Foreshadowing and Fear

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I was just thinking, that for such an arachnophobiac (like myself) Tolkien didn't do a lot of foreshadowing for Shelob. While Gollum's oft-mentioned monologue referring to 'Her' helping him is certainly saying there is something nasty coming, it doesn't really convey any sort of knowledge of the fact that she is a spider-queen. We only really find out that she is a spider when Frodo and Sam run into silvery barriers, and come to the realization that they are webs. There aren't any small spiders which Sam swats away and mentions how nasty they look, or anything like that. You would think that Tolkien would give a little more warning to potential scaredy-cats (unless the point was to make somebody jump, as opposed to merely being creeped out). I just thought that was a little strange, given that other things were often alluded to frequently before they were unveiled.

[FingolfintheBold]

Now that you mention it, it does seem kind of odd, considering Tolkien's gift for foreshadowing. But in this case i think it really didnt matter that much. I mean it wasnt so random as to be an annoyance, like all of a sudden a giant spider pops up from nowhere. I think most readers have a good idea by the time the tunnel comes along that something nasty is coming, and that there is no indicaion of what it may be probably adds to the suspense, rather than takeing away from it.

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't see why he should need to foreshadow, as it only adds to the suspense that we don't know who or what Shelob is in the chapter "Shelob's Lair". Also, for true Tolkien fanatics, there is a scary form of foreshadowing. The name of Cirith Ungol provides a grave warning to all fully-read Tolkienites, as it hints at the name of Ungoliant, the horrid mother of the "spiders" of Middle Earth who helped Morgoth defile Valinor and steal the Silmarils.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

The readers know Frodo and Sam are going to encounter something but Tolkien keeps us guessing what is it which makes the book more suspenseful and more interesting. If Gandalf would have said at some point along the journey, "Oh and by the way, if we take a certain path into mordor we will run into a very VERY big spider." That would have spoiled it and made Shelob kind of dull in my opinion.
If Gandalf had known and told the Fellowship that they could meet up with Shelob I think we can all assume that Legolas would say, "Bring the eight legged freak on!" Ok maybe he wouldn't say it like that but he is used to spiders like Shelob.

[Perethil]

maybe as an arachnophobiac Tolkien was uncomfortable even foreshadowing it .. hmm.
well it does seem odd, cos that was definately a skill of his. maybe what was intended was that feeling of shock to the reader - that he himself would have felt had he wandered into the cave-home of a gigantic man-eating spider.

it is sort of a miss tho, i think there was a lot of spook-potential there, and to me personally shelob didnt represent such a scary villain purely because of her sudden in-yer-face appearance. i know, for example that HP Lovecraft's best stories are the ones about his real life fears. would have been good if there was some more foreshadowing.

[Kalimac]

I think Tolkien did enough in the way of foreshadowing - as you mentioned, Gollum does refer to HER, and the nasty stink in the tunnel, as well as the webs, tell us that (a) whatever this is, it's probably got some animal tendencies (b) hmmm, what is it that makes *webs* again? Foreshadowing doesn't mean he has to foreshadow exactly what the menace is, only that there's a menace - and he certainly does a good job of that. (Reading that description of the tunnel seems to take about ten years, it's so well done). If we've read "The Hobbit," the precedent for unnaturally large, vicious spiders is established there. And it's hard to imagine smaller spiders coexisting with Shelob somehow - one gets the impression that she'd snap them up in an idle moment pretty easily.

Furthermore, it makes sense that the spider wouldn't be mentioned explicitly. Who would know about her? Gandalf hasn't spent much time hanging out in that part of the world ("To the east I go not"), and even Faramir, who's closest of all, knows only that Cirith Ungol is bad news. The main reason for this is that, at least going by the impression the text gives, nobody had previously had a close personal encounter with Shelob and lived to tell the tale, except of course for Gollum. Obviously she was known of before - hence the name "Cirith Ungol" - but it seems to have been one of those names like "St Martin's in the Field's" or something similar, where the name is so old that it doesn't necessarily reflect the current reality. The Orcs, of course, know that she's still there, but there's an obvious communication problem there.

[Lord of Angmar]

Faramir too obviously dreads Cirith Ungol, reporting to Frodo that it is a place with a dark and unknown history.

[Finwe]

Since the old Professor himself was an arachnophobe (having been bitten by one in his youth), I think that he would have wanted his readers to feel that same surprised fear at the truly repulsive sight of Shelob. Granted, seeing those icky webs and smelling that icky smell would have been frightening enough, but nothing could have prepared Frodo or Sam for seeing "Big Mama" herself, up close and personal.

You are more frightened by the things that you do not expect, or that you do not fully realize. I think that the fear would have mounted, as the Hobbits came upon bigger and bigger webs, a worse stench, and the skeletons of Shelob's prey, and it would have come to a peak upon being attacked by the spider herself.

[The Saucepan Man]

This is interesting, because one of my few clear memories from when I first read LotR is having anticipated (with a wonderful mixture of excitement and dread) what Frodo and Sam were to encounter in Shelob's Lair before starting the chapter.

And the clue for me was in the title to the chapter. Shelob's name is mentioned in the chapter: "She-Lob". Where had I seen the word "Lob" before? Why, in the Hobbit, when Bilbo fought the spiders - "Lazy lob". So what's a "She-Lob"? Ah yes, Gollum had been talking about a "she", so it must be a she-spider. OK, that gives away nothing about her size, but we instinctively know it's not going to be easy getting into Mordor, and the fact that her lair provides the title to the chapter gives us a big hint as to her imortance.

So, for me, the events of the chapter were perfectly foreshadowed. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

By the way, it's true about the name of the pass (Cirith Ungol) giving a hint here, Lord of Angmar, but I suspect that there are very few who have read the Silmarillion, or come across Ungoliant, before reading LotR.

[Lord of Angmar]

Very true, Saucepan. I did read the Lord of the Rings well before the Silmarillion. But these days, you never know, as both books have been out for quite awhile.

[InklingElf]

maybe as an arachnophobiac Tolkien was uncomfortable even foreshadowing it .. hmm.

I may disagree with this--however I do not consider Tolkien to be too keen on such eccentricity

In Addition:

Since the old Professor himself was an arachnophobe (having been bitten by one in his youth), I think that he would have wanted his readers to feel that same surprised fear at the truly repulsive sight of Shelob. Granted, seeing those icky webs and smelling that icky smell would have been frightening enough, but nothing could have prepared Frodo or Sam for seeing "Big Mama" herself, up close and personal.

and...

And the clue for me was in the title to the chapter. Shelob's name is mentioned in the chapter: "She-Lob". Where had I seen the word "Lob" before? Why, in the Hobbit, when Bilbo fought the spiders - "Lazy lob". So what's a "She-Lob"? Ah yes, Gollum had been talking about a "she", so it must be a she-spider. OK, that gives away nothing about her size, but we instinctively know it's not going to be easy getting into Mordor, and the fact that her lair provides the title to the chapter gives us a big hint as to her imortance.

Perhaps, Tolkien's foreshadowing was not as clear to me as it was to The Saucepan Man but it is clear to see that he did intend for a hint of Shelob--moreso a "she" spider-villian to be at hand...

I don't believe foreshadowing for Shelob was that much of great importance--even for Tolkien himself--although it is interesting that the topic was brought up.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Man, oh man, do I hate spiders. But I guess it's true, when you spot a spider it's usually not drawn out over a long period of time. You pick up a rock or turn on a light or something and there it is, and all you can do is freak out and be repulsed by it. And he certainly did go into the hardcore detail in Shelob's Lair. As opposed to the Balrog, or Smaug, he didn't leave much to the imagination. He just took the nastiest things about spiders and drew a picture in our brains. After all, the Balrog, or Smaug, or the fell steeds of the Nazgul, didn't exactly inspire fear into the readers themselves, while Shelob did give a twinge of nervousness.

I hadn't connected 'she' with 'lob' until after I read it, but I suppose someone who knew what lob meant certainly did have a good idea about what lay ahead. I think we find out soon enough once we see her eyes. And then the eyes themselves are actually foreshadowing just how repulsive and gross and nasty the rest of her was.

Tolkien was a master at his art.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My first reading of Shelob's Lair was extremely forshadowed, but that was only because my fool of a brother [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] kept telling me things like "You're going to be scared... don't read it before you go to sleep." At the time, the only things I got nightmares from were spiders, snakes, and vampires (recurring nightmare from when I was about 4). Since I'd never happened across Tolkien writing about giant snakes or vampires, I had to assume my brother meant there was a spider involved. Remembering the Mirkwood spiders, and Bilbo's shouts of "lazy lob", I put She and Lob together, got a spider, and jumped to the [accurate] conclusion that there was a she-spider in the cave somewhere. Even with all of that foreshadowing, I still freaked once I got a good vision of what She herself looked like. Tolkien did make vague allusions to Shelob, but now that I think of it, he did skrimp on the foreshadowing...

Fea

[Mungo of Bracegirdle]

Indeed, if you know some elvish you might notice that Cirith Ungol in fact traslates to "Spider's Cleft" or "Spider's Pass." Gollum refering to her, faramir's fear of the pass, along with Gandalf's nervousness about that way all really solid instances of foreshadow.

Cheers

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I think FoP needs not blame her brother for giving something away. Obviosly the chapter in the Hobbit, Flies and Spiders is a bit more direct in its allusion, but when my eighth grade reading teacher told us that there were giant spiders, I still didn't get the full brunt of just how disgustingly well illustrated they would be. I guess it just goes to show that no amount of foreshadowing or even spoiling can live up Tolkien's actual descriptions of the things happening. His imagery is just that perfect in describing some of the nastier aspects of Middle-Earth.