Sauron's knowledge of the Istari

[Maéglin]

Did Sauron know about the true nature of the Istari, that they were really Maiar spirits. It points to that way, with Sauron's contact with Saruman. But one thing that bothers me is that the slaves of the Dark Lord are really contemptuous of Gandalf et. al such as the Witch King and the Mouth of Sauron. Or are they so overbearingly confident of their Lord's powers that they feel no fear. Nevertheless the meeting of Gandalf and the Witch king at the gates of Minas Tirith seemed like a contest of wills between two equals yet Gandalf was most likely the much more powerful one.

If Sauron did know about the true nature of the Istari wouldnt he have told all his servants to be wary of them at the least because they are very powerful spirits.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

He knew that the Istari were Maiar, of course; whether he guessed it, if he knew of their existence (which I think is definite), before Saruman was ensnared by the Palantir I do not know. I think that this is also probable, but certainly after he had seen Curunir through the Seeing-stone he would know instantly.

They were, after all, both servants of Aule in primeval times. But an Ainu could probably recognise the like.

Did the Witch-King know Gandalf's identity? Perhaps Sauron revealed this to him, entrusting him the knowledge. The WK certainly knew who Gandalf was. The Mouth of Sauron had obviously been told about Gandalf as well; Sauron's commanders of a surety knew who he was.

[Eggy]

In my opinion Sauron definitly knew about the true nature of the Istari, but weather or not he told he WK is open to debate.Sauron may simply have told the WK that Gandalf was a great spirt and that he would do well to defeat him.

[Lord of Angmar]

he meeting of Gandalf and the Witch king at the gates of Minas Tirith seemed like a contest of wills between two equals yet Gandalf was most likely the much more powerful one.

Gandalf was indeed immensely more powerful than the Witch King, but, even in the most dire need of Middle Earth, he could not reveal his true power to the Witch King and the mortals around. Also, the Witch King was guided and controlled by Sauron, who I am sure lent a great deal of power to his Captain.

[tinewelt]

I do not have the sources with me, but it is where Gandalf is talking with gimli in the White Rider in TTT. He says something along the lines of

and I am dangerous, more dangerous than anything else in this world unless you come upon the dark lord himself

of course thats not the exact text, but you get the idea. That is something that people overlook alot of the times. I believe that after Gandalf came back from death (and before, but not as great) he could have easily used his great power to defeat the enemy and aid the forces of good.(not defeat Sauron himself, but alot of his forces) But as said in the previous post, he is instructed ( i am not sure if he is bound to it, because saruman was on the same mission, yet uses his power strictly opposite of how instructed by the Valar) not to show his majestic power, nor appear as a king, or person of power and could not assume any leadership. If he were allowed, then things might have turned out much differently.

[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: tinewelt ]

[Olorin_TLA]

Good points. Lord of Angmar, you're right: the Tolkein certianly mentions out of LotR, and I'm sure in it, that the Witch King' power at Pellenor Fields is fuelled by Sauron: they aren't inividuals anymore, just an extension of Him, and so his innate Maia power can be used through them, as it were.

Tolkien also states that Sauron would have thought the Istari as a last desperate (and pathetic) attempt of the Valar to maintain control and influence over Middle-earht; thinking that they, like him, were of an imperial presuasion in such matters.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Here's the quote that Olorin_TLA is referring to (from Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring):

If [Sauron] thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to re-establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand... [Sauron probably imagined that Gandalf] was only a rather cleverer Radagast-cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.

It's not clear why Sauron would tell the Witch-King or the Mouth about the Istari's true nature. "This Gandalf fellow is a Maia just like me, and he can easily kick your ****!" All that would accomplish would be to make the WK apprehensive. Probably the WK truly believed that Gandalf was just a man, and therefore (according to the prophesy) wasn't going to do anything to him.

I think that if Gandalf was actually attacked by the WK at the gates of Minas Tirith, he would have fought him (as he did with the Balrog--which made it pretty clear to the rest of the Fellowship that he wasn't an ordinary human). But the reinforcements from Rohan showed up at just the right time to make this unnecessary [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

The one thing that led to Sauron's downfall was that in his overweening pride, he thought that all his enemies thought exactly like him, and so, tried to counter their moves based on what he thought they would do. Sauron would never have given up the chance to wield the One Ring, and he thought the same thing applied to Aragorn. He would never have imagined that the whole Heir-of-Isildur-has-returned ploy was just being used to distract him from Frodo and Sam, deep inside Mordor. That is what ultimately got him.

He used the same mode of thinking when dealing with all of his enemies. That was why Gandalf's ruse worked as long as it did. Sauron just didn't comprehend the power of "good," just as Manwë just didn't comprehend evil. He thought all people thought and behaved exactly like him, and that was what he expected Gandalf (and Aragorn) to do.

[Darth Mithrandir]

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said ARagorn at last, 'that you could go whitheresoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has nine. But we have One, mighter than they: the white rider. He passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go wherever he leads.'

Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwriath, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'

Then, Mithrandir you have a foe to mathc you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all you have to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?

Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadofax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe....

I'll just reference the last page from the chapter 'The Seige of Gondor' where Gandalf and the Witch King conversed within the Gate of Gondor. If Gandalf were not at least as powerful as WK, then there would have been no point in his open defiance. Pick up the beginning of chapter 6 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields' and see that there was more amiss than the white rider that seemed more urgent. The ring had not been found, or he would have known the summon.

Fear of failure most certainly called his attention to the battle field. Fear of Mithrandir, I'm not exactly sure that WK knew who he was. WK did know that no mere man could defeat him (conversation with Dernhelm/Eowyn), and it was common knowledge among the company that any blade that struck him would be destroyed (See the conversation in Rivendell, or just prior after Frodo was stricken by him.

Interestingly enough (and part of my theory in Speculations and another 'what if' scenario ), Merry's sword which was enchanted with a spell from Fornost? was the actual dealing blow. (I seriously doubt this will be covered in the movie ROTK.) [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

The blades of Arnor found in the Barrow Downs were cetainly enchanted with spells for the downfall of Mordor. Obviously that doesn't eman that one touch and Morodr itself will collapse, but rather that they will be very dangerous to any of Mordor's servants...I believe in RotK it is said that that the forger of Merry's blade would have been proud of its fate and the way it was destroyed; obviously because the WItch King desteoyed the forger's countyr, but also I think because the spells on the blade were made to have an effect on the Nazgul as one of the servants of Mordor.

No man can kill him: did this mean no man in such a position would have done so? I'm not so sure. Perhaps it means more that (I forget who said it) the Elf who said it could forsee that his doom was faroff and not by the hand of a man. Still: it's evident that Merry's strike allowed Éowyn enough time to kill the Witch King, but from reading the texts, it seems to me that Merry's blade MAYBE made the WK's undead, spiritual-almost form more "mortal". Terrible choice of words there, butv there you go. :P (the Witch King doesn't "die", but falls forward in pain: he's still "alive" though) and that allows Éowyn to kill him.
Does her blade wither too?

This may of course not be true, but regardless, I think Éowyn dealt the death blow, but Merry made that possible, at least by saving Éowyn!

[The Saucepan Man]

Slaying of the Witch King

[Darth Mithrandir]

Agreed Eowyn did indeed smite WK.

Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between the crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards.

And I'll recapitulate for correction sake...WK was originally a man, however under the influence of his ring, he became a wraith. His magic ring rendered him invisible; yet he was indeed 'mortalized' by the mark of Maste Meriadoc's blade on Numenorean make.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic of discussion.


edited for typos

[ October 21, 2003: Message edited by: Darth Mithrandir ]

[Angry Hill Troll]

Merry's sword which was enchanted with a spell from Fornost? was the actual dealing blow. (I seriously doubt this will be covered in the movie ROTK.)

That would indeed be rather hard, considering the chapter where Merry gets the sword was excised from the movie. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Actually the sword might not be from Fornost, since it was the capital of Arthedain and the Barrow-Downs were in Cardolan (if you want to get technical)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Saucepan Man has linked to the thread on the Slaying of the Witch King; please take discussion of that topic there so that this thread can stay on its original topic - thanks!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

An on-topic question:

The one thing that led to Sauron's downfall was that in his overweening pride,

Which means that even if Sauron knew that the Istari were Maiar, he feared none of them, especially Gandalf-Olorin...

But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron.

(I could see it with my mind's eye: back before the Ainulindalë, Olorin would cower in a corner when Sauron approached. Or maybe he feared Sauron's power on Middle-earth. Anyway...) Maybe Sauron knew of this fear, and thought little of him in his counsels?

Yours, if you want to [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
->The True Son of Finrod, and of Amarië the Vanyar

[Finwe]

I don't think Olorin feared Sauron per se, he just realized his weaknesses and decided not to confront Sauron.