The War of the Rohirrim: Anime Middle-earth

[Huinesoron]

Yes, really.

New Line are working on a new LotR film, in continuity with the Jackson movies. Philippa Boyens, co-writer of the Jackson trilogy, is on as consultant. They've got the writers of Netflix's Dark Crystal series.

Aaaand it's an anime about Helm Hammerhand and that time Rohan got conquered by Dunland and its king turned into an icicle.

I mean... I guess, given that New Line are still running under the old "Hobbit + LotR + Appendices" license (unlike Amazon), Helm isn't a bad choice. His story is one of the more fleshed-out, and takes place over maybe a year or so - so it's easier to make a tidy plot out of than the Fall of Arnor and of the Line of Kings in Gondor, which spans three generations. But it's still kind of a weird choice.

Given the 'continuity with Jackson' claim, should we start a betting pool on which characters will randomly make an appearance? I'm betting on Legolas and Figwit (is he Lindir now?) leading an army from Rivendell. Which will include at least one Hobbit.

(Given the timing, and the 'is on the fast-track' description, I wonder if they're aiming for a release in December for the 20th anniversary of Fellowship...?)

hS

[Inziladun]

Oh, lovely.

Maybe they at least have some justification for gratuitous violence, what with Helm punching Freca to death, and killing many others similarly.

[Galadriel55]

I love the legend of Helm Hammerhand. I would love to see a movie adaptation, and would be willing to forgive a lot of plot and stylistic inaccuracy.

...But the two of you just made me realize just how much rubbish can be put into it as well, and now I am sad and conflicted.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I may well watch this- in the same mode as that in which I watch Reefer Madness and Plan 9 From Outer Space.

(BTW, using Philippa Boyens as a script consultant is not unlike hiring the f/x guy from the original Star Trek series. Her writing is comparable to the Gorn's rubber suit.)

[Formendacil]

I am cautiously, well, not optimistic exactly (I wasn't that in 2000 and have yet to be given any reason to change my stance re: adaptations), but I am curious to see how well this does relative to the Amazon series and simply by its presentation of WHAT the subject matter is, i.e. a clearly delineated story from the Appendices rather than "the Second Age," I am more hopeful here than I am there.

I also have something of a default instinct--founded on what, I don't know--that animation is a superior medium into which one could adapt a fantasy novel. We'll see if that is given any evidence here.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

My first thought upon learning about this was that they might do a lot of very "overepic" and, yes, sadly violence-centered shots (what Inzil said about punching Freca to death).

Anything is of course possible. They might go a completely different way. But I somehow think that this could easily be Tolkien in nothing but a name: the focus being only on war; yes, perhaps in the spirit of old sagas, but lacking the elements that are central to Tolkien (or in other words, swapping the margins for the centre). Not realising that Tolkien may have used the elements of forms of old warrior-sagas, but that the spirit is something completely different. That the focus is not on war and honour for the sake of honour, but on so much more, like mercy, beauty, loss, hope...

Anyway, my subconscious apparently came up with yet a different take on how this might go in a dream I recently had.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(BTW, using Philippa Boyens as a script consultant is not unlike hiring the f/x guy from the original Star Trek series. Her writing is comparable to the Gorn's rubber suit.)

I'm glad I wasn't sipping my beer when I read that.


As far as the War of the Rohirrim project. there has been some ridicule in the usual fece-stains on the internet about Mûmakil appearing in it. It actually isn't a really far reach as far as the souece material goes. From Appendix A in the section 'Stewards':

'In the days of Beren, the ninteenth Steward, an even greater peril came upon Gondor. Three great fleets, long prepared, came up from Umbar and the Harad, and assailed the coasts of Gondor in great force; and the enemy made many landings, even as far north as the mouth of the Isen. At the time Rohan was assailed from the west and the east, and the land was overrun, and they were driven into the dales of the White Mountains. In that year (2758) the Long Winter began with cold and great snows out of the north and the east which lasted for almost five months. Helm of Rohan and both his sons perished in that war, and there was misery and death in Eriador and in Rohan. But in Gondor south of the mountains things were less evil, and before spring came Beregond son of Beren had overcome the invaders. At once he sent aid to Rohan. He was the greatest captain that had arisen in Gondor since Boromir; and when he succeeded his father (2763) Gondor began to recover its strength. But Rohan was slower to be healed of the hurts that it had received. It was for this reason that Beren welcomed Saruman, and gave to him the keys of Orthanc; and from that year on (2759) Saruman dwelt in Isengard.'

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

It actually isn't a really far reach as far as the souece material goes. From Appendix A in the section 'Stewards':

Okay, but now I really want to see the kind of ship you'd build to carry an AT-AT sized Oliphaunt.

Also, I love this for the implication that fighting giant elephants was something the Rohirrim had a) done before and b) developed a plan for. I'm imagining Eomer watching as they appear outside Minas Tirith, and his eyes light up. "By Béma... we've been waiting for this for three hundred years!"

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hannibal only had to ship his across the Strait of Gibraltar.... and they weren't much bigger than big horses. Oh, and they all froze to death.

[Boromir88]

I doubt anyone would go in with the expectation this will be "faithful" to the source material, seeing Boyens' involvement, and Newline's.

Having said that, it is a subject matter, or story pulled out of the Appendices that I do find interesting. I'd be most curious to see how they handle Helm's character, if the creators decide to gloss over his racism against the Dunlandings.

Jackson, in TTT, barely covers the Dunlandings, I recall a short scene where Saruman is rousing them up about the "horsemen taking their lands." It's not really broached in the books either, Gamling mentions Saruman is fueling their old hatred, but that's all I can recall.

[Snowdog]

Huin, I have no idea what you refer to when you say "an AT-AT sized Oliphaunt."

Pretty sure the Mariners of Umbar figured it out as they 'long-prepared' their fleet.

... and Will, seriously? You expect absolute realism in a mythical world? Unbelievable.

Boromir88, so far, I have yet to see exactly where it hasn't been faithful to any source material, which I have quoted in part. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

Huin, I have no idea what you refer to when you say "an AT-AT sized Oliphaunt."

I'm referring to the very very large Mumakil of the Jackson movies, by way of the AT-AT. I think the comparison originated with Philosopher@Large back in the day. The concept art Mumak seems to be the same design.

(By some very quick maths - the Romans had very large ships which could carry 800-ton obelisks. Using the approximation that any animal is roughly the density of water, and that 1 m3 of water = 1 ton, I estimate from this image that a Jackson Mumak is about 10m long and 6m around the body, so about 300-400 tons. So you could just about do it - but I wouldn't want to take it onto rough seas!)

hS

[Snowdog]

I'm still looking forward to it as I am Rings of Power. Peter Jackson cleared the way for making whatever changes one wishes in visual adaptations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I'm still looking forward to it as I am Rings of Power. Peter Jackson cleared the way for making whatever changes one wishes in visual adaptations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And they say 'slippery slope' arguments are invalid.....

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

And they say 'slippery slope' arguments are invalid.....

Who is "they"?

[Boromir88]

I'm actually more interested in this story than the Rings of Power.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...heonering-net/

Could be good diving into Helm's decisions, and the grievances the Dunlendings had.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm actually more interested in this story than the Rings of Power.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...heonering-net/

Could be good diving into Helm's decisions, and the grievances the Dunlendings had.

Yeah this will be pretty good. A long haul to April 2024 though.

[Huinesoron]

We got a trailer! With actual footage and everything!

It is...

... how can I put this...

... a seemingly-accurate retelling of the tale of Helm Hammerhand, with the addition of a) mumakil and b) the daughter of Helm (canonically unnamed but pivotal, here named Hèra which fits better than most of the RoP names and is apparently Icelandic), who appears to have dropped straight out of a Miyazaki/Ghibli movie.

... but on reading the Wikipedia article they have put a lot of thought into her. She's apparently based on Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians, who fought off the Vikings for seven years. She's still extremely anime (in the trailer, at least), but seems to be more than the RoP style generic fantasy dartboard characters.

Also: narration by Miranda Otto as Eowyn! Because if Eowyn had a favourite historical person, it would 100% be Helm's shieldmaiden daughter, huge anime eyes aside.

Release is set for 13 December, so I guess December is Middle-earth Movie Month again!

hS

[Snowdog]

Yeah, it looks alright. Didn't care for the half a minute lead-in from the twenty year old PJ movies. Not sure what that was about other than PJ wanting to say he is still relevant I guess. Maybe to remind/get the interest from casual fans.

The story fits pretty much within the lines of canon, which being a few pages of an appendix leaves a lot of leeway with the creative license/fanfic story.

I watched the Japanese trailer which was somewhat different, and has an unexplained appearance of Saruman in it. I'll go watch it once at least.

[Tar Elenion]

"It was at the crowning of Fréaláf that Saruman appeared, bringing gifts, and speaking great praise of the valour of the Rohirrim."
App. A

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

"It was at the crowning of Fréaláf that Saruman appeared, bringing gifts, and speaking great praise of the valour of the Rohirrim."
App. A

Yes, I know it's explained in the appendix, just not in the one second he appears in the trailer.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

... but on reading the Wikipedia article they have put a lot of thought into her. She's apparently based on Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians, who fought off the Vikings for seven years.

Except Aethelflaed wasn't out swinging a sword. Like many "warrior" queens (Elizabeth I, Elizabeth the Great, Galadriel) she had a keen mind for strategy, but wasn't personally bashing people with cutlery. I'm not sure if I can come up with a historical warrior queen in Europe, although frankly we don't know enough about Boudicca to say one way or the other (sorry, Vikings fans, Lagertha was legendary)

[Snowdog]

Heading off to see this Saturday afternoon. It will be a fun fanfic.

[Galadriel55]

Will see it too - though after watching the trailer I am no longer hopeful about the story. The one thing it does promise though is a bunch of nerdy references.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Will see it too - though after watching the trailer I am no longer hopeful about the story. The one thing it does promise though is a bunch of nerdy references.

I was hopeful it would be a decent adaptation of a couple pages of Appendix A, and for the most part it was.

Saw it yesterday. I liked it. I give it 3½ out of 5 stars. A worthy addition to the Middle Earth media, but not without its problems.
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War of the Rohirrim managed to keep their crayons pretty much inside the canonical lines of the couple pages of Appendix A that covers Helm Hammerhand and family. It handled fairly the major characters of the story... Helm, even though they turned the initial aggressor around; the brothers Haleth and Háma, cousin Fréaláf, Freca, who was made out to start the fight with Helm; and Wulf ... though despite a fair start for Wulf; he was soon reduced to a rage-boy edge-lord who wouldn't listen to General Targg, his older, wiser advisor and chief commander (I will give creditto him for organizing the alliances between the all Dunlending hill-clans, and the Haradrim).

The added little bits of development to some of the characters were different than how I see them, but this is PJ Boyens and co backing the project. Háma for instance was a bard, which I liked as a character-trait addition, and he seemed more culturally immersed than Haleth, his big brother and heir to the throne. It sort of had that Boromir/Faramir relationship vibe between them sans the hateful father bit. Helm loved all his children. Háma does get shortchanged with his capture and death I thought.

The depiction of 'the long winter' was good, and I liked what they did in portraying the Hornburg. The Eagles were a nice touch as well... it wasn't too far-fetched from PJ's Tolkien world. I worried the whole 'wraith' concept that was mentioned in the trailer would be a bone of contention, but it worked. He was only thought of as a wraith by the Dunlendings when he raided their camps in the snowy frozen nights. As far as Saruman goes, you see all there is in the Japanese trailer. They used a line spoken by Christopher Lee from his filmings decades earlier, and it was well done.

The story gets a bit reachy with the introduction of the Southrons and the Mûmakil. Outside of a question being asked "What are Southrons doing this far north?". There is no mention of how they got that far north, or how they managed to become allies with Wulf, etc. They just kind of 'appear' with Wulf's army of Dunlending hill-clans.

The animation was good for the most part. There were few noticeable flaws that shown through. The worst one of note was a dancing Mûmakil in the background during Wulf's attack on Edoras. It was more a nitpicky thing, and may have been amplified by my watching it at IMAX. Then again, maybe it was a hat-tip to Ralph Bakshi and his Lord of the Rings animated project of 1978? Who knows.

Ok, Héra... they had a blank slate to turn Helm's 'unnamed daughter' and youngest child of Helm, into a good deep character... and this is what they came up with? No serious complaints on my part really. She just seemed ... flat ... two-dimensional. She was the primary character of the movie, and she portrays the part well for the most part, but I think there could have been... more ... to her.

The movie starts out with her riding free in the mountains and communing with eagles, and she has the whole cliché 'rebellious young daughter' vibe coming in to Edoras. She gets along with her brothers, and of course she is 'protected' and the whole Éowynesque 'I can fight' when not allowed to go to war by the king thing going on. Héra is central to the movie's storyline all through, yet I had a hard time feeling anything for her. Some of the minor characters had deeper development. She is just ... so perfect from start to finish, with little to no emotion or character development or flaws. She fits the definition, even if she is more 'girl' then 'boss'. At the end, she seemed to not really be bothered much by the death of her father and brothers. She just ... rode away happy onto some adventure and that was the end of it. No real major complaints; just seemed there should have been ... more. More feeling and depth to her since she was their central major protagonist original character of the movie.

As for the whole Order of the Shieldmaidens thing mentioned in the movie, it was just a loose string they hung on the wall. It didn't really come into play in the story other than alluding to Héra's maid having been a 'shieldmaiden'. Elora developed a concept of a Rhovanion/Rohirrim Order of the Shieldmaidens from a roleplay-turned-fanfic starting in 2011. Also, they mapped the look of Héra to an original character 'Freja Fireborn' that was created in 2015 or earlier.

[Galadriel55]

SPOILERS.





SPOILERS.






SPOILERS.







SPOILERS.





Ok, you get the point.

I saw the movie with my husband this weekend... we both came out somewhat disappointed - he more so than I because at least I had the enjoyment of Tolkien references which were actually pretty good. Fortunately for me, I came with rather low expectations of their character portrayals, so although the movie is quite flat on that count, it lacked the power to sour my day. What I did not expect was how boring it got in the middle, and how disjointed and random the different story bits would be. I am going to try to organize my thoughts by topic.

Trueness to Tolkien
Probably my favourite element, and gets a 4.5/5. The right key characters are there (Helm's family, Wulf, etc), and even end up in the right geographical locations. Haleth and Hama die slightly differently than in the book (and I have a bone to pick with how the deaths were done int he anime), but I didn't mind the plot change of itself. The Easterlings too I didn't mind, because we know Wulf was joined by enemies of Gondor who landed in the mouths of Isen. I slightly mind the mumakil, because 1) it takes the characters basically no learning to figure out how to deal with these gargantuan monsters, and 2) it breaks the LOTR battles - if the Rohirrim had encountered (and even defeated) a bunch of mumakil in this legendary battle, then their ancestors on Pelennor fields should have an inkling of that and shouldn't be re-learning how to deal with war elephants. The made-up characters are not impossible, they do a fair job of fitting in organically into the world-lore.

The Eagles I both mind and don't mind. I don't mind the attitude ("it is said that the Great Eagles understand the tongue of men" - or something to that extent), but mind that the Eagles somehow had to save the day anyways, and very much minded that there is an eyrie right above Helm's deep.

The Wizards. Nice touch and quite canonical, but they got the roles reversed somewhat. There are multiple ways you can introduce Saruman, and you can absolutely name-drop Gandalf. But of the two you can't have Gandalf as the one searching after Ring-lore. It should have been Saruman. I thought the Gandalf name-dropping was too much in that context, the one time I did not like an attempt at a reference. What they could have done is reversed the two - name-dropped Saruman who is inviting Hera to tell him about the Ring-seeking Orcs, and shown a glimpse of Gandalf (who might even go anonymous here, but we know who he is - buddying up with every race on the continent!).

Occasionally, there would be a reference to bits of Tolkien text here and there - "Where is the horse and the rider" makes a cameo, the Oliphaunt poem is alluded to. A+ for this.

At times I felt like the geography was somewhat muddled, and part of me wanted to rewatch the film with a map in hand to cross-check their locations - but it was so tedious that I don't think I am up for that task anytime soon.

Occasional little inaccuracies - I believe they said the Hornburg was renamed as Helm's Deep, mixing up the coomb and the keep. Or things to do with how a medieval army functions, which Tolkien would have gotten so on point and they did not (e.g. "Muster the Rohirrim!" - sorry bro, the muster should have happened days or weeks ago, what you mean now is to assemble whatever fighters you have). Nitpicky - yes, but also such an easy thing to get perfect.

Overall though, I quite enjoyed the Tolkien references, and maintain that its attempt to stick to the letter of the text while filling in the gaps is its best point and makes a good premise for a fanfic adaptation.


Music
4/5. On the one hand, they used the Howard Shore score from TTT, the Rohan themes, and that score is amazing. On the other hand, they had no good new music to add to it.


Visuals
3/5, but I am biased as I am not a fan of anime to begin with. Would have preferred fights which take laws of physics into account a little more (anyone else know people who leap at their enemies and fall from twice their own height?), but that I can forgive as an element of the medium. More than than I was bothered by the faces, which seemed flat and seemed to have poor transitions between expressions. Wulf's scar also seems to disappear sometimes. One thing I found really cool was in the beginning when they turned the map into a 3D map and then real mountains, that transition was well done.


Characters
Hoo boy. 2/5, and I am being generous. This is what I can least forgive. There is no character development to anyone. There is no character build-up to anyone. And Helm is frankly massacarred. But let's go one by one.

Hera - like Snowdog said, especially as she is the main character, she is so flat. She is given a brief characterization at the beginning, similar to Brave. You see a wild adventurous tomboyish girl, and the start of a conflict where birth and parents are restricting her wildness and directing her to duties she perhaps doesn't want to pursue. But that's where it ends. What can we add to her character as it changed over the course of the story? Does she become wiser? Humbler? Braver? Gentler? Stronger? You don't really see anything. What she was is how she stayed. I can't help but compare this to Brave, which in my opinion does this type of story so well. This ties a lot with the plot of the story, but make the plot so that Hera has the opportunity to evolve, not just keep displaying the same basic traits which were already established in the first 5 minutes. She has a conflict with her father, where she believes he is overprotective and is deaf to her saying she does not want to play the game of alliance-making via marriage (to which all royal children ever are subjected, so how was that any surprise to her?); the conflict is at a stalemate until just before his death Helm basically tells her she was right all along. She doesn't get to learn to temper personal desire with duty, she doesn't get to learn to be afraid of scary things, she doesn't get to learn that her father had reasons for how he acted. She doesn't get to learn how to be a leader - or, in fact, be a leader. I don't see any leadership qualities in her, she never got to evolve them - even when by the plot she is supposed to be the one people default to for guidance. It's a plot vs character dissonance. The one conflict/relationship Hera has which somewhat stands ground is her and Wulf, where she is able to look at Wulf's obsession sufficiently impersonally to play into it just the right way. Then, the siege ends, and she is basically back where she was in the beginning. Nothing changed!

Helm - not the main character of this film, but the main hero of the story. Helm, I am so sorry for how poorly you were treated by this film. Now, Helm is someone who is a formidable leader, and has been so for years. You don't cross Helm. He doesn't have to be a wise and understanding ruler, he is totally allowed to be somewhat brash - without compromising his strength of character, his inner steel. What do we get instead? A man who is strict instead of stern, who is apologetic instead of being confident, and whose only decision in the entire film is to insist that Hera would someday marry somewhere abroad. He doesn't show any leadership qualities, he shows no confidence, and he comes across as a tyrannical madman. When he punches Freca, why does he look scared and apologetic that he killed the guy? He's supposed to own it! Freca is the one out of line, Freca needed to know that you don't cross the king, and the king is badass. And when Wulf draws his sword, he should have been outnumbered in a jiffy - because how dare he raise his arms against his king. When the battle starts, I would really like to see Helm actually do something to change the course of battle. Instead, it seems that it flows around him, and he is just borne on the flow. In the Hornburg, I would like to see him be a leader to his people; he should be the one to put away his grief for his son(s) to fulfil his duty as their king. He should be the one organizing defenses, counting supplies, maintaining discipline and morale - and slowly succumbing to despair as his hope fades, as he sees the rations running low and his people dying and no light at the end of the tunnel. What do we get instead? He is stricken by grief and helpless from the very start, and goes from being bedridden from grief to being the wraith - where he apparently spends 3+ nights outside with no food or shelter? Then proceeds to heroically die defending gates which he could have totally hidden behind and lived with no sacrifice to anyone else, freezing in the "Chaaaarge!" pose which is apparently supposed to look heroic - except then you wonder how long he had to hold that pose to actually freeze in it, which makes it kinda stupid.

Haleth, Hama, and Frealaf - developed well enough for secondary characters. There is also no development to them, but as secondary characters it's not critical. Kinda hate How Helm treats Frealaf; it again showcases Frealaf as a calm and wise person, but (again) showcases Helm as a madman tyrant. Don't understand why Hama as the king's son has such a crappy horse. A few other thoughts but in the ream of nitpicking and of minor significance. Overall - paints 2D characters, as opposed to 1D background nameless people, but don't mind it here as much as for the main guys.

The shieldmaiden lady's maid - don't even know her name. However, she probably has the best backstory and most character out of all of them. Implied to be one of the shieldmaidens, has both mentor and servant to Hera (though I wish they explored that more - Hera would at least have someone she listens to), has a theme of generational passing down of skill, lore, knowledge, identity, etc. She is very much not implausible as a "governess" to a princess of the House of Eorl.

"The Hobbit". Another one whose name I didn't catch the entire movie. Supposedly a teen who is a scribe/announcer, but he looks like a hobbit and talks like a hobbit. Completely generic and serves only to aid in making the plot happen. For the amount of screentime he gets, very little to say with regards to his character.

Wulf - a decent boy, grows up into a youth who may have been decent (or not, hard to really tell) - who then develops into a charismatic adult. Who them becomes progressively blinded by revenge and by his obsession with Hera. Personal revenge and desire to possess the woman who was the catalyst of his misfortunes (and possibly emotional turmoil and rejection too) become all the stronger as his other ambitions come true but come sour. I enjoyed the scene where he sits in the ravaged Meduseld, truly the king of nothing. Very basic and predictable character arc, but at least it is an arc.


Plot
2/5, and my husband, who was not there for the Tolkien but was just watching it as any other movie, would have given it a negative number. The movie tries to fill 2h of screentime from a page and a half of text. Personally, I think that's quite doable. However, their solution is to create lots of filler which is not interconnected, does not add to the story, and sometimes is simply draggy. We were both pretty bored during the siege, which is supposed to be the intense part of the story. The pacing is bad, it doesn't build excitement. And this is the one criticism which is unrelated to "how it was supposed to be" in the books - this is purely commentary on the movie as an independent piece of art. It doesn't stand up independent of the fan-directed references. Which is sad, because it totally had the potential to do so. A few specific things I had thoughts about:

Watcher in the Water. The what? Why? Where? When they first talked about creatures living in a forest, I thought it would be Fangorn Forest and some Ent is going to vine-trap the mumak or something. Then it turns out to be a freaking Watcher slap-bang in the middle of Rohan. Who is not hinted at before, nor after, at any point in the story. And really has no good reason for its existence. That whole sequence is so weird.

Then Hera is captured and carried all the way to the enemy base (in Dunland, right? But it's a fortified base, and Dunlendings were still thought of as Wild Men, so who does this fortification belong to?), unconscious - not bound by anything except a sack over her head. Suuure. She is not simultaneously this fighting whiz, oh no, she could offer them absolutely no resistance that the sack wouldn't take care of, and then she fell asleep out of boredom and didn't wake up from being tossed onto the floor - of the command room, of all places.

Fast forward to the realization about the betrayal of the seneschal person. Can we not see Hera and Heml discover the betrayal simultaneously? Instead, we see it play out from Hera's point of view, and then see the battlefield, where - surprise! or not! - the guy and his army did not show up.

Then, you have to make an arrow-hedgehog out of Helm. Who, by the way, still wears armour and chainmail. Yet later claim that it's no physical wound that keeps him bedridden. Why not just make it one arrow? Not dramatic enough?

And - probably the worst bit - the keep and the siege. Where everything seems to centre on this hag-like housekeeper, who seems slightly mad and completely unnecessary to the story. Again, why? She is side-tracking the filler, she isn't adding to the story in any way. This middle part was frankly boring.

On the topic of the keep and siege, why doesn't any defender ever actually defend it? Not a single shot fired, not a single sortie. All the way up until the finale. You want people to believe how terrible this siege was? Make it believable, show how heroically it was defended.

The wraith story confuses me. Why is it the Rohirrim who start to circulate those rumours? And why does the thought of Helm as a wraith who wipes out their foes scare them? The rumours should really be coming from the Dunlending side, we should see Dunlendings be terrified of Helm's shadow - not Rohirrim whispering about how he might be eating human flesh. It's all backwards.


Themes
2.5/5, mostly because I am not quite sure what the themes are. You could make it about hope, or perseverance, or fulfilling ones duty, or sticking by family - but it takes the viewer's imagination to fill these in, instead of the theme actually coming from the movie. There is definitely a bit of "unhealthy obsession is unhealthy" with Wulf, but this is at most a secondary theme.

Here and there throughout the movie are splattered not particularly veiled hints at that women are undervalued and don't get their rightful due, which is feminism badly done. The voiceover in the beginning in particular is just looking for trouble. Something to the extent of - "a woman was the real hero, but you won't hear any songs of her *hint hint wink wink implication that we are hereby correcting the big bad patriarchy*". Who are you trying to correct? Rohirric society? They don't burn women at the stake for taking up arms, nor are they ashamed to praise women like Eowyn for their battle victories. And you don't need to make an order with a banner to have the idea of very real shieldmaidens - they aren't an army of Amazons, they are what happens when people are attacked, they happen in response to threats to people's lives and livelihoods. Just like most men at that time would not be soldiers, but would take up arms when under threat. Are you trying to correct Tolkien? As in, how dare he only talk about what men did in this story and not what women did in this story, and thus he is slighting women? Have you considered that maybe it's cause women didn't figure sufficiently prominently in this story to merit mention in the 1.5 page text? Because when they do, Tolkien absolutely writes about them. And, sorry to say, but there is more woman-power and independence in Nerdanel refusing to follow Feanor than in all the sword-swinging done by a petulant teenager. It's just a needless barb at imaginary enemies. You wanna tell the story from this unnamed character's perspective, even with a feminist twist - that's a cool idea. No need to get pointy about it, show it rather than tell it. Because, to be honest, after seeing the movie, only a very small portion of Hera's accomplishments can qualify as song-worthy.


Overall Impression
This movie makes me angry. I am angry, because it has the potential to be so much - if only done well. I absolutely love how it sticks quite closely to Tolkien's framework, while doing its own thing in the gaps. I hate that it flops so hard when it comes to the plot and the characters, because I can imagine how with only small changes it could be so much more engaging. I would say that if you come into it with zero prior expectations, you will likely find things of interest, esp the Tolkien, but won't think much of anything else - as it stands, it is just unimpressive. I came into it already expecting crap for characters (at least the trailer is accurate), so that was not as hard of a blow; being prepared to ignore the bad parts, I was able to enjoy the good parts.

Now, I keep saying - if only this or that was done a little differently. On our way home from the theatres, my husband and I kept going over those thoughts, because it's something that wouldn't let you rest. We came up with an outline of essentially this show but as an anime mini-series, which could work so well. I was going to expand on it here, but I realize the post is already a mile long. However, if anyone else is interested in re-making this into an amine which is actually very good, if only in our imaginations, I can throw up a draft.

[Snowdog]

Wow Galadriel, you go in depth! I couldn't be bothered to dig into every irritating thing ... like that whole Watcher in the Water eating a mad Mumakil.

There is believable speculation that Warner Brothers made War of the Rohirrim as a $30 million cost of doing business fee to keep the rights.

[Galadriel55]

That's the thing though. It's just good enough to get your interest - a great idea, a very decent Tolkien effort - but then it flops. It's one thing when the whole thing is completely off mark (*coughROPcough*), then you just shrug and stop watching. But this one actually has so much good potential!

Now, I am not well-versed in movie costs. Is 30M a little? But gotta keep in mind too that it's anime and not live action. However, that is beside the point. Brilliant movoes have been done on a shoestring budget, and expensive movies have been very stupid. The money doesn't make the movie - especially here, where it's more a matter of script writing that makes the difference. Just to illustrate, you could write a more plausible and interconnected sequence to deal with a rabid mumak rather than having a random Watcher there with the exact same screen time and animation effort. A good script is not a question of money.

[Kuruharan]

The important question, of course, is how it stacks up to the Rankin-Bass cartoons.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The important question, of course, is how it stacks up to the Rankin-Bass cartoons.

With some of the flawed animation, I thought it rated in the vicinity of the Bakshi Lord of the Rings.

[Mithadan]

While it has not aged well, I liked the Bakshi version when I saw it decades ago.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

With some of the flawed animation, I thought it rated in the vicinity of the Bakshi Lord of the Rings.

Hmm...interesting. So it doesn't have any of the campy charm of the Rankin-Bass cartoons, then?

Originally Posted by Mithadan

While it has not aged well, I liked the Bakshi version when I saw it decades ago.

I think, repeated milkings of the Giant Cow and seizure inducing flashes of the Shire aside, the Bakshi version wasn't a bad rendition prior to Rivendell.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Hmm...interesting. So it doesn't have any of the campy charm of the Rankin-Bass cartoons, then?

I've only seen the Rankin-Bass ROTK and none of the Bakshi films, so my comparison is rather limited, and I too would be curious to hear what people who actually know the cartoons well have to say. But aside from similarity in the medium, I found the two quite different. RB owns its childishness, which makes it endearing, and honestly - the songs are the most memorable. While WOTR (wow, totally different words but the acronym still fits template) doesn't come off as cute, it tries to make itself more serious and grown-up... well, at least teenager grown-up. Definitely is not going for "endearing".

[Mithadan]

The Rankin-Bass cartoons were pretty bad. I liked the music from The Hobbit, but hated the art. The portrayal of Thranduil was particularly nausea-inducing.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Now, I haven't seen it, nor do I plan to, but the impression I have gleaned from clips and from reviews is that this project is let down, as much as anything, by that plague of contemporary popular entertainment: the Mary Sue. Is that a fair assessment of the Hera-character?

Also, why on earth Hera? There are lots of usable OE female names that alliterate with Helm, Hama and Haleth, so why use a Greek one?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

With some of the flawed animation, I thought it rated in the vicinity of the Bakshi Lord of the Rings.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Hmm...interesting. So it doesn't have any of the campy charm of the Rankin-Bass cartoons, then?.

I never was a fan of Rankin-Bass Hobbit or their Bakshi-finisher Return of the King. That song 'Frodo of the Nine Fingers' comes to mind...

As much as I shook my head in disbelief when I left the theatre when the Bakshi Lord of the Rings movie came out, it had its moments. I got the VHS of it and my younger kids enjoyed it and got into reading Lord of the Rings.

War of the Rohirrim has its moments too. I was even debating going to watch it at the theatre again before it's gone.