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10-10-2003, 04:21 PM | #1 |
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Warg Riders
Dear, freinds of the downs
Suilaid friends of the downs, I must know, where did the Warg Riders come from? Who were the monsters that rode them? Were they Urkhais, goblins, orcs, or were they a different bread of beasts. From Ugluk-120, Master of the Urkhai p.s if anyone can help me learn elvish e-mail me. mailto:trigun@arczip.cpmtrigun@arczip.cpm</A> |
10-10-2003, 04:47 PM | #2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Warg riders are simply Orks that ride Wargs (evil wolves).
Orks are the same as goblins, byt eh way, and Ukruk-hai are Orks bred with humans *shudders*
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10-10-2003, 06:29 PM | #3 |
Tyrannus Incorporalis
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Uruk-hai are not orcs bred with humans. That is a misconception brought about by the movie. In fact, in the books, there is no mention of these 'Warg Riders'. Wargs are simply large wolves, and anyone who rode them would be some sort of orc, Uruk or evil man.
[ October 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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10-10-2003, 07:27 PM | #4 |
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Dear Lord of Angmar,
I am sorry if I was miss under stood, but i was not refering to the books or the movie. What i was reffering to was my tolkien Bestiary, I am sorry, But you did answer my qestion. Than you very much, yu've proved that you know much of tolkien From Ugluk-12 Master of Uruk-Hai |
10-10-2003, 10:37 PM | #5 |
Animated Skeleton
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Isn't it mentioned in The Hobbit that the goblins and the Wargs have an alliance, and that they sometimes ride the wolves? I haven't read that quite as often as LOTR and my books are currently inaccessible, but I'm sure somebody will double-check this.
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10-10-2003, 10:46 PM | #6 | |||
A Northern Soul
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No need to apologize. Also, forum members should leave the moderating to the moderators.
There were indeed Warg riders in Tolkien's work. About Wargs, in The Hobbit: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
[edit] we couldn't expect Saruman to say "Send out your orcs that are riding on the backs of Wargs." Just doesn't flow. Overlooked quote below. [ October 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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10-10-2003, 10:58 PM | #7 |
Hungry Ghoul
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cf. LR III, 9: "He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves."
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10-11-2003, 02:06 AM | #8 | ||
Essence of Darkness
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Quote:
Quote:
'The books' are not grouped with the movies; they are Tolkien, and this forum is about that. But I would appreciate it if you could explain what you are trying to achieve here, and what in fact you are doing. |
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10-11-2003, 03:16 AM | #9 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Ugluk is referring to the Tolkien Bestiary, by David Day. That is an interesting reference book, but it is important to realize that Day's books are not always entirely true to Tolkien's works. For more information and opinions, check out the thread David Day: Literary Burglar?.
I also used the search function to find more entries on David Day, and found this quote by one of the Downs' resident experts, Aiwendil: Quote:
[ October 11, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]
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10-11-2003, 07:52 AM | #10 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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Quote:
Quote:
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10-11-2003, 10:04 AM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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And Tolkien's comments (in HoMe X) that yes, they ARE half-men, half-Orks (which seemed evident anyway)... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I suppsoe men could ride Wargs, but there's never been any examples; only examples of Orks riding them. A Warg may well have consented for an evil man to team up and ride on it, but if any man tried to "tame" a Warg they would've eaten him. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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10-12-2003, 01:07 AM | #12 |
Essence of Darkness
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That'd be it, Squatter.
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10-12-2003, 10:17 AM | #13 |
Haunting Spirit
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I disagree that the idea that the uruk-hai are orcs crossed with men is a creation of the films. In the book there is speculation that Saruman had crossed orcs and men, allowing the uruks to travel under the sun etc. 'That would be a black evil!'
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10-12-2003, 12:34 PM | #14 |
Deathless Sun
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The Uruk-hai were originally bred by Sauron, and by Sauron alone. They were a much larger, stronger breed of Orc out of Mordor, and were most often referred to as "the uruks of Mordor" or the "black uruks of Mordor."
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10-12-2003, 01:37 PM | #15 |
Wight
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I don't have my books with me so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Uruk-Hai were bred by Saruman, not Sauron. The orcs were created by Sauron, but the only place I've seen mention of the Uruk-Hai is in relation to Saruman. And I'm pretty sure there is very strong hinting in the books about the Uruk-Hai being a crossbread of Humans and Orcs because I had thought that before the movies came out.
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10-12-2003, 04:03 PM | #16 |
Spectre of Decay
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We've established that. There are three references above.
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10-12-2003, 07:11 PM | #17 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Saruman's army did feature Wolfriders. In UT, in The Battles of the Fords of Isen, it is said of the army that attacked Theodred's forces:
Quote:
Quote:
I doubt, however, that the wolfriders referred to in UT were Uruks, as the Uruk-Hai in Saruman's army are distinguished from run-of-the-mill Orcs and the wolfriders are simply described as being Orcish.
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10-12-2003, 11:21 PM | #18 |
Hungry Ghoul
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The quote I gave above seems to imply that it was indeed Uruks riding the wolves, since Merry at any rate does not distinguish between them and other orcs.
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10-13-2003, 08:40 PM | #19 |
Animated Skeleton
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Uruk Hai refered to th egreat orcs (out of Mordor or Isengard) who were larger than the other orcs, and the small orcs called snaga (slave) by the great orcs at the time of the war of the ring. The Uruk Hai (high orcs in the black tongue) were larger, stronger, more grotesque and more violent htan the snaga under them. These were raised by both Sauron and Sarumon, however, the orcs exclusive to Sarumon were the uruk-hai out of Isengarde who could endure the light of day and were a stronger, nore volitile breed than the normal orcs. The lesser orcs were mostly from the mountains in their caves and mines, and the other great orcs were from Mordor, however slightly less than the Isengard-Orcs, they were strong and fell. (my main source for this is UT, but my copy is at home while I kick it here in college, so a quote by one of my fellow dead men (Legolas or Gwaihir will have one I'm sure) would greatly clarify the issue)
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10-14-2003, 08:03 AM | #20 |
Hungry Ghoul
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It's not like the issue isn't already clear. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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10-14-2003, 09:52 AM | #21 |
Haunting Spirit
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true. Also, I believe Legolas and Gwaihir are far beyond your *fellow dead* people. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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10-14-2003, 09:54 AM | #22 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well actually, Uruk-ahi were only from Isengard, ebing half-Orks; Uruks of Morodr were 100% Ork, but bigger, meaner, strnger etc than the snaga - but the Uruk-hai of Isengard were better than even them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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10-14-2003, 10:01 AM | #23 |
Dread Horseman
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There is a certain logic in the idea that smaller Orcs rather than Uruks rode the Wargs. Although large, the wolves were, I think, nowhere close to horse-sized as portrayed in the movie. Gandalf's comments in II.4 ("These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness.") suggests that Wargs were at least close to normal wolf size.
If Sam and Frodo could be mistaken for Orcs in Mordor (VI.2), then the size of the average snaga must be rather on the runtish side. These smaller types would seem to make more accurate riders for wolves that were large but not gigantic. |
10-14-2003, 10:53 AM | #24 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well Sam did say he had to look well for a fit for hobbit-sized Ork gear, so we can assume most Orks were bigger than Hobbits; not man sized snaga thoguh; also, Orks slouch. A lot. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
Tolkien says that Wargs were feared by the Rohirrim's horses because they could get under the horses and slash their bellies open - so yes, the wolves couldn't be too large. Werewolves of the old 1st Age, maybe even the Wargs in Caradhras' foothills in FotR may have ben bigger; who knows?
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10-14-2003, 12:36 PM | #25 | ||
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Quote:
But, then again, the quotes that I gave from UT are inconclusive too. My belief that the wolf-riders were not Uruk-Hai derives primarily from two points. First, I agree with Mister U when he says: Quote:
Secondly, the Warg-riders that we meet in the Hobbit are Orcs of the Misty Mountains. We know that these cave-dwellers were small in stature, and we know that they did indeed ride Wargs. So, makes perfect sense to me that the Warg-riders employed by Saruman were Orcs from Moria, or possibly other cave settlements in the Misty Mountains - perhaps closer to Isengard, that he had pressed into his service, rather than being the Snaga of Mordor. On a side note, I envisage Snaga as being smaller even than the Misty Mountain Orcs, so that two Hobbits suitably attired could quite easily be mistaken for them.
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10-15-2003, 07:57 AM | #26 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Hmm...it'd make more sense if the moria ones were snaga, seeing as there are Uruks from Mordor there, why can't the others be snaga? Besides, if snaga were so small the size of hobbits would be no surprise to Ork-fighting everyones.
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10-15-2003, 06:00 PM | #27 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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The only time that we come across "Snaga" in LotR is in reference to the lesser Orcs (generally scouts and trackers) in the companies led by Shagrat and Ugluk (Mordor Orcs and Isengarders respectively).
But, on reflection, the Misty Mountain Goblins were probably thought of by the Uruk-Hai as Snaga (Snagas?). Snaga, meaning "Slave" was, according to Appendix F, a term used by larger breeds of Orc, especially the Uruk-Hai, to refer generally to lesser Goblins.
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