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09-29-2017, 06:53 PM | #1 | ||||||||||
King's Writer
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Galadriel and Celeborn
As I mentioned in personal discussion with ArcuCalion, I think that before I prepare my first draft of the chapter ‘Of the Flight of the Noldor’ for posting here, we need to discuss Galadriel’s story during this time. Since when ever we go on to the Second Age material, we would need to discuss as one of the most important issues as well the actions of the couple Galadriel and Celeborn, I will collect in these post the relevant sources and start the discussion. But I will not drive it to the end. The Second Age stuff is even more complex then the First Age stuff. Therefore it will be enough now to bring out the truth about Galadriel behavior during the process of Exiling the Noldor.
This research was started as response to the critic my post in this thread in 'The Books' Forum: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But since this analyses is based heavely on the priority rules of this project which are quiet diffrent from that of 'The Books'-Forum I found it not appropirate to post it in that thread as an answer. Nonetheless that thread is worth reading, at least to get some additional opinions. Let’s first have look at the source. I try to order them from higher to lower priority. I will number the source text A) to X) (hopefully not really to X) for easier reference. The fist to look at is RGEO, since it is the last source published by JRR Tolkien himself in which we find information about the pair. The Next is then clearly the Appendices to LotR since they were changed in the second edition of the book and last of the first priority sources is then the text of the LotR itself. I will not go into the large field of draft texts or even older additions for LotR and its Appendices. They might be very interesting for the development of the history of the pair, but that is not the goal here. I will give first only the sources and follow then with my interpretation. A) RGEO; Notes and Translations, Namárië; published 1968, written by Tolkien supposedly about that time: Quote:
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D) Unfinished Tales; Part 2: The Second Age; Chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, very late and partly illegible note; written 1973: This is the story of Galadriel taking ship alone with Celeborn in a ship they had build and saved from the Feanorians. E) Unfinished Tales; Part 2: The Second Age; Chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Amroth and Nimrodel; written 1969 or later: Quote:
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Now to my interpretation of these sources: About A): At first glance there seems not much space for interpretation here. Galadriel is one of the Noldor and Celeborn of the Sindar and both are already married when they cross the Ered Luin together. That this crossing of the Ered Luin might not occur immediately after Galadriels reply to the ban on her return to Valinor is clear from the statement that they went to Eregion, which was founded later. But then it might as well be that they did not go directly to Eregion after the crossing of the mountains, or both. Together with A) text B) gives a bit more to think about. They still fit together nicely, as is to be expected with texts that were written only a short time apart. Here it is made clear that Celeborn at least stayed for a considerable time in south Lindon and since we know from A) that the pair crossed the Ered Luin together the natural interpretation is that Galadriel was with him during his time as Lord of South-Lindon. But then it is only the natural first guess, that the ‘for a time’ means the time immediately at the beginning of the Second Age. At a second glance it could as well mean any later time period. We also get some more family background for both: Celeborn is akin to Thingol and Galadriel the sister of Finrod Felagund. In text C) we come to the first real issue. The famous sentence will give us a hard time to reconcile with A) and B): He [Celeborn] has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I [Galadriel] have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I [Galadriel] passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat. The first part is not that difficult: The ‘days of dawn’ should refer to the first rising of the sun at the beginning of the First Age. ‘In the West’ might refer to any think west of the River Anduin or even west of the River Celduin. It does include Doriath, Lindon, Nenuial, Eregion, Imladirs, Lorien and Dol Amroth (all places that have been recorded in one or another source to have been a dwelling place of Celeborn). The second half sentence is more interesting for what it does not directly say, Galadriel does here witness that she had not dwelt all that time since ‘the day of dawn’ together with her husband. Okay, that seems obvious, since she is an Exil and entered ME in the days of dawn while Celeborn a Sinda was already there, and we do not expect the pair to join up at once when Galadriel landed on the shore. But the interesting thing is that Galadriel gives another explanation: ‘for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains’. The most natural interpretation would be that Galadriel crossed the mountains (Ered Luin or Hithaeglir) to join Celeborn on the other side (and we know that at first, when the sentence was written, that was exactly what was meant, since at that time Celeborn was a Silvain Elf of Lorien). But that natural interpretation would be a contradiction to A) where it is attested that (probably a considerable long time) ‘After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age’ both together crosses the Ered Luin. Since Galadriel made a difference between ‘the days of dawn’ and ‘ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin’ it is clear that the crossing of the mountains can not mean the Pelori, since these Galadriel crossed before ‘the days of dawn’. One could take the Ered Wethrin or the Ered Grogoroth as these crossed mountains, but that I also find very much forced, since we have to expect Galadriel at the Merteh Aderthad 20 FA or at least in 52 FA when she is recorded to visit Doriath with her brother and stayed there. To nominate such an early time by ‘ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin’ seems strange, since both cities were at that time not yet founded. In addition that would as well state just the obvious fact that Celeborn did not wait for Galadriel on the shore. Here a look into one of the drafts text K) might be useful; even so I dismissed them earlier. But I will show that the idea that I want to point out was long living since it will reoccur in a very late text. We have in text K) for the first time the idea of an early passage of Galadriel over the Ered Lindon. And that idea seems to have been stable, so nearly everything around that changed. We find it again in the very late text D). At least the idea of an early journey of Galadriel and Celeborn to Eraidor was a returning one, but probably it was long-lasting. Together with text C) in which there is made a clear distinction between ‘he’[Celeborn], ‘I’[Galadriel] and ‘we’[Galadriel and Celeborn] and text A) that attested that both crossed the Ered Luin together at some time in the Second Age, I would assume that Galadriel alone left Beleriand in the Frist Age ‘ere the Fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin’. To pinpoint the time of that departure a bit more: The last mention of Galadriel in GA is in the 420 FA where it is reported that Melian foretold to Galadriel that Beren would not be kept out of Doriath by the girdle of Melian. The Fall of Nargothrond occurred in 495 FA. In between there occurred many events to show how right Galadriels motives as reported in text D) were: The orc raid over the Ered Luin that pushed the Folk of Haleth out of Dor-Caranthir in 421 FA, the Dagor Bragolach in 455 FA, the coming of the Swarthy Men in 463 FA or the Ninaeth Arnoediad in 472 FA. That Galadriel returned at the end of the First Age is obvious, since attested by text A) she received a sentence from the Valar with a ban on her return and answered to that sentence. We have to assume that such communication was done during the sojourn of Eönwë in ME after the War of Wrath. But let us consider first the ban a bit longer: In text G) it said ‘The Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained.’ Who could be these other ‘few chief actors in the rebellion’ that were still around after the War of Wrath? Of the first generation Finweans only Finarfin was left and he was already pardoned more then 600 years before. Of the second generation beside Galadriel only Maedros and Maglor were left and they were summoned by Eönwë to come to Aman and wait there the judgment of the Valar. Nobody else is specially mentioned in the story of the rebellion. So we have to assume that these others were group leaders that probably acted very badly during the fight at Aqualondë. And that might be as well the reason for the ban on Galadriels return. So her motive for the fight was just, since she fought in defense of the Teleri and their ships, the means that she toke maybe not. Is it probable that her heroic and fierce defense was the reason for the escalation up to the point where blood was shed for the protection / usurpation of property? That would very much fit the description of the Second Clan as the most quarrelsome of the Elves. And that would as well warrant a ban on her return as long as she did not repent, which seemed not to be the case looking at here proud answer. Beside that it would not matter at all if she afterwards took the route over the ice or sailed solitary with a ship that she rescued from the host of the Feanorians. But that is only an aside consideration. The singlehanded ship journey from text D) is out of the picture since text A) names her ‘the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth.’ Up to this point the result is needed for the First Age stuff. Therefore for the time being I will stop here. But the thread should be used for the discussion of the farther story of pair. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-30-2017 at 05:08 AM. |
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09-29-2017, 11:18 PM | #2 |
Quentingolmo
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This is an incredibly detailed and comprehensive list of movements. Since I saw that you had listed "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" on the outline as "first draft," I can assume you have worked out a timeline which you believe to be correct. What would that be, in bullet point form? As far as I can tell, it seems to be:
- Galadriel is born in Tirion - Feanor covets her hair / strife between them - Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol - Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel goes with feanor - Kinslaying: Galadriel fights feanor in defense of the Swanhaven - leads the Noldor across the ice - Mereth Aderthad - She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian - Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries - visits Nargothrond - journeys over the mountains with Celeborn - returns to Doriath / the Havens of Sirion / Ossiriand - refuses the pardon of the Valar - dwells in Lindon and from there it gets more murky, but this seems to me to be the generally consistent plot of events for the first age. Am I misreading it? |
09-30-2017, 05:02 AM | #3 |
King's Writer
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After I had posted this I observed that my conclusion was maybe a bit thin, because such a list as you created was missing. And I found that I should have given the impulse for the research, with the reference to the therad in the book forum which I will edit into the original posting.
But whatsoever my list is abit different from your even to the time of the end of the First Age, where as you observed the really murky stuff starts. The reason for the differences seems to be that I consider the sources not as entities that are either valid or not but as 'adding info to the overall picture' even if parts of it are contradiced by sources of higher priority. Therefore I think that at least parts of D should be used. With that I get: - Galadriel is born in Tirion - Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol - Feanor covets Galadriels hair / unfreindlines between them - Galadriel plans to go to Middlee-earth, dwells for a time in Aqualondë and builds a ship of her own. She was prepairing the question to Manwë for leave, when the rebellion of the Noldor started. - Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel is the only women among the debating princes - Kinslaying: Galadriel fights Feanor in defense of the Swanhaven - leads the Noldor across the ice - Mereth Aderthad - She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian - Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries - visits Nargothrond - journeys over the mountains without Celeborn - Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath - Galadriel follows the sumons of Eönwë and returns to Beleriand (most proable place of abbiding are the Havens of Sirion where we would suppose Celeborn could be meet again. - accepts proudly the ban set on her return by the Valar partily because Celeborn is not willing to leave Middle-earth - crosses Ered Lindon with Celeborn and they becomes Lord and Lady of all the Elves of Eriador. I think that the Lordship of Celeborn in Lindon South of Lûhn was later in Second Age after the Fall of Eregion. Respectfully Findegil |
09-30-2017, 08:06 AM | #4 | |
Quentingolmo
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I would greatly disagree with the addition of the boatbuilding, as this is entirely stemming from a rejected and impossible story idea. The rest looks good, but I noticed a contradiction. In Of the Naugrim and the Edain it is said:
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09-30-2017, 04:24 PM | #5 |
King's Writer
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The boat building is impossible because? Would disagree means you disagree, I supose. I support it, so we have to discuss it out. That Galadriel wished to explore her own abilities in Middle-earth and lusted to build their a power of her own is atested in other sources. The logical means to come to Middle-earth would be the ships of the Teleri. Galadriel was the granddaughter of Olwë. Why then shouldn't she not go to Aqualondë and try her tallents on boat building, even without Celeborn being there to be meet.
For me the quote you provided refers to the poeple of Caranthir not to all the Noldor. Therefore I am inclined to think there is no issue. But I am ambivalent about this. If you find we have to change it, we can change it. Respectfully Findegil |
10-01-2017, 06:36 PM | #6 |
Quentingolmo
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I suppose there is no reason she would not have built a boat. Thus, i will concede it.
You are right, the passage does seem to refer solely to the people of Caranthir. What more remains to be decided before a draft of the Flight of the Noldor is possible? |
10-02-2017, 02:15 AM | #7 |
King's Writer
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I am actually working on the draft. It will still take a bit of time, since I have to formulat my comments on the changes I introduced (years ago). But I can give a release info: The boat is out of the plot. Working in the text I found that the boat was probabaly not built by Galadriel or with Galadriels help, because it is name 'Celeborn's boat'. Therefore I agree to remove it togehter with Celeborn.
Respectfully Findegil |
10-02-2017, 06:48 AM | #8 |
Quentingolmo
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Awesome! When you're done with the draft and we review it, i will do one for the Siege of Angband chapter. Then all of the first age will be a wip!
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10-02-2017, 09:48 AM | #9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The mountains as noted in The Lord of the Rings are never named there of course, and are already arguably confusing: the Company had just crossed, albeit "under", a very notable mountain range (quite notable to the Lindar on the Great Journey too) to "get to" Galadriel... ... but she doesn't mean these mountains? Okay she might have gone round, or be generally referring to both Ered Lindon and the Misty Mountains, but if it's arguably vague, why not the Ered Wethrin in Beleriand? And it appears that this "ghost" statement might have begun in reference to the Mountains of Valinor (Christopher Tolkien's commentary), granted with different wording, but why not mentally change the range yet again to fit the later idea of Celeborn the Sinda of Doriath? Two objections I've thought about (and have run into on line): 1) What's so notable about Galadriel's crossing of the Ered Wethrin (to get mention here)? 2) Ere the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin... when (if we imagine the Ered Wethrin), it's also ere the founding! My answers are (in reverse order) The falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin didn't happen on the same date. Galadriel's reference is arguably a general one to evoke "long long ago" especially to the ears and mind of the four Hobbits. If I said (something like) "these people came to England before the Fall of Rome" I could simply be generalizing by using a well known event of the deep past. It merely suggests "they arrived a long time ago" for the minds of folks who are not history buffs and don't care when Rome was founded. They get the idea. As for the notability objection: Galadriel need not have passed over the Mountains of Aman, and it seems to me that there was a pass into the Echoing Mountains as well -- the Noldor took it, and a massing of orcs appear to travel fairly far to take it -- but it's not very convenient considering where Galadriel ended up, if one is then going to the feast and on to Doriath. In other words, crossing Ered Wethrin could have been Galadriel's first experience with crossing high mountains. I know it's not what Tolkien meant But I really only "know" this to some measure of certainty due to posthumously published texts and commentary. In any case none of this need be explained in your version of Quenta Silmarillion. It's just a possible mental way (if one feels it "works" well enough) to keep Galadriel in Beleriand with her husband, and not have to return from Eriador to find out... ... she's been banned! Obviously it's up to you folks. I'm not sure my blather about this appears in the linked thread, if maybe in other threads at Barrow Downs. In any case I had some free time to annoy this thread with it too! Also, in my experience I've run into the question, despite what is said in RGEO: why does Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings say she passes the test and will go West, as if she already knows her ban has been lifted before she sings her lament? Some take this to challenge the "truth" of the ban, and one person I chatted with even went so far as to say RGEO represents external author commentary and invoked the "death of author" principle to essentially "erase" the ban as Tolkien's own personal interpretation of his world. For the record I found no evidence that RGEO is written as external commentary (Tolkien as author), rather than the internal guise of the translator used elsewhere, and I take the directness of RGEO to be true, over Galadriel's possible implication in the story in Fellowship of the Ring. Here I'm just noting, some disagree. For myself, so far, I just mentally imagine Galadriel to be leaving out "if allowed"... in other words, she passed the test and she'll return West (if allowed), but she doesn't want to confuse folks about her ban at this point. Or something |
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10-02-2017, 11:47 AM | #10 |
Quentingolmo
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In many ways, I would actually agree with Galin. The mountains to which she refers are extremely vague, but to me the more I look at the phrase, the more it feels like the essence of the meaning is that she crossed into the Outer World; i.e. Left Aman. As she did not really "cross the Pelori" this seems odd, until one remembers that the primary act of the Hiding of Valinor was the raising of the Pelori to great heights, and tolkien calls this their last act of truly demiurgic labor. Thus the Pelori are the divide between the Blessed Realm and the Outer World, and Galadriel seems to be using them as a way to say that she came to Beleriand. Now, she does not specify the mountains, and so the reader may interpret them as the Pelori, the Ered Wethrin, or even the Ered Lomin, but the fact remains that all of these could indeed qualify for the mountains in the passage.
As for the "before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin" I agree with Galin. This phrase simply is used to denote "long long ago," as it is used also in Gimli's Durin song to denote the same. He is describing the awakening of Durin and says before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin, even though they would not be founded for ages of the world. Thus, Findegil's objection to the Ered Wethrin does not really hold. Regardless, we have progressed enough in our agreement that the needed drafts may be done, but going forward this will become immensely important. |
10-03-2017, 04:02 AM | #11 |
King's Writer
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Hello Galin, nice to read you again here in this quiet corner of teh Downs!
If we go back to the time when JRR Tolkien wrote that sentence in source C, then it is quiet clearly a reference either to Ered Luin or to the Hitheaglir. At that time Celeborn was a Lord of the Silvian Elves in Lorien and Galadriel does recount her coming into his land. And I totaly agree with Galin that the Hitheaglir is most probably meant since these mountains the fellowship has expierenced just a view days before. But now Celeborn had become a Sindar and did had dwelt all that time since 'the days of dawn' in Lorien. Therefore we have reinterpret the statement. First the time statement: I don't by your argument that this is just unspecific statement of long ago. It would be extremly strange to refer to Celeborn dwelling in the west by 'since the day of dawn' and then to her own movement by 'ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin' if it would make no difference. And if she meant the Pelorí it would make no difference since she 'crossed' these mountians (if crossing we can named it at all) before the days of dawn. So the meaning must be that Celeborn was in the Westlands before the days of dawn, but Galadriel crossed the mountians (which ever) between 'the dayd of dawn' and 'the Fall of Nargothrond (and Gondolin)'. One can interpret these mountains to be the Ered Lómin or the Ered Wethrin, but for me that doesn't makes sense at all. And for this project we should not force any such interpretation on our reader. Galin, you made a very ggod point, that in source C the Company of the Ring had just crossed the very prominent Hitheaglir and that for that reason the reference would very naturally be to that mountain range. And why not? If we let Galadriel explore the east as we hear in source D that she would have liked to withdraw with all the force of Beleriand into that region why than not even cross the Hithaeglir and not only the Ered Luin? In the end the important question for this project is how much of what we discuss here must be put into our text? If we can mange it in the text, we might even leafe this riddle about the mountain range unsolved. Respectfully Findegil |
10-03-2017, 07:24 AM | #12 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Hi Findegil. Yes I couldn't resist. I've spent hours and hours on this tangle of history.
I don't mean that Galadriel's statement is wholly unspecific. It's quite general yet gives at least a "time line in the sand" so to speak. If I say "before the Fall of Rome" folks will probably think "thousands of years ago" but they will also, I would guess, differentiate even this from the "dawn of history" for example. Quote:
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But ach, text D. I wouldn't employ this late variation as it's notably at odds with Galadriel's author published history (and Tolkien's memory seems certainly questionable here). I understand however that you take a different view and draw what you can into a fuller tale. No problem of course. This means I'm sure not to agree with your Second Age history here, as I think Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn in Unfinished Tales is a problematic text. I'll try to resist then... I'll try For instance I believe that the making of Celebrimbor into a Feanorean and Lord of Eregion, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (and certain statements from Words, Phrases, And Passages), knocks out the notion of Galadriel and Celeborn supposedly founding Eregion and so on (other problems I have with this text)... ... but see... I'm already going there Quote:
In any case I appreciate the feedback on my "mountain idea" in an attempt to deal with this line in Fellowship of the Ring, even if I still haven't convinced you... or anyone. Last edited by Galin; 10-03-2017 at 12:22 PM. |
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10-06-2017, 12:15 PM | #13 |
Quentingolmo
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Looking throughout the Silmarillion (1977), there are two places where CT added in editorial additions to clarify the role of Celeborn in the story. As it is, our current drafts of the First Age have no mention of him at all, and, as CT thought, this seems to me to be a mistake. Should we take up the two mentions of Celeborn into the Silmarillion? (One is in the Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin chapter, while the other is in the Of the Ruin of Doriath Chapter.) The first merely describes the love of Galadriel and Celeborn, and the second clarifies that Nimloth wife of Dior is his kinswoman. I would argue we could even expand these with information from the UT geneology or account, but this must be examined.
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10-08-2017, 12:07 AM | #14 | |
Quentingolmo
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This quote from LQ in Of Beleriand and its Realms makes it seem more unlikely that Galadriel crossed the mountains...
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10-08-2017, 05:39 PM | #15 |
King's Writer
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Galadriel sentence in LotR is for sure of higher priorty. I would even go so far as to change this sentence from LQ to do not force any interpretation of the LotR sentence if we would have taken it up in to our text.
Respectfully Findegil |
10-09-2017, 12:46 PM | #16 | |
Quentingolmo
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How about:
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04-25-2018, 11:10 AM | #17 | |
King's Writer
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About the proposed additions to the first age texts:
- The Noldor east of Ered Lindon: For this we settled on a different edited version in the thread about ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’ - Celeborn in ‘Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin’: Yes I think we should include this, so we might better use the original source texts for the edit: Quote:
- Celeborn escaping the sack of Doriath: I think this we should tell in retrospective, as we do with the story of Galadriel leaving Beleriand before the end of the First Age. Respectfully Findegil |
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04-25-2018, 11:10 AM | #18 |
King's Writer
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Hello everybody, it is again a very long time since the last posts in this part of the Forum. As ArcusCalion utter in private communication the wish to go on with the project, I can’t resist that urge any longer and so I think it its best to start up again with the discussion of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, since they are key-figures in the history of the early Second Age in Middle-Earth.
I still work from the collection of source texts given in the first post of this thread and still use the reference number A) to K) established in that post. It might be necessary to add farther sources. (I have seen Galins comment about ‘certain statements from Words, Phrases, and Passages’, but I did not yet look up what he meant by this.) If it becomes necessary, I would add such sources at their chronological place and indicate them with a second letter in small type. But for now with the sources as collected, I come to the following corrected and extended timeline listing: - Galadriel is born in Tirion - Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol - Feanor covets Galadriels hair / unfreindlines between them - Galadriel plans to go to Middlee-earth, dwells for a time in Aqualondë. She was prepairing the question to Manwë for leave, when the rebellion of the Noldor started. - Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel is the only women among the debating princes - Kinslaying: Galadriel fights Feanor in defense of the Swanhaven - leads the Noldor across the ice - She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian - Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries - visits Nargothrond - journeys over the mountains with Celeborn (text D, but see next point) - Galadriel crosses the Hitheaglir alone (text C, while Celeborn returns to Doriath, see next point) - Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath (text H, probably we have to add this in the appropriate chapter) - Galadriel hears late of the summons of Eönwë (text K) and returns to Beleriand (where we would suppose Celeborn is meet again). - accepts proudly the ban set on her return by the Valar partly because Celeborn is not willing to leave Middle-earth (text A & H) - ‘In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women.’ (text B) - Galadriel crosses Ered Lindon with Celeborn and they become Lord and Lady of all the Elves of Eriador. (text A & H) - Galadriel goes together with Celeborn to Eregion (text A & H) - Galadriel has contact to Lorien (text H) - revolt of Celebrimbor, Galadriel leaves Eregion and goes to Lorien, Celeborn stayes in Eregion (text H) - The War of Sauron against Eregion: Celebron leads a sortie and joins his forces to Elronds, they establish Imladris. Galadriel remains in Lorien. (text H) - After the War Galadriel joins Celeborn in Imladris (text H), the first White Council is held in Imladris. Celeborn and Galadriel depart to Lorien to ‘fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin.’ They ‘passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien.’ (text E) - Galadriel goes then to Lindon, since ‘Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon’. (text E) - Celeborn and Galadriel return to Lorien (text E, ‘To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age’, first time after the White Council, second time here) - After a sojourn in Imladris they both go to Belfalas. (text H, this is debatable, but otherwise we have no idea where the couple staid at the end of the Second and start of the Thrid Age.) - ‘But during the Third Age Galadriel became filled with foreboding, and with Celeborn she journeyed to Lórien and stayed there long with Amroth’. (text E) - ‘After long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years’. (text E) - In 1981 TA Galadriel and Celeborn return to Lorien after the loss of Amroth and take up the rule there. (text E and text H) Up to the end of the First Age this was nearly fully discussed. Only an addition to the effect of Celeborn being mentioned during the Fall of Doriath is new. If the rest will be fully covered by our text is not so clear, but we should discuss here what our assumptions are and use that as a kind of guideline. That said we must as a matter of fact not come to full agreement about the timeline list, even so that would be great. If the texts we produce can be ambiguity enough to allow all timeline list we sought possible that is fully sufficient. But for that we need of course to know what are the timeline lists look like that each of us has in mind. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: As often before my drafts do as yet not fully cover every development made in this post. But I will not start to change them, before we did not come to some kind of conclusion here. Anyhow, even if I would not have to change anything, still all changes or text constructions in the private drafts have to be numbered and commented and the texts reduced to copy right friendly amount before posting. So please don’t calculate with a fast upcoming of that material. |
04-27-2018, 03:04 PM | #19 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Greetings! As to the first post that addition is splendid and I'm so glad we don't have to use the scantier version from the Sil77, so thank you for finding that!
As to the timeline, as you say, we have been in agreement until the end of the first age. Going forward, as any person who has studied these things knows, their movements quickly become vague and difficult to follow, but I think that is ok. Like you say, much of their movement is simply implied, and we will not need to actually discuss it in our drafts. For instance, Galadriel crossing over the blue mountains before the sack of Doriath is most likely not something we will include in the draft, simply because there is no textual version of this, it is merely extrapolated from her comments in FotR. Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 04-27-2018 at 03:15 PM. |
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04-28-2018, 02:11 PM | #20 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,713
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Nice, then I will look trough my drafts an see if they still fit to these timeline list.
By the way I have found that I did already collect the articles from Words,Phrases & Passages in The Lord of the Rings that are concerned with Galadriel, Celeborn, Celebrimbor, Eregion and Lothlorien. And re-reading them I think I as well found the passage that Galin meant would suggest that Galadriel and Celeborn are out as founders of Eregion. So I will prepair these texts for posting as sources here. But it will take some time. Some of the articles are long. After that we might discuss that special case, but I am still inclined to let the story of Galadriel and Celeborn as founder stand, as well based on a sentence from the same source. Respectfully Findegil |
04-28-2018, 04:32 PM | #21 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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What are the entries you mean? I can check my copy and see if I have any opinions to offer.
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04-29-2018, 02:32 AM | #22 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Hello everybody. Nice that again is resurrected the forum section.
First of all repeat that I have no access to my books and material and only write from memory, but I share this for if I can help. The WPaP text is not earlier than the UT texts? Anyway, the founders of Eregion could be Galadriel and Celeborn as well as Celebrimbor, and later remains Celebrimbor as Lord of Eregion. But turning to the movements of G and C. Evidently they are very difficult to follow, but the temporal line of Findegil, is, for me, correct. And for the first age could be inserted in the texts, in my opinion, with few alterations. -First using a alter in the sentence in Of the realms of Beleriand stated above. -Second inserting at the end of OtRoD a sentence that Celeborn escaped from its ruin. -Third at the end ot the QS in the subsection Of the passing of the Elves inserting a compilation of the K text of Findegil... and there only with an invented clarification of few words that previously Celeborn had returned to Doriath (for me is the only way and so I had done it.) -Then in the Second age, when Galadriel is said that contacted with Lindorinand clarificate with a sentence from Findegil's text D (I think) that she had passed across the mountains before the end of the first age. Greetings |
04-29-2018, 11:14 AM | #23 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,713
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My assumption that Galadriel and Celeborn could be Lord and Lady of Eregion for a time is based on the entrance for 'Celebrimbor' (page 42):
Quote:
And I think Galin was refering to the follwoing sentence in the entrance about 'yrch' (page 53): Quote:
Asked by gondowe: Quote:
Your approach is interesting. Specially the insertion in the last chapter in Of the passing of the Elves. I did in my draft tell part of the story in retrosepct at the beginning of story from UT where Galadriel and Celeborn became Lord and Lady of Eriador. Also the idea of telling of Galadriel earlier visit when she first make contact in the second age is very atractive. Respectfuly Findegil |
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04-29-2018, 04:46 PM | #24 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,713
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Okay, in this post I will give the entrances concerned with Galadriel, Celeborn, Celebrimbor, Eregion and Lorien from Words, Phrases and Passages. Since it was written about 1960, I will give it the reference:
Hh) Parma Eldalamberon XVII, Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings: Quote:
Findegil |
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04-29-2018, 05:16 PM | #25 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I think both of these passages which concern the lordship of Eregion allow for an interpretation in sync with "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn." Neither text says who founded Eregion, and both only refer to the fact that Celebrimbor was lord there at some point. I think there is really no contradiction here at all, simply ambiguity (this seems to be a recurring statement in this thread.)
As for the proposed specific edits, I would need to see them in practice to judge how I view them. Frankly, my conception of the Second Age drafts is not concrete, as I only had brief and general directions to put my own version together. Once I can review some specific drafts for the Second Age, I will be better able to give an opinion. Going forward from there, I can deal better with their Third Age movements (such as they are) since I compiled the entirety of the drafts for the Third Age myself. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 04-29-2018 at 05:21 PM. |
04-30-2018, 02:58 AM | #26 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,713
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Prepairing my draft of the first chapter of the second age stuff for posting is the next point on my agenda (for this projekt).
Respectfuly Findegil |
04-30-2018, 01:55 PM | #27 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Quote:
And so, for the later second edition, Tolkien adds (to the description about the Noldor going to Eregion and mithril and so on) "simply" that: "Celebrimbor was Lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsman; he was descended from Feanor." For me anyway, this addition, author-published, carries a lot of weight. And from this I see no reason to think that anyone else ruled Eregion. In my opinion, with a change of wording JRRT could have here (Appendix B, second edition) tantalizing "left room" for the "Galadriel/Celeborn" tale published in Unfinished Tales ... although I realize too, one could argue that mere brevity (here) might allow it. I argue, rather, that JRRT revised the CG&C version (suggested in WPP I think), and so for the second edition Lord of the Rings, simply told the reader that the Celebrimbor found in the entries (first edition), was indeed the Lord of Eregion, and a descendant of Feanor. This isn't the only reason why I think Galadriel as co-founder/original co-ruler of Eregion was abandoned, but again I realize my approach doesn't necessarily always fit with the guidelines of this project. |
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04-30-2018, 05:57 PM | #28 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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While you may be correct as to Tolkien's intentions behind the revision, you are also right in saying the goals of the project may not align with this. As Tolkien never laid such an intention out explicitly, there is no reason (according to our rules) to enact such a radical change to the text. However, in terms of personal canon, it is definitely a defensible position.
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04-30-2018, 06:22 PM | #29 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,032
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Also, apologies if I'm basically just interrupting there ...
... I just wanted to add a possible answer to the above question, but I don't mean to try to press my opinion into the project. |
04-30-2018, 06:33 PM | #30 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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no worries!
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