Concerning Maeglin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maéglin · 10-09-2003, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Thus all seemed well withe the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the prines of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their lands.

Who was the greatest of the princes of the Noldor in Gondolin if it was not Maeglin? So whos is the quote referring to, Tuor or perhaps Turgon, but Turgon became king after Fingon died at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad so he wasn't really a prince anymore.

Legolas · 10-10-2003, 01:12 AM

I don't think the "greatest" there is linked to "the princes of the Noldor" - it is referring to Maeglin being the greatest "save one in the most renowned of their lands" - the greatest inhabitant of Gondolin save Tuor (obviously excluding the King), playing up Maeglin's competition with Tuor and his desire to have Idril.

Finwe · 10-10-2003, 05:56 PM

I think it also emphasized how great and mighty Maeglin was before his fall, which made said fall even more grievous. I think it can be comparable to Fëanor's, since both of them were such beautiful people, and both fell (leading to widespread ruin).

Lyta_Underhill · 10-10-2003, 09:34 PM

Gee, Finwe! I just got through mentioning Maeglin and Fëanor in the same breath on another thread! What a coincidence! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Indeed, they seemed to be ripe for a push from Morgoth...more's the pity. I think if one looks at the dead end of Maeglin's position and the power he does have and use, that it is necessary to conclude that he must make some sort of move in order to further himself, or else stay in the position he holds, in which he is clearly not happy. The tragedy is that it was driven by evil, the poison of Morgoth. I would have liked to see Maeglin perhaps break off and form a separate kingdom, for he seemed constitutionally unsuited to be anything less than the one with final say. I wonder if his 'love' for Idril was all love or if it was this sort of covetousness...it is interesting to turn over these thoughts, anyway!

Cheers,
Lyta

[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

StarJewel · 11-03-2003, 10:37 PM

I've sometimes wondered about Maeglin's love for Idril myself. I really think it was more infatuation than anything else. For one thing, she was beautiful, and second, she was the first female elf he had ever seen (aside from his mother). Maybe if he grew up around Idril, or just other Elves, he would not have turned out the way he did. Just a thought.

Silver Dragon · 11-03-2003, 11:49 PM

But apparently he was already going bad before he met Morgoth, as the reason he was caught by Morgoth was because he was outside the boundaries set by the king...and he had managed to gain a following of other elves that had no qualms about overthrowing Gondolin and handing it over to Morgoth...

willkill4food · 11-05-2003, 04:30 PM

I always assumed that reference was referring to Feanor, and I thought it was made clear throughout the Silmarillion that Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar...

1. Feanor
2. Maeglin
3. ?

Third would be way to hard to decide, too many elves that did great deeds...

-willkill

Silver Dragon · 11-05-2003, 05:28 PM

And what, praytell, would have made Maeglin second only to Feanor? I don't believe he did too much in his secluded life...

Arothir · 11-07-2003, 04:50 PM

Silver Dragon, being Turgon's sister-son makes you a pretty special person.

**The Saucepan Man** · 11-07-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

... being Turgon's sister-son makes you a pretty special person.

Special, maybe. But one of the two greatest Eldar?

I believe that Galadriel and Feanor are both referred to as the greatest of the Noldor (although which one tops the chart is a matter of some debate). So, that puts her up there. And then there's Fingolfin. I think he deserves to be pretty near the top. And his brother, Finarfin (Galadriel's father). And Finwe, father of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin. And then there's Thingol. And Olwe. And Fingon, Turgon and Gil-Galad. And a good many others. To me, Maeglin comes pretty far down the list, when we are talking about the greatest of the Eldar.

But going back to the original question, the quote was:

Quote:

Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their lands.

This says that Maeglin was mighty among the princes of the Noldor. Princes must be used pretty loosely here, because Maeglin was no son of a King. And there were others who might be desribed as "princes of the Noldor" in the same sense who I would think of as mightier than him. He was mighty, yes. But not the mightiest, or one of the mightiest.

The second part of the quote does not, I believe, refer back to the "princes of the Noldor", but simply says that he was the greatest save one in Gondolin. And that one, must surely have been Turgon, the ruler of Gondolin. Which puts him above Glorfindel and Tuor, but not above other "Noldor princes" in Beleriand.

Finwe · 11-07-2003, 06:31 PM

(Yesssss.... I'm powerful!!!!)

Anyone with the fatal flaw of arrogance and a feeling of superiority is indeed quite ripe for a fall. Those traits were something that both Maeglin and Fëanor shared, although for different reasons. I also don't fault Maeglin for becoming infatuated with Idril like that. I mean, if I had been brought up in the middle of a dark forest, with a dad as nutters as Eol, I would have been quite repressed. Suddenly, with his and his mother's escape, Maeglin had a ton of freedom that he probably didn't know what to do with. It must have been quite a maturing experience for him to see the rest of his family (or at least some of the rest of his family) that he had always heard about, and also to lay eyes on this radiantly beautiful, glowing, perfect Elf maiden.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 11-11-2003, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their lands.

Let me start with this comment: I love this forum. Full of the curious, die-hard, vaguely interested, intelligent, serious, humourous... You name them, they're here. And that's awsome because with all of the variety, people read things differently. Such as the above quote. I read it vaguely differently than has been mentioned.

Quote:

who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor

For this, I assumed that by 'princes of the Noldor', it was similar to Pippin being a 'prince of hobbits'. Not actually a prince, but one of the favoured. People love him and he gets a lot of attention. So of all the people that the Noldor come to favor, Maeglin was pretty high up there.

Quote:

and greatest save one in the most renowned of their lands

This is where it gets more complicated. Some see it as Maeglin being second best of the Noldorin Princes. I personally see the statement as meaning that of all the people who are given renoun in their lands, Maeglin is given the second largest amount. People/Elves do great or interesting things, they get talked about and remembered. Maeglin did some pretty danged interesting things, he got remembered and talked about. I'd say for the most renouned, that would have to be Feanor, because he was the one who got the Noldor back to M.E. in the first place.

So even though Maeglin isn't the second greatest Elf or anything, people still liked to talk to him. He's well remembered. Nixen wasn't the second greatest president, but he gets talked about a lot.

There's my input...

Fea

Finwe · 11-11-2003, 08:22 PM

Notorious people are remembered a lot more often than their strait-laced counterparts. For example, just about every schoolchild remembers King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, but when you ask them what King Louis XIII did, they look at you blankly.

In the same way, Fëanor and Maeglin, the geniuses, immensely talented craftsmen, and the black sheep of the House of Finwë, are remembered a lot more than, say, Finarfin or Mahtan. Why, do you ask? They simply did a lot more, and were "bad boys." No one really remembers Finarfin and Mahtan, except for their association with Fëanor, THE bad boy. That was why Maeglin was so famous, or rather, infamous.

the phantom · 11-11-2003, 10:18 PM

Legolas said-

Quote:

I don't think the "greatest" there is linked to "the princes of the Noldor" - it is referring to Maeglin being the greatest "save one in the most renowned of their lands"

SPMan said-

Quote:

The second part of the quote does not, I believe, refer back to the "princes of the Noldor", but simply says that he was the greatest save one in Gondolin.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Legolas and SPMan win a prize!

The book says-

Quote:

..and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms.

"Greatest" is part of the same thought as "in the most renowned of their realms"!

They go together!

It doesn't say "..he was the greatest save one, and by the way he lived in the most renowned of their realms."

There is no break in the thought. No comma, period, or hyphen. He was the second greatest in the most renowned of their realms, in other words the second greatest Noldorin prince in Gondolin.

In Gondolin!

There, I'm done ranting now.

**lindil** · 11-12-2003, 07:04 PM

Phantom, you are quite correct in underscoring Maeglin's 'greatness' was specifically tied to Gondolin. How could it be great outside of it? THe only he thing he ever did outside of Gondolin [before betraying it] was travel there with his mother and go to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad [with 10,ooo other Gondolindrim]. His 'fame' was a purely local one.

As for him being a prince of the Noldor this is due to being a grandson of Finwe. Prince is often used loosely to describe heirs and even royal cousins. THe son of a Duke forinstance is often styled a prince [at least in some quarters].

Once Tuor married Idril he to may have been reffered to as Prince, though we see no direct evidence of it. Indirectly the fact that Their son Earendil is given the rule of the refugees at the moth of the Sirion is however, indicitave of it.

Re: Maeglin's fall

Imo he inherited his father Eol's [the quintesssential 'dark' elf] inability to nobly court a woman. With Eol he grabs the first bright ray of femininity that strays into his woods [it would seem]. Even a moments reflection on his part would have yeilded the obvious fact that she was a Noldorin Princess and he HATED the Noldor.

We also see an inverse of Melian and Thingol's [Eol's kinsman it is said] meeting [also in Nan Elmoth]. MElian brought with her grace and did much to uplift the Sindar.

Aredhel however through pride and the subtle but pervasive effects of The Curse, helps bring ruin to Gondolin.

With Maeglin, he is captivated by the first woman he ses, the fact that it is his first cousin never gets sorted out by him. Doubtles Idril would have sought to comfort her recently and tragically orphaned/marooned'foster brother' and this feminine warmth and compassion, certainly the only he had known other than his mother, would have cemented his love for her. Indeed it probably was a sort of love at first, that began souring quickly when he did not properly channel it to the sort of affection and agape healthy for those destined never to wed.

In the Laws and Customs of the Eldar [HoM-E X] we read that for one of the eldar not to have a strong control over sexual/ marital impulses was essentially unheard of, and that Maeglin was thus a serious social deviant, by Eldarin standards.

[ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Finwe · 11-12-2003, 07:57 PM

The word "Prince" is also generally used to describe males of royal blood, not necessarily members of the nuclear Ruling Family. All those of Turgon's House in Gondolin could have been referred to as Princes, due to their relationship and close association with him. If you look at it that way, then there are probably plenty of people to compare Maeglin to. Since the Elves set much store by craftsmanship and skills like that, a craftsman like Maeglin would be accorded much honor, and would be considered great. Perhaps he could have been second to Turgon, since he was the closest relative of Turgon there (except Idril).

10-10-2003, 01:12 AM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I don't think the "greatest" there is linked to "the princes of the Noldor" - it is referring to Maeglin being the greatest "save one in the most renowned of their lands" - the greatest inhabitant of Gondolin save Tuor (obviously excluding the King), playing up Maeglin's competition with Tuor and his desire to have Idril. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-10-2003, 05:56 PM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think it also emphasized how great and mighty Maeglin was before his fall, which made said fall even more grievous. I think it can be comparable to Fëanor's, since both of them were such beautiful people, and both fell (leading to widespread ruin). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-10-2003, 09:34 PM	#4
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	Gee, Finwe! I just got through mentioning Maeglin and Fëanor in the same breath on another thread! What a coincidence! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Indeed, they seemed to be ripe for a push from Morgoth...more's the pity. I think if one looks at the dead end of Maeglin's position and the power he does have and use, that it is necessary to conclude that he must make some sort of move in order to further himself, or else stay in the position he holds, in which he is clearly not happy. The tragedy is that it was driven by evil, the poison of Morgoth. I would have liked to see Maeglin perhaps break off and form a separate kingdom, for he seemed constitutionally unsuited to be anything less than the one with final say. I wonder if his 'love' for Idril was all love or if it was this sort of covetousness...it is interesting to turn over these thoughts, anyway! Cheers, Lyta [ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ] __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

11-03-2003, 10:37 PM	#5
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	I've sometimes wondered about Maeglin's love for Idril myself. I really think it was more infatuation than anything else. For one thing, she was beautiful, and second, she was the first female elf he had ever seen (aside from his mother). Maybe if he grew up around Idril, or just other Elves, he would not have turned out the way he did. Just a thought. __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

11-03-2003, 11:49 PM	#6
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	But apparently he was already going bad before he met Morgoth, as the reason he was caught by Morgoth was because he was outside the boundaries set by the king...and he had managed to gain a following of other elves that had no qualms about overthrowing Gondolin and handing it over to Morgoth... __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

11-05-2003, 04:30 PM	#7
willkill4food Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 44	I always assumed that reference was referring to Feanor, and I thought it was made clear throughout the Silmarillion that Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar... 1. Feanor 2. Maeglin 3. ? Third would be way to hard to decide, too many elves that did great deeds... -willkill __________________ Gil-galad was an Elven-king. Of him the harpers sadly sing...

11-05-2003, 05:28 PM	#8
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	And what, praytell, would have made Maeglin second only to Feanor? I don't believe he did too much in his secluded life... __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

11-07-2003, 04:50 PM	#9
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	Silver Dragon, being Turgon's sister-son makes you a pretty special person. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

11-07-2003, 06:31 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	(Yesssss.... I'm powerful!!!!) Anyone with the fatal flaw of arrogance and a feeling of superiority is indeed quite ripe for a fall. Those traits were something that both Maeglin and Fëanor shared, although for different reasons. I also don't fault Maeglin for becoming infatuated with Idril like that. I mean, if I had been brought up in the middle of a dark forest, with a dad as nutters as Eol, I would have been quite repressed. Suddenly, with his and his mother's escape, Maeglin had a ton of freedom that he probably didn't know what to do with. It must have been quite a maturing experience for him to see the rest of his family (or at least some of the rest of his family) that he had always heard about, and also to lay eyes on this radiantly beautiful, glowing, perfect Elf maiden. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-11-2003, 08:22 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Notorious people are remembered a lot more often than their strait-laced counterparts. For example, just about every schoolchild remembers King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, but when you ask them what King Louis XIII did, they look at you blankly. In the same way, Fëanor and Maeglin, the geniuses, immensely talented craftsmen, and the black sheep of the House of Finwë, are remembered a lot more than, say, Finarfin or Mahtan. Why, do you ask? They simply did a lot more, and were "bad boys." No one really remembers Finarfin and Mahtan, except for their association with Fëanor, THE bad boy. That was why Maeglin was so famous, or rather, infamous. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-12-2003, 07:04 PM	#15
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Phantom, you are quite correct in underscoring Maeglin's 'greatness' was specifically tied to Gondolin. How could it be great outside of it? THe only he thing he ever did outside of Gondolin [before betraying it] was travel there with his mother and go to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad [with 10,ooo other Gondolindrim]. His 'fame' was a purely local one. As for him being a prince of the Noldor this is due to being a grandson of Finwe. Prince is often used loosely to describe heirs and even royal cousins. THe son of a Duke forinstance is often styled a prince [at least in some quarters]. Once Tuor married Idril he to may have been reffered to as Prince, though we see no direct evidence of it. Indirectly the fact that Their son Earendil is given the rule of the refugees at the moth of the Sirion is however, indicitave of it. Re: Maeglin's fall Imo he inherited his father Eol's [the quintesssential 'dark' elf] inability to nobly court a woman. With Eol he grabs the first bright ray of femininity that strays into his woods [it would seem]. Even a moments reflection on his part would have yeilded the obvious fact that she was a Noldorin Princess and he HATED the Noldor. We also see an inverse of Melian and Thingol's [Eol's kinsman it is said] meeting [also in Nan Elmoth]. MElian brought with her grace and did much to uplift the Sindar. Aredhel however through pride and the subtle but pervasive effects of The Curse, helps bring ruin to Gondolin. With Maeglin, he is captivated by the first woman he ses, the fact that it is his first cousin never gets sorted out by him. Doubtles Idril would have sought to comfort her recently and tragically orphaned/marooned'foster brother' and this feminine warmth and compassion, certainly the only he had known other than his mother, would have cemented his love for her. Indeed it probably was a sort of love at first, that began souring quickly when he did not properly channel it to the sort of affection and agape healthy for those destined never to wed. In the Laws and Customs of the Eldar [HoM-E X] we read that for one of the eldar not to have a strong control over sexual/ marital impulses was essentially unheard of, and that Maeglin was thus a serious social deviant, by Eldarin standards. [ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-12-2003, 07:57 PM	#16
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The word "Prince" is also generally used to describe males of royal blood, not necessarily members of the nuclear Ruling Family. All those of Turgon's House in Gondolin could have been referred to as Princes, due to their relationship and close association with him. If you look at it that way, then there are probably plenty of people to compare Maeglin to. Since the Elves set much store by craftsmanship and skills like that, a craftsman like Maeglin would be accorded much honor, and would be considered great. Perhaps he could have been second to Turgon, since he was the closest relative of Turgon there (except Idril). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.