The Army of the Dead- Movie vs Books - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

R.R.J Tolkien · 04-29-2018, 06:58 AM

So i read a great essay on the army of the dead found here.

Answerer: can the Dead Men (Army of the Dead) kill people?
https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jkeener...n/deadmen.html

"There has been considerable pushback from book fans to the depiction of the Dead Men as an essentially invincible force. To be clear, there is nothing in the books to suggest that the Dead had the ability to slaughter tens of thousands of soldiers in a matter of minutes. "

So what are everyone thoughts, did the movies portray the army of the dead in a lore accurate manner [besides them fighting at the battle of the pelennor fields] or did they overpower them for movie effects.

Inziladun · 04-29-2018, 07:07 AM

I only saw the PJ movies once, so my memory of the scene is (thankfully) hazy.

The book, however, seems to indicate the Dead, like the Nazgûl, relied primarily on the dread that accompanied them to achieve victory.

Gimli described the scenario:

Quote:

'Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead no longer needed any weapon but fear. None would withstand them.'

ROTK The Last Debate

Since they were dead, unlike the Ringwraiths, they should not have still had physical bodies. That would preclude any ability to actually fight.

Galadriel55 · 04-29-2018, 07:50 AM

A sea of green slime that overwhelms enemies by swarming over them like an army of ants and... what exactly? How is it that movie-army of the dead kills their victims? Seriously, they reminded me of some termite or piranha attack, where they cover a victim completely and in two seconds there's nothing left. My memory of the movie isn't best either, so if the movie actually shows how the dead kill people please correct me.

As for the book-army of the dead, I agree with Zil. The dead inspire fear. They did not directly kill anyone - the corsairs just fled from terror, and the Gondorian slaves would have fled too if not for their chains. Certainly everyone on land would have fled if it wasn't for Aragorn. It's a fear that doesn't discriminate.

Now the Nazgul also work by fear, but that fear does discriminate. Their foes drop their weapons, fall down helplessly, lose their purpose, but their armies rush forward madly because even sure death is better than facing the Nazgul's wrath. It is curious - a hypothetical scenario - what would happen to the fear balance if the book dead did come to Pelannor Fields. Probably nothing good to the men fighting outside the walls of the city, but what about Sauron's army?

Zigûr · 04-29-2018, 08:04 AM

On the point that essay makes about who broke Baldor's legs, I must say that I never thought the Dead did it, but rather, as the essay itself considers, individuals from the still-living remnant of their society (which had completely died out by the end of the Third Age several centuries later). It never even crossed my mind that the Dead were responsible.

The film isn't exactly clear on how the Dead hurt anyone anyway. They seem to just sort of wash about like the tide and things fall over. Then again I could be misremembering. I haven't watched Jackson's Return of the King in about ten years.

Morthoron · 04-29-2018, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The film isn't exactly clear on how the Dead hurt anyone anyway. They seem to just sort of wash about like the tide and things fall over. Then again I could be misremembering. I haven't watched Jackson's Return of the King in about ten years.

The army of green Scrubbing Bubbles(TM) was loaded with Perchloroethylene, Triclosan, Quarternary Ammonium Compounds, 2-Butoxyethanol, Ammonia, Sodium Hydroxide and Chlorine.

The green Scrubbing Bubbles(TM) poisoned everything in its wake, but left the White City sparkling clean, 99% bacteria-free, and with the scent of a mountain meadow bouquet in Spring.

Rhun charioteer · 05-02-2018, 12:02 PM

I know a lot of book fans weren't fans of it. But it was the only way to have Aragorn and Co. arriving to save the day without introducing either Elrond's sons or a lot of Gondorian nobles and their retinues and having the audience go "who are these people?"

So it was a creative choice I understand.

04-29-2018, 06:58 AM	#1
R.R.J Tolkien Wight Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 156	The Army of the Dead- Movie vs Books So i read a great essay on the army of the dead found here. Answerer: can the Dead Men (Army of the Dead) kill people? https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jkeener...n/deadmen.html "There has been considerable pushback from book fans to the depiction of the Dead Men as an essentially invincible force. To be clear, there is nothing in the books to suggest that the Dead had the ability to slaughter tens of thousands of soldiers in a matter of minutes. " So what are everyone thoughts, did the movies portray the army of the dead in a lore accurate manner [besides them fighting at the battle of the pelennor fields] or did they overpower them for movie effects. __________________ “I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien

04-29-2018, 07:50 AM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,406	A sea of green slime that overwhelms enemies by swarming over them like an army of ants and... what exactly? How is it that movie-army of the dead kills their victims? Seriously, they reminded me of some termite or piranha attack, where they cover a victim completely and in two seconds there's nothing left. My memory of the movie isn't best either, so if the movie actually shows how the dead kill people please correct me. As for the book-army of the dead, I agree with Zil. The dead inspire fear. They did not directly kill anyone - the corsairs just fled from terror, and the Gondorian slaves would have fled too if not for their chains. Certainly everyone on land would have fled if it wasn't for Aragorn. It's a fear that doesn't discriminate. Now the Nazgul also work by fear, but that fear does discriminate. Their foes drop their weapons, fall down helplessly, lose their purpose, but their armies rush forward madly because even sure death is better than facing the Nazgul's wrath. It is curious - a hypothetical scenario - what would happen to the fear balance if the book dead did come to Pelannor Fields. Probably nothing good to the men fighting outside the walls of the city, but what about Sauron's army? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

04-29-2018, 08:04 AM	#4
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	On the point that essay makes about who broke Baldor's legs, I must say that I never thought the Dead did it, but rather, as the essay itself considers, individuals from the still-living remnant of their society (which had completely died out by the end of the Third Age several centuries later). It never even crossed my mind that the Dead were responsible. The film isn't exactly clear on how the Dead hurt anyone anyway. They seem to just sort of wash about like the tide and things fall over. Then again I could be misremembering. I haven't watched Jackson's Return of the King in about ten years. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.

05-02-2018, 12:02 PM	#6
Rhun charioteer Wight Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 118	I know a lot of book fans weren't fans of it. But it was the only way to have Aragorn and Co. arriving to save the day without introducing either Elrond's sons or a lot of Gondorian nobles and their retinues and having the audience go "who are these people?" So it was a creative choice I understand.