorien? As to parallel universes... very, very plausible. Perhaps our ideas of Heaven and Hell, and Middle Earth, come from glimpses into these parallel worlds. And then, maybe VanimaEdhel is right, and a visitor from ME came by and visited Tolkien!

[Elven Mistress]

Okay, well, i'm not sure if i'm off topic, but here i go...

A wise person (also known as my brother) once told me what he believed about books. He said that he believes that authors have some kind of a...power....they can see things that actually happen/happened. I love the idea, i mean, that all the books you've ever read - they really happened! And think about it, it's quite plausible. How do we know that there aren't other worlds out there (or parallel universes as some people mentioned) that these events occured at/in.

So, Middle Earth COULD have existed - whether on "earth", a different world, or a parallel universe, i believe there is some truth to it...

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Now that I finally read all the replies, I can reply myself.

First of all, the original question was- Do we live in middle-earth?

My answer- no.

We don't live in ME because it never existed, or at least I think it never existed. To me, ME is just made up by tolkien. I think that tolkien based it upon the middle-ages, and I think that he loved the middle ages. He might have loved the MA so much that he decided to recreate it with a different name; hence, middle-earth. I think that tolkien liked how the middle-ages were, he just wanted to have his own, with his own stroies and events and history. The more he added to it, the more complex it became and in turn, the more realistic it seemed . Middle-earth could just be the middle-ages edited to his liking. Now, you might say, 'well there were no wizards or hobbits in the middle-ages,' right, but tolkien also created middle-earth to be a fantasy also, and not fully realistic. By doing that, it makes middle-earth belong more to tolkien; it makes it his own middle-ages. Also by making middle-earth more of a fantasy, it makes middle-earth, to me, look older and more legendary and more mythical.

I don't think that ME existed a long time ago. Why? Because if it did, how would tolkien have known it did, and if he somehow knew that it existed, how would he have known its full history and everything that happened?

That quote, 'history became legend, legend became myth and things that should not have been forgotten were,' refers in context of ME only and to the ring and the history of the ring when it was lost. It does not hve anything to do with us forgetting about ME. Tolkien created ME because he wanted to. I think that he liked to create worlds and in a way play God. ME never was so it could not
have been forgotton. However I may be wrong. If you believe in the theory of the Big Bang, you could say that ME was on earth before it exploded and started over.

And also, if you say ME was forgotton, I think that it is more like MA was forgotton. The middle-ages was such an amazing period of time and people just forgot about it. Tolkien brought it back in his own vision through his books, in middle-earth.

Some of you say that ME might be like our world, with England as the shire and North America as Valinor. I say yes only in a ceartain way. ME is not in geographic relation to our earth. I think that ME represented mainly Europe during the MA and that in a way England could be seen as the shire. However, it may not be so and in comparrison to places in ME, Europe might look really mixed up.

Enough of that...Gorothlammothiel, you said something about pu's and different dimensions. I like the essay- its good and its interesting. The point about the de ja vu's is really catchy. However, I disagree with you.

Your take on a 4th dimension, time, would allow for us to have a pu. I disagree. I think that time is not a dimension because it is only one way where as the third dimension allows for two ways- up or down/ back or forth/ left or right. Time only goes one way- forward. The 12th century world could not co-exist w/this present world because of time. The 12th century had to end in order for the world to get to the 21st century. However, I may be wrong. I don't know. ME may have existed after all. You can't prove that something is not there. That has always bothered me.

I think that ME did not exist like a world we live in. It was never real and never official. Therefore we can not live in it and no one could have. But I believe that it is a place that you can go. When you read the books, you enter an illusion and escape from reality. That is why I love Middle-Earth.


Thanks for listening.

[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Demloth of Dol Amroth]

I think that it is more like MA was forgotton.

how right ye are, willie, there are times when i think that nobody really cares about that interesting time of history anymore-if they even care about history at all. though i don't know if the point you made on tolkien building on the middle ages is accurate-did you read some correspondence or personal memoirs of tolkien, and did they explicitly say this? i haven't, so do excuse me if you have and you do know.

[JenFramp]

If everyone would read Tolkien's letters he says himself that middle-earth began as being europe, and he wanted to create a mythology for an england that didn't really have one. He also mentions that the land masses don't obviously match up so it was just a story. A brilliant story that a man named J.R.R Tolkien wrote

[morwen edhelwen]

I was just about to talk about the idea of ME as a fantasy time- but I found the last comment interesting. Because I used to daydream (still do about a parallel world where all the events of the books had actually happened and Prof. Tolkien's 'translator explanation" was true- he really had found the "Red Book of Westmarch" in an old room somewhere- it was just that no-one else know about it.. I still have the story idea about a fantasy writer who translated the books he wrote from old stories told to him in his dreams....(strange coincidence!) -Morwen.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This thread is hilarious.

[Galadriel]

Well, for me it was always real. When I see the abuse our precious Earth has been through, I think of Middle-Earth, and at that time it is completely real for me. ME is not just a land...it is a way of life.
And I found that comment about parallel universes very interesting. I've been brought up in a Buddhist environment (it's freaky how so many of its theories can be put to practice) and one of our sayings is that a parallel universe actually exists. Now, I'm an Atheist, but I love thinking about all this kind of wonder. From what I can make out, it actually does exist. Perhaps science does not have proof (yet) but for some eerie reason I am absolutely certain that there is such a thing as a PU.
Long live Tolkien, and long live Middle-Earth! Perhaps it is created by our dreams and thoughts! My uncle is a metaphysics major (and a maths major AND a sanskrit major) and talking with him, I have visited many strange worlds that I had never even thought of before.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It seems many people agree that 'reality is overrated'.