Tolkien's Battles

[littlemanpoet]

The Battle of Five Armies
The Battle of Helm's Deep
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
The Battle before the Teeth of Mordor
The Battle of Bywater
...and a bunch in the Silm to boot.

This is about the pitched battles, not the skirmishes with wargs and goblins and orcs and what-not.

How did Tolkien do? Were his battles realistic? Could he have done better? How? What authors have written better battles? What did they do to make their battles better?

We could consider his narrative purposes in each battle.

I've written just one battle scene for a humble little mega-opus I've been writing for years and years. I was confronted with the horrendous task of describing the over-arching sweep of events that made the battle's actions and turning points, while not forgetting the individual heros and heroines. I can't say that I necessarily did a great job, maybe not bad, either, but this is what Tolkien was confronted with: Did he portray enough realism to make the battle seem what he imagined it to be while telling a great story that the reader could enjoy through the eyes of one or more of the protagonists?

Which battles were better? Worse? Were they all great? Did they all stink?

I've read Stephen Lawhead's pitched battles in his Arthur and Albion series; I can't say that he did any better than Tolkien. What authors can you compare to JRRT?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Tolkien got a lot of his battle 'material' from when he was in the war, I think. I don't necessarily think that any battle was bigger than the other, but the Battle at the Pellennor Fields was definetly bigger than at Helm's Deep. I'm going to write more on this later, this isn't all I have to say!

I think that Terry Brooks is pretty good at writing battle scenes. He did just fine in the Sword of Shannara. (Tolkien was just a tad better though [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

[Alkithilien]

Hmm... I think it's true what was said before... Tolkien watched two wars... in the I World War he fought by himself as an officer, in the II World War his son was a soldier. Maybe that's why, or ,maybe he was just great writer (that's the most true [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])...
I read only a half of LOTR and Hobbit... so not too much (still reading and fallin in love deeper and deeper), but I like Helm's Deep Battle...

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

He definetly got inspiration from experience. When Tolkien came back home from the war, he was devasted at what happened to his town, his country. He was very fond of his town. And he added Scourging of the Shire in the book because of experience. When he came home from the war, his home was almost destroyed because of the war. This is atleast what I think. Of course, I could be the only one who thinks so!
The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, I think, was the most devastating war. The Battle of Unnumbered Tears. It suits it. I don't know if that was written out of experience, but he certainly wrote that well!!

[Alkithilien]

Usuallt I don;t like battle scenes (like many of girls [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]) but Tolkien's battles are great... I read it really with... hmm... interest... It was even fun when Legolas with Gimli were counting orcs they had killed [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] anyway in movie it was showed magnificant!

[Baran]

Tolkiens battlescenes are good. They are not the best I have read, but they are realistic. Tolkien had clearly some knowledge on this field. But the formations and tecniques used in Toliens battles are quite "old fasioned", belong around 1000 a.c. The people of Middle-Earth should clearly have more advanced fighting as they had used the same weapons for thousands of years.

I don't know if the swedish writer Jan Gulio's last books have been translated to English, if they have, check them out!

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

But the formations and tecniques used in Toliens battles are quite "old fasioned", belong around 1000 a.c. The people of Middle-Earth should clearly have more advanced fighting as they had used the same weapons for thousands of years.

The medieval people had used the same weapons (swords and spears) for thousands of years too. The tactics seem pretty much equal to that period.

[Kuruharan]

Middle earth did not really have a great deal of technological advances over the first three ages. (This probably has to do with Elvish attachment to the past and dislike of change.) Throughout these ages the weapons and fighting techniques roughly correspond to the Dark Ages of Western Europe. There is some very facinating commentary on the battles and warfare of the age in the UT on the Battle of the Gladden Fields and the Battles of the Fords of Isen for those that are interested.

Ah yes the Gladden fields is well described. CLearly tolkien did put some thought into tactics and formations used by the inhabitants of ME. I am not sure his own war experiences contribute to this type of thing. More the horror of war and its effects on participants, land, etc.

Actually I am compiling, detailed descriptions of all the battles and skirmishes from the books along with another, complete with flash maps etc. An interesting subject to be sure.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I couldn't get enough of the battles. I thought they were great. Even better though were the profound comments made by the combatants and the actions of self-sacrifice and bravery. One really gets the feel of desperation, despair, and victory.

[Anorien]

I really don't think that I am one to talk about this, cause the only parts I read were about Frodo and Sam, but who can argue with Tolkien? He made his battles art, well, to me he did! His whole collection of Tales are wonderful, they are just amazing. Tolkien has always amazed me with his books, and I'm looking forward to reading the battles, cause everyone here thinks that I should continue on and read about the rest of the fellowship.

[Dimaldaeon]

Tolkiens battles were great but i would like to know more about the battle of sudden flame. However Tolkien never mentioned how they defended on a battlefield, he gave a great description of Helm's Deep but he never mentioned Schiltrons or caltraps. I'm sure only Sauron would be cruel enough to use caltraps but still. Tolkien wrote battles really well though. I remember reading the Pelennor fields over and over again. It was so great. If you had looked at me you would have seen a hero halo (It's a Celtic thing don't ask)

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

What's the battle of sudden flame?

If you had looked at me you would have seen a hero halo (It's a Celtic thing don't ask)

I love Celtic stuff! what is it?

[O'Boile]

Anorien, why would you only read the parts about Frodo and Sam? Those are only half the story, and in my opinion, the more boring half.

[Kuruharan]

The Battle of Sudden Flame was when Morgoth broke the Seige of Angband. He spewed fires from Angband and Glaurung, escorted by Balrogs, led a massive army out to do battle against the Noldor.

The use of the fire and all the fire-charged creatures (Dragons and Balrogs) is the reason why it's called the Battle of Sudden Flame.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Oh, ok. Thanks Kuruharan.

[Kuruharan]

I guess that I forgot to mention that Morgoth pretty well kicked their butts.

Silly me. How could I forget an important thing like that? [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[greyhavener]

It's interesting how Tolkien blended realism and fantasy in his battle scenes. Like so many who have been to war he captured the panic and self-preservation felt by the combatants along with the grisly misery. As a writer of an epic work his characters performed like heroes and evil was defeated, yet Tolkien's characters demonstrated more battlefield realism in their attitudes than most of those selfless larger-than-life epic heroes.

The best battlefield description I've read recently was in "Flags of Our Fathers" an account of Iwo Jima. Nothing is more chlling than real life...that's why I read alot of fantasy.

[gayare'dion]

didnt morgoth use mechanical monsters once ? i thought i read something about that here, and i thought it sounded pretty cool.
also the "devilry" at helms deep must be some type of new mechanical warcraft, that saruman used cause it talks about him having a mind of wheels or something.
ohh and at pelennor fields with the catapults that launched the clay pots that exploded when hit, like a giant molotof (witch reminds me of gladiator in the begginging)where pretty advnanced i guess you could say. i love tolkien's battles!

[Sarin Elfarmour]

the "devilry" was probably an explosive. did you ever notice that only the bad guys used (for their time) complex machinery? tolkein thought it better to make things with one's own hands than to make a machine to do the work instead

[gayare'dion]

i think complex weapons are kinda cool, and i think a good bad/evil story should always having the bad guys with the upper hand, being in numbers or weaponry, or whatever.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I think that the "bad guys'" use of complex and destructive machinery probably mirrored Tolkien's own dislike of the industrialization of the English countryside. I won't go any further, as this facet of ME warfare has already been discussed on other threads.

[steve]

i belive tolkien did the best job any writer could of done with his battles, because they were descriptive enough to give u a partially clear picture but left enough blurry for you to use ur imagionation which is what fantasy writings are about, hense all the diffrent paintings that have been made by artists about Lotr, if he made them to realistic and detailed, there would be no room for the creativity of the mind to work, if tolkien didnt write his battles, and for that matter the whole books like he did, none of us would be here discussing this

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: steve ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Ok Aldagrim, have you ever noticed that when you're watching a really great battle scene in a movie the blood lust kicks in, you want to be there killing.Your hair starts to bristle and stand up and you notice the blood pounding through the veins in your temples. You'll notice the hairs on the back of your neck start to tingle as they stand on end. This is a hero halo, it used to happen to CúChulainn alot and you'll still notice it at Gaelic games or when you watch the Irish turn around and attack the English in Braveheart. If you want to find out more about Celtic things read The Táin.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I thought the manner in which he made the battles both epic and personal was excellent...my "favourite" would be the Nirnaeth Arnoediad because it's touchingly written and terribly sad

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Thanks Dimaldaen. I think I've had one of those while I was the football equipment manager.

[piosenniel]

littlemanpoet

I was confronted with the horrendous task of describing the over-arching sweep of events that made the battle's actions and turning points, while not forgetting the individual heros and heroines.

Your quote reminded me of my favorite Tolkien battle: 'The Fall of Gondolin' from the Book of Lost Tales II.

From the first description of the Gondothlim watching in dread as their sky waxes redder and the snow on the mountains turns to red as if it were dyed with blood to the description of the king's tower beset with orcs, serpents of flame and balrogs, the tension builds and the hopelessness of the defense is seen. Morgoths troops sweep like a dark flame over the city, while the brave defenders rally and retreat until all is lost.

Great heroes rise up to fight against the foe - Tuor and the men of the Wing, Glorfindel, and Ecthelion to name a few.

Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain,fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm had a spike upon it he drave into that evil beast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters.

Great, epic battle scenes; haven't read better.

[littlemanpoet]

piosenniel:

I might hazard a guess, but first I'd like to ask you, what is it about the scene you quoted, and the battle you mentioned that, as written, made it so good?

lmp

[piosenniel]

About the battle:

I liked the way Tolkien built to a climax.

He started with a scene of innocence, the festival, and brought in, wave upon increasing wave, the unrelenting advance of overwhelming evil and destruction. Each description of the encroachment of Morgoth's forces is followed with a thrilling description of the Gondothlim's response. These descriptions of the heroic response to the invasion are couched in grand language, which brings hope they will prevail, but the forces of darkness beat them back again and again. Yet still the warriors of Gondolin rally,though

Now is the face of that chieftain grim, and he looks not to live long

As to the particular scene of Ecthelion and the balrog,Gothmog - that hero blazes up like a flaming star of hope - the great Gothmog is killed, the troops of the enemy waver in their advance and the warriors of Gondolin rally with their king and think to turn the battle. But, by their own action, they kill one of the fire-drakes who, falling into the Fountain (which I took to be one of the primary symbols of Gondolin), destroys it and crushes their hope.

Then dread fell on all for the doom of the fountain . . . Then said the king: "Great is the fall of Gondolin"

It is after this that the other symbols of Gondolin's strength are smote down - the king secludes himself in his tower, the two trees are despoiled, and at last, the tower itself is brought down and the king killed.

Behold the tower leapt into a flame and in a stab of flame it fell, for the dragons crushed the base of it and all who stood there. Great was the clanguor of that terrible fall, and therein passed Turgon, King of the Gondothlim, and for that hour the victory was for Melko.

Melkor wins for this short time, but still hope endures.

The heroic action does not end with the fall of the city; it continues through the escape of some of the citizens lead by Tuor and Glorfindel.

And here on their harrowing escape as they battle their way through the enemy troops, another hero blazes up - Glorfindel fights a balrog who seeks to bar the way. I won't quote that, suffice it to say the description is again wonderful - the scene builds upon itself, one driving against the other in succession until at last the balrog is killed and Glorfindel, 'the most dearly beloved', perishes.

Now that I've maundered on, I'll be a little more succinct - what made it so good for me was the way Tolkien set the scenes, moved the action along, kept the promise of light prevailing over darkness, and, most important imo, used the English language so well and so masterfully.

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to read this great battle again!

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Arie]

I truly believe Tolkien's battles came from the idea of the war that he took place in-even though his battles are more brutal and fascinating-i guess he was trying to express how brutal the war he was in...

[littlemanpoet]

Piosenniel:

An excellent recounting and summation. I'm taking notes.

Arie: Yes, I'd say that's true. I like your signature quote. It put me in mind of Sam, of course, in one of the darkest hours that yet gleams with elvish light. There you have again that mixing of the bitter and the sweet with amazing results.

lmp

[piosenniel]

littlemanpoet

So, now please share your favorite battle/battles and tell us why. And how did your battle scene work out in comparison?

[littlemanpoet]

piosenniel: After I take care of my current fight scene revision problems, I will tackle your worthwhile challenge. Deadlines and all that, you know...

[littlemanpoet]

It has been all too long since I've been able to keep the promise, but here it is. I have re-read Battle of Five Armies and part of Helm's Deep and one thing already stands out.

In both depictions, by the time you get to the actual battle, Tolkien has long since set up the terrain, battlement structures, and what-not in your mind. He doesn't pause in the middle of the battle action to do it.

Helm's Deep is described in the beginning of the chapter, way before Eomer and Aragorn and the rest actually get there.

In the Battle of Five Armies, the environs of the Lonely Mountain have long since been described. We are already familiar with all the terrain by the time the battle occurs.

If my memory serves me correctly, this is also true of the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

Now for my confession - I didn't pull this off in my own battle scene. So that's a lesson learned in going back to revise. Thanks for the challenge, piosenniel.

[Eol]

The battle I can remmeber the best is the battle of Sudden Flame as well as the Fifth battle.

Tolkien wrote what he knew and was pretty cool stuff. That particualar battle had an old world flavor from civilazations long since passed. There was bravery and anger( such as Gwindor charged the heralds after they publicly slaughtered his brother, terribly gruesome but fitting) and foolishness( gwindor rushing the heralds but never receiving the backup he needed, everyone died, several captured and tortured).

It has been a while since I have read the second and third book of LOTR and honestly the battles there were sufficent enough for the story(from what I can recall from last year).

Battles are very hard to write if dragged out too long. Keep them short and sweet and they generally have a better affect. This is only for the actual fighting, now if there are successive battles ands scrimishes, you have to treat that a little differently.

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

I just finished rereading the battle of the Pelennor Fields. I had forgotten how long the whole thing is from beginning to end. It's not just the one chapter bearing that title, but a whole series of chapters in which Tolkien uses his interlacing skills to maximum effect.

What I find striking, Eol, is that the battle is long and drawn out, but it still works, and not merely succeeds, but is an incredibly gripping, moving, powerful human experience all the way through. I find it to be one of the most powerful sections of LotR (and can't wait to see the scene in the movie of Eowyn, Merry, and the Lord of the Nazgul!). Here's the question: what did Tolkien do to make the Pelennor battle work so well? Detractors' opinions are, of course, welcome as well.

I'll offer one answer, but I think it's only partial: Tolkien weaves through the battle the individual experience of all of his major characters. We see Theoden during the Charge of Rohan into the field. We see the confrontation between the Lord of the Nazgul and Eowyn from Merry's point of view. We see Denethor's suicide and Gandalf versus the Lord of the Nazgul from Pippin's point of view. We see the battle after Theoden is slain and Eowyn has fallen from Eomer's point of view. And so on. And not just merely from their point of view, but wrought with their emotions, be they hope, despair, sorrow, fear, whatever it is. The effect is staggering. I find myself shedding tears at the sight of the courageous, despairing, vulnerable Eowyn facing the Lord of the Nazgul, and I'm astonished by her skill at cleaving the head off the Nazgul's evil flying steed. That's enough for now. I could go on and on.

[Eol]

IMP: you do have a point about Tolkien's battles being long and at points quite gripping. I just completed the notes for the fall of Fingolfin and the fall of beleriand. After reading battles, who kills who becomes a blur. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]