Man behind the Mythology - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Turambar · 10-09-2003, 12:57 PM

*bump*

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-09-2003, 01:41 PM

Tolkien was referring to a common dislike of what he calls "...meddling with the Primary World, or such small glimpses of it as are familiar to them." He was describing a dislike of fantastic literature on the basis of its failure faithfully to portray the world in which we live: the very "arresting strangeness" which he regarded as a natural advantage of the form.

As one might expect, he says this in his lecture and essay On Fairy-Stories (1939), in which he explores various perceptions of 'fantasy' and challenges the common view that fairy-stories are products of escapism.

[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

Bêthberry · 10-09-2003, 02:40 PM

Right you are, Old Boy."On Fairie Tales" it is. People dislike fantasy, presuming it to be mere dreaming and hallucination which lack the Art and control of fantasy. In other words, they don't like something which challenges their familiar, preconceived little worlds.

You have the floor. Or the thread. Or the challege. As it may be.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-09-2003, 03:00 PM

I take up your cast gage with pleasure, Bethberry. How did 'Beren' meet 'Luthien'?

Bêthberry · 10-13-2003, 07:13 AM

They met, if Carpenter has his facts right, Squatter, at a sort of rooming house for orphans. 37 Duchess Road, Birmingham.

Tolkien's guardian, Father Francis, believed he and his brother were not happy with his Aunt B, and so Father Francis found them lodgings with Mrs. Faulkner, who gave musical soirees which some of the Fathers attended.

On the first floor, beneath the two boys' bedroom, lodged a pretty young orphan girl with some talent at the piano. Edith Bratt.

He was sixteen, she was nineteen. What more need be said?

Bêthberry

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-13-2003, 07:24 AM

That's what I was looking for. Your turn.

Bêthberry · 10-13-2003, 07:57 AM

Thank-you, Squatter.

Tolkien had a very specific sense of Magic. What was it? (And, to be fair, I should say I am thinking particularly of the Letters here.)

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-20-2003, 12:57 PM

In his draft of a letter to Naomi Mitchison (Nr. 155), Tolkien says

Quote:

A difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.

He adds that magic as used by Gandalf is artistic, not intended to deceive. Is that what you have in mind?

Bêthberry · 10-20-2003, 01:39 PM

Good digging! That's not the specific letter I had in mind, but it will do. Here is the passage I was thinking of, from Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (p. 146 in my paperback edition):

Quote:

I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to reonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word [ie magic] both for the devices and operations of the Enemy,and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal' , at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problem: that this freightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others--speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans--is a recurrent motive.

And so, Ms Telcontar, I pass the challenge on to you.

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-20-2003, 02:05 PM

Here's a rather straightforward question: Which of Tolkien's children were able to be with him when he died?

Telchar · 11-01-2003, 07:03 PM

My memory might fail me, but I think it was his daughter, Pricilla Anne...

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-02-2003, 12:07 AM

That's half of the right answer, Telchar...

Telchar · 11-02-2003, 09:02 AM

OK - it Might be that someone else can have the other half of the answer because I seriously do not have a clue... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Telchar ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-03-2003, 01:51 AM

Ah, nice try, Telch! Unfortunately not Michael - Carpenter writes in the biography:

Quote:

It so happened that Michael was on holiday in Switzerland and ______ in France...

Two more guesses - good thing Tolkien had only four children, eh?! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Child of the 7th Age · 11-03-2003, 08:38 AM

Michael was on holiday in Switzerland and Christopher in France....but John and Priscilla were able to come down to Bournemouth to be with him. The first reports were optomistic but then a chest infection developed and he died shortly after. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

(I feel a bit guilty trailing in with this at the tail end after Telchar got the first half right......!)

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-03-2003, 10:35 AM

All's fair in love and quiz, Child - and welcome to the thread! You're right, of course - we look forward to your question.

Child of the 7th Age · 11-03-2003, 03:33 PM

How about this?

Tolkien began the translation of three medieval poems; part of his work went back as early as the 1920s. These poems were published posthumously in 1975, although Tolkien himself felt they had never been completed to his own satisfaction.

What are the names of the three poems?

Bêthberry · 11-03-2003, 03:36 PM

Child,

Would you be referring to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo?

Child of the 7th Age · 11-03-2003, 04:46 PM

Bethberry,

Whoa! You're fast. That took exactly three minutes! Is that a record?

(Maybe we should give out "prizes".)

You have the floor now....

Child

Gwaihir the Windlord · 11-06-2003, 02:21 AM

That's not a record [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Bêthberry · 11-06-2003, 09:57 AM

Thank you,Child. I just happened to be online when you posted your challenge, and, well, I do love literature. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Now, for the next one:

What position or job did Tolkien hold in the 11th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers, "B" company?

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-06-2003, 10:49 AM

He was commissioned as a second lieutenant.

Bêthberry · 11-06-2003, 11:01 AM

Ah, hmm. Esty, I wasn't thinking so much of his rank as what it was he did. Want to try again?

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-06-2003, 11:29 PM

He was the battalion signalling officer. Is that what you're looking for?

Carpenter says:

Quote:

...the prospect of dealing with words, messages, and codes was more appealing than the drudgery and responsibility of commanding a platoon. So he learnt Morse code, flag and disc signalling, the transmission of messages by heliograph and lamp, the use of signal-rockets and field-telephones, and even how to handle carrier pigeons...

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

Bêthberry · 11-07-2003, 08:01 AM

Indeed, Ms Telcontar, that was what I had in mind. Strikes me as almost cruelly prescient that he would have that job.

Ask on, Estelyn, ask on.

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-07-2003, 11:16 AM

Here's a nice bit of trivia I discovered - which American president's daughter wrote to Tolkien, asking him for an autograph?

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2003, 08:26 AM

Anyone care to guess this answer? I know the source isn't quite as common as Carpenter's biography, but it's not difficult - there weren't really that many US presidents with daughters during the 60's! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Turambar · 11-13-2003, 09:17 AM

OK - Kennedy's daughter ?

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2003, 09:35 AM

nope

Turambar · 11-13-2003, 10:50 AM

Well then, Nixon's? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2003, 11:19 AM

Again, I must regretfully answer "no". Keep going! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 11-13-2003, 11:31 AM

Lyndon Johnson's daughter?

(If it's not him, there's only one left [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2003, 11:51 AM

Right president - daughter's name? [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Turambar · 11-13-2003, 12:21 PM

Luci ?

**The Saucepan Man** · 11-13-2003, 12:23 PM

Gah, what do I know of US Presidents' daughters?! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks to google, I know that he had two daughters, so I'll go for Lucy (Luci?). [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Edit: Double Gah! Spent too much time on Google! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ November 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Edit 2: Triple Gah! Wrong daughter.

Mind you, I hate to be pedantic, but the original question was:

Quote:

which American president's daughter wrote to Tolkien, asking him for an autograph?

requiring that the President, rather than his daughter be identified. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2003, 12:54 PM

Both wrong - sorry, but even guessing has to produce the correct answer! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Beren87 · 11-13-2003, 02:00 PM

His other daugher, Ly(i)nda.

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2003, 03:39 PM

That's the one, Beren. Daniel Grotta-Kurska writes in his biography J.R.R.Tolkien, Architect of Middle Earth about the flood of mail that was sent to Tolkien:

Quote:

The letters came from such diverse places as the White House (President Johnson's daughter Lynda Bird asking for an autograph), royalty, composers wishing to set Tolkien's works to music, blind octogenerians, and prisoners.

Beren87 · 11-14-2003, 07:32 AM

Ah.

What did Tolkien receive from the Queen in '72?

Mariska Greenleaf · 11-14-2003, 08:05 AM

He recieved the title CBE (= commander of the Order of the British Empire)

10-09-2003, 12:57 PM	#81
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	bump __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

10-09-2003, 01:41 PM	#82
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Tolkien was referring to a common dislike of what he calls "...meddling with the Primary World, or such small glimpses of it as are familiar to them." He was describing a dislike of fantastic literature on the basis of its failure faithfully to portray the world in which we live: the very "arresting strangeness" which he regarded as a natural advantage of the form. As one might expect, he says this in his lecture and essay On Fairy-Stories (1939), in which he explores various perceptions of 'fantasy' and challenges the common view that fairy-stories are products of escapism. [ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ] __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

10-09-2003, 02:40 PM	#83
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Right you are, Old Boy."On Fairie Tales" it is. People dislike fantasy, presuming it to be mere dreaming and hallucination which lack the Art and control of fantasy. In other words, they don't like something which challenges their familiar, preconceived little worlds. You have the floor. Or the thread. Or the challege. As it may be. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-09-2003, 03:00 PM	#84
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I take up your cast gage with pleasure, Bethberry. How did 'Beren' meet 'Luthien'? __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

10-13-2003, 07:13 AM	#85
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	They met, if Carpenter has his facts right, Squatter, at a sort of rooming house for orphans. 37 Duchess Road, Birmingham. Tolkien's guardian, Father Francis, believed he and his brother were not happy with his Aunt B, and so Father Francis found them lodgings with Mrs. Faulkner, who gave musical soirees which some of the Fathers attended. On the first floor, beneath the two boys' bedroom, lodged a pretty young orphan girl with some talent at the piano. Edith Bratt. He was sixteen, she was nineteen. What more need be said? Bêthberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-13-2003, 07:24 AM	#86
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	That's what I was looking for. Your turn. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

10-13-2003, 07:57 AM	#87
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Thank-you, Squatter. Tolkien had a very specific sense of Magic. What was it? (And, to be fair, I should say I am thinking particularly of the Letters here.) __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-20-2003, 02:05 PM	#90
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Here's a rather straightforward question: Which of Tolkien's children were able to be with him when he died? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-01-2003, 07:03 PM	#91
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	My memory might fail me, but I think it was his daughter, Pricilla Anne... __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

11-02-2003, 12:07 AM	#92
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	That's half of the right answer, Telchar... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-02-2003, 09:02 AM	#93
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	OK - it Might be that someone else can have the other half of the answer because I seriously do not have a clue... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ November 02, 2003: Message edited by: Telchar ] __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

11-03-2003, 08:38 AM	#95
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Michael was on holiday in Switzerland and Christopher in France....but John and Priscilla were able to come down to Bournemouth to be with him. The first reports were optomistic but then a chest infection developed and he died shortly after. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] (I feel a bit guilty trailing in with this at the tail end after Telchar got the first half right......!) __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

11-03-2003, 10:35 AM	#96
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	All's fair in love and quiz, Child - and welcome to the thread! You're right, of course - we look forward to your question. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-03-2003, 03:33 PM	#97
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	How about this? Tolkien began the translation of three medieval poems; part of his work went back as early as the 1920s. These poems were published posthumously in 1975, although Tolkien himself felt they had never been completed to his own satisfaction. What are the names of the three poems? __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

11-03-2003, 03:36 PM	#98
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Child, Would you be referring to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-03-2003, 04:46 PM	#99
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Bethberry, Whoa! You're fast. That took exactly three minutes! Is that a record? (Maybe we should give out "prizes".) You have the floor now.... Child __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

11-06-2003, 02:21 AM	#100
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	That's not a record [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

11-06-2003, 09:57 AM	#101
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Thank you,Child. I just happened to be online when you posted your challenge, and, well, I do love literature. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Now, for the next one: What position or job did Tolkien hold in the 11th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers, "B" company? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-06-2003, 10:49 AM	#102
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	He was commissioned as a second lieutenant. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-06-2003, 11:01 AM	#103
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Ah, hmm. Esty, I wasn't thinking so much of his rank as what it was he did. Want to try again? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-07-2003, 08:01 AM	#105
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Indeed, Ms Telcontar, that was what I had in mind. Strikes me as almost cruelly prescient that he would have that job. Ask on, Estelyn, ask on. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-07-2003, 11:16 AM	#106
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Here's a nice bit of trivia I discovered - which American president's daughter wrote to Tolkien, asking him for an autograph? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-13-2003, 08:26 AM	#107
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Anyone care to guess this answer? I know the source isn't quite as common as Carpenter's biography, but it's not difficult - there weren't really that many US presidents with daughters during the 60's! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-13-2003, 09:17 AM	#108
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	OK - Kennedy's daughter ? __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

11-13-2003, 09:35 AM	#109
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	nope __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-13-2003, 10:50 AM	#110
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	Well then, Nixon's? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

11-13-2003, 11:19 AM	#111
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Again, I must regretfully answer "no". Keep going! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-13-2003, 11:31 AM	#112
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Lyndon Johnson's daughter? (If it's not him, there's only one left [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

11-13-2003, 11:51 AM	#113
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Right president - daughter's name? [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-13-2003, 12:21 PM	#114
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	Luci ? __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

11-13-2003, 12:54 PM	#116
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Both wrong - sorry, but even guessing has to produce the correct answer! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-13-2003, 02:00 PM	#117
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	His other daugher, Ly(i)nda.

11-14-2003, 07:32 AM	#119
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Ah. What did Tolkien receive from the Queen in '72?

11-14-2003, 08:05 AM	#120
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	He recieved the title CBE (= commander of the Order of the British Empire) __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.