The Three on Sauron's hand - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 10-11-2003, 07:39 PM

We know that the power of the 3 rings is to ward off the decay of time. To keep things unsullied...

What effect would the 3 rings have in the hand of Sauron? I think that, for example, Narya would have a terrible effect on the hearts and wills of Sauron's enemies... since Sauron would use the ring to weaken the resolve of his enemies...

Any other ideas? What about Vilya and Nenya?

Finwe · 10-11-2003, 07:42 PM

Hmmm... interesting topic.

I think that if Sauron wielded the Three Elven Rings, they wouldn't work as they would have done with Elven bearers. Since the Elves made them for a specific purpose, to preserve from the decays of time, I don't think Sauron could have really done much with them, except preserve what he created or built.

Iarhen · 10-12-2003, 07:36 AM

The effects would not be the same, of course, but what type of effect would the 3 have then? Because the others made their bearers phantoms or really greedy... But what about the 3? Would they accelerate the decay of time, to bring the world to an end, and accelerate Morgoth's return? Just a thought...

Finwe · 10-12-2003, 08:31 AM

As I said in my post, I think that they would probably prolong the life of all of Sauron's creations, but would "freeze" Mordor as it was when Sauron recovered the Rings, as Nenya did to Lothlorien. Unless Sauron could completely change their purpose, I don't think they would accelerate anything, especially destruction, since that was what the Elves wanted to prevent when they created the Rings.

rudeboy · 10-12-2003, 11:32 AM

Couldn't he use them to his own if he recovered the one? Or could he just see the thoughts & conrtrol those who wore them?

Finwe · 10-12-2003, 12:15 PM

If he had recovered the One Ring, he wouldn't have been able to use the Three for his own purposes, but the minds of their bearers would have been laid bare before him. He would have been able to know whatever their Bearers were thinking, which is in itself, worse than death.

Olorin_TLA · 10-12-2003, 05:21 PM

The slowing of time is in Tolkien's view (and thereofre in LotR the onyl improtant view [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) a minor sin...if Sauron got his hands on these things he'd make them a much bigger sin. Probably use them to permanatly coat his lands in torment and evil...as if they werne;t already. Good question. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Earendilyon · 10-13-2003, 02:09 AM

Gandalf used his ring to 'kindle fire in the hearts of Sauron's enymies', or something like that. Maybe Sauron could use it to kindle fire in the hearts of his servants, so that they would even fight harder and fearcer for him? And the other two, had they not power of water and air? Imagine what Sauron could do with those elements, combined with the power of his One Ring!

Finwe · 10-13-2003, 08:12 AM

Now that I think about it, if Sauron had Vilya and Nenya, perhaps he could turn those elements against his enemies, and use them as weapons. The only problem with that theory is, since the Nazgul were afraid of fire and water, both being elements closely governed by Valar, couldn't Sauron have also been afraid of them?

Finwe · 10-13-2003, 08:12 AM

Now that I think about it, if Sauron had Vilya and Nenya, perhaps he could turn those elements against his enemies, and use them as weapons. The only problem with that theory is, since the Nazgul were afraid of fire and water, both being elements closely governed by Valar, couldn't Sauron have also been afraid of them?

Earendilyon · 10-13-2003, 09:40 AM

Never read anything about Sauron being afraid of water or wind. But maybe he still was afraid of water after his "Númenor Adventure" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] He may even have had the same nightmares as the Professor had!

Olorin_TLA · 10-13-2003, 11:41 AM

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] !!!

Seriously though..well, I doubt he liked floods anymore [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] but seeing as he owned Minas Tirith in the 1st Age, which was on an island, I doubt water worried him...and seeing as he has the whole burning-like-fire and Mount Doom eruptions thing going on, I doubt fire is abd either.

Actually: Mordor must be Hell (or Udun!) for the Nazgs! Imagine being near that huge mountain of fire when you fear fire! *Nasty*

Secret Fire · 10-13-2003, 01:52 PM

Sauron was Maya, not man wraith like the Nazgul, so therefore he would not have the same fears as the Nazgul in these regards, and their fear of them is mostly because fire scattered their vision at night (not to mention burning their cloaks) and water is controlled by Ulmo (or at least his Mayar helpers) who had not forsaken Middle earth and still worked in its favor, they would fear their power. The rings themselves, in my opinion, based more directly on the vala than any others as water is Ulmo's element (actually vai, but that's okay) and air is Manwe's element (vilya and nenya) and the third (narya) was for fire, much parallel to the secret fire that Lluvatar put into his creations, so Narya was more closely related to Lluvatar, perhaps.
musings of a fool!

Silmiel of Imladris · 10-13-2003, 02:39 PM

I am not really sure but I think I read somewhere that Sauron wanted the Elves to make the rings so he could enslave them. If he gained the three rings he would probably do just that. Can you imagine what power he would have by enslaving Elrond and Galadriel. Orcs were made from Elves so one can only think what Elrond and Galadriel could be turned into when they fell to darkness. (In my opinion they probably would have died first then having their power used for evil but just think about it.)

Olorin_TLA · 10-13-2003, 02:48 PM

I doubt the Rings had vala-"power" in them. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for enslaving, that ddin't require Sauron the have the 3 - quite the opposite! If the Elves wear the 3 whilst Sauron ahs the One, he could control their minds through the Rings: "One Ring to Rule Them All!" If they didn't wear them (including if he got them himself) then that wouldn't happen.

Secret Fire · 10-13-2003, 05:35 PM

I wasn't saying that they had "vala power" (ask for it at your nearest super market) at all, but that the elves made them as a representation of the most powerful vala, or at least those with whom they were most closely related as a type of tribute etc.

Lord of Angmar · 10-13-2003, 08:42 PM

I think that the Three Elven Rings would probably be useless for any purpose, good or evil, if Sauron had won a victory over Middle Earth. They were made by the Elves and thus would probably either die with the Elves or become useless to any new bearer. Or, just as Morgoth was burned by the Silmarils, perhaps they would have an ill effect on Sauron if he put them on. This theory I doubt very much, however. I think their becoming useless would probably be the most likely occurrence.

Quote:

Would they accelerate the decay of time, to bring the world to an end, and accelerate Morgoth's return?

I do not think the Elven Rings would have the power to hasten Morgoth's return, nor to end the world.

10-11-2003, 07:39 PM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	The Three on Sauron's hand We know that the power of the 3 rings is to ward off the decay of time. To keep things unsullied... What effect would the 3 rings have in the hand of Sauron? I think that, for example, Narya would have a terrible effect on the hearts and wills of Sauron's enemies... since Sauron would use the ring to weaken the resolve of his enemies... Any other ideas? What about Vilya and Nenya? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

10-11-2003, 07:42 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Hmmm... interesting topic. I think that if Sauron wielded the Three Elven Rings, they wouldn't work as they would have done with Elven bearers. Since the Elves made them for a specific purpose, to preserve from the decays of time, I don't think Sauron could have really done much with them, except preserve what he created or built. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-12-2003, 07:36 AM	#3
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	The effects would not be the same, of course, but what type of effect would the 3 have then? Because the others made their bearers phantoms or really greedy... But what about the 3? Would they accelerate the decay of time, to bring the world to an end, and accelerate Morgoth's return? Just a thought... __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

10-12-2003, 08:31 AM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	As I said in my post, I think that they would probably prolong the life of all of Sauron's creations, but would "freeze" Mordor as it was when Sauron recovered the Rings, as Nenya did to Lothlorien. Unless Sauron could completely change their purpose, I don't think they would accelerate anything, especially destruction, since that was what the Elves wanted to prevent when they created the Rings. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-12-2003, 12:15 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	If he had recovered the One Ring, he wouldn't have been able to use the Three for his own purposes, but the minds of their bearers would have been laid bare before him. He would have been able to know whatever their Bearers were thinking, which is in itself, worse than death. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-12-2003, 11:32 AM	#5
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	Couldn't he use them to his own if he recovered the one? Or could he just see the thoughts & conrtrol those who wore them?

10-12-2003, 05:21 PM	#7
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	The slowing of time is in Tolkien's view (and thereofre in LotR the onyl improtant view [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) a minor sin...if Sauron got his hands on these things he'd make them a much bigger sin. Probably use them to permanatly coat his lands in torment and evil...as if they werne;t already. Good question. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

10-13-2003, 02:09 AM	#8
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	Gandalf used his ring to 'kindle fire in the hearts of Sauron's enymies', or something like that. Maybe Sauron could use it to kindle fire in the hearts of his servants, so that they would even fight harder and fearcer for him? And the other two, had they not power of water and air? Imagine what Sauron could do with those elements, combined with the power of his One Ring! __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

10-13-2003, 08:12 AM	#9
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Now that I think about it, if Sauron had Vilya and Nenya, perhaps he could turn those elements against his enemies, and use them as weapons. The only problem with that theory is, since the Nazgul were afraid of fire and water, both being elements closely governed by Valar, couldn't Sauron have also been afraid of them? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-13-2003, 09:40 AM	#11
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	Never read anything about Sauron being afraid of water or wind. But maybe he still was afraid of water after his "Númenor Adventure" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] He may even have had the same nightmares as the Professor had! __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

10-13-2003, 11:41 AM	#12
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] !!! Seriously though..well, I doubt he liked floods anymore [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] but seeing as he owned Minas Tirith in the 1st Age, which was on an island, I doubt water worried him...and seeing as he has the whole burning-like-fire and Mount Doom eruptions thing going on, I doubt fire is abd either. Actually: Mordor must be Hell (or Udun!) for the Nazgs! Imagine being near that huge mountain of fire when you fear fire! Nasty __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

10-13-2003, 01:52 PM	#13
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	Sauron was Maya, not man wraith like the Nazgul, so therefore he would not have the same fears as the Nazgul in these regards, and their fear of them is mostly because fire scattered their vision at night (not to mention burning their cloaks) and water is controlled by Ulmo (or at least his Mayar helpers) who had not forsaken Middle earth and still worked in its favor, they would fear their power. The rings themselves, in my opinion, based more directly on the vala than any others as water is Ulmo's element (actually vai, but that's okay) and air is Manwe's element (vilya and nenya) and the third (narya) was for fire, much parallel to the secret fire that Lluvatar put into his creations, so Narya was more closely related to Lluvatar, perhaps. musings of a fool! __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

10-13-2003, 02:39 PM	#14
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	I am not really sure but I think I read somewhere that Sauron wanted the Elves to make the rings so he could enslave them. If he gained the three rings he would probably do just that. Can you imagine what power he would have by enslaving Elrond and Galadriel. Orcs were made from Elves so one can only think what Elrond and Galadriel could be turned into when they fell to darkness. (In my opinion they probably would have died first then having their power used for evil but just think about it.) __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

10-13-2003, 02:48 PM	#15
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	I doubt the Rings had vala-"power" in them. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] As for enslaving, that ddin't require Sauron the have the 3 - quite the opposite! If the Elves wear the 3 whilst Sauron ahs the One, he could control their minds through the Rings: "One Ring to Rule Them All!" If they didn't wear them (including if he got them himself) then that wouldn't happen. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

10-13-2003, 05:35 PM	#16
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	I wasn't saying that they had "vala power" (ask for it at your nearest super market) at all, but that the elves made them as a representation of the most powerful vala, or at least those with whom they were most closely related as a type of tribute etc. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?