Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Actually, I'm 'solicitr'; and I think there are two theories of Elvish (or Noldorin) succession, either of which could explain the known data, but the "eldest male" theory seems to fit all the data better.

A) The succession can pass via the female line in the absence of a son, but not to a female in her own right.

B) The succession passes to the eldest male member of the Royal House

Theory A explains almost everything, including Finrod's title passing to his nephew rather than his sister Galadriel (older than A&A), Turgon's High-Kingship passing to his grandson Earendil not his daughter Idril, Thingol's Heir being his grandson Dior not his daughter Luthien, etc.

However, A comes a cropper under these 3 circumstances:

1. Gil-Galad is Fingon's son
2. Gil-Galad is Finrod's son
3. Gil-galad is Finrod's nephew or great-nephew

In Case 1, Gil-Galad should have become king after the Nirnaeth, not Turgon. In Cases 2 and 3, Elrond as Turgon's great-grandson, distaff or not, would have had a superior claim to any Finarfinian.

And this is why I tend to favor Theory B. It doesn't matter whose son Gil-Galad is; the succession went to the eldest male of the House of Finwe in Middle-earth (not counting the disinherited Feanorians). Had Nargothrond held out longer than Gondolin, Orodreth would have held the title, no matter how briefly, and even if G-G was Fingon's or Finrod's son.

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Of course, externally one can trace how Tolkien created a knot for himself (cf. the matter of female succession in Numenor): it was a given from the time of the Sketch that Turgon succeeded his brother Fingon, and after that it didn't matter because there was no Gil-Galad and for that matter no Second and Third Ages. Since Turgon's family was pretty much set in stone, Gil-Galad like Galadriel had to be shoehorned in somewhere else thanks to the LR.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

(about Arwen, "Queen of Elves and Men") I think... my "HoME" is in storage too... that this is in a draft of the Tale of Years for the LOTR Appendices. Since it was superseded in a text published in Tolkien pere's lifetime, I don't personally think it is very strong proof ... though it has been used on another thread, and needless to say, not by me, in an attempt to prove that Arwen is more or less the supreme being

Hmm, but it's from Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. Arwen the supreme being?

I thought that was *Ilúvamme rather

Originally Posted by WCH

Actually, I'm 'solicitr'...

That's what I thought. Wasn't wholly positive though

Anyway thanks for the clarification above, and sorry for my mashing up of your opinions earlier.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's worth mentioning that the title of High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth passed into abeyance with Gil-Galad's death, probably since there weren't enough Noldor left to constitute a kingdom; Elrond could have claimed it but never did.

However, by marrying a Finarfinian (Celebrian), their children became the senior, in fact only, descendants of Fingolfin, Finarfin and Thingol all three, meaning that Eldarion (whatever title he claimed) was more supremely royal than any previous ruler in the Great Lands.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's worth mentioning that the title of High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth passed into abeyance with Gil-Galad's death, probably since there weren't enough Noldor left to constitute a kingdom; Elrond could have claimed it but never did.

This is absolutely correct. We have a long history of rightful kings in Middle earth eschewing their birthrights when they lack a kingdom to rule. The Chieftains of the Dunedain avoided the title of King, either of Arnor or Gondor. Thorin II never called himself King until after the death of Smaug. Elrond probably could have been named a king had he pushed for it hard enough, but he (like these other examples) chose not to.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, by marrying a Finarfinian (Celebrian), their children became the senior, in fact only, descendants of Fingolfin, Finarfin and Thingol all three, meaning that Eldarion (whatever title he claimed) was more supremely royal than any previous ruler in the Great Lands.

Eldarion represented a union of every royal line blessed by the Valar in recorded history, excluding the dispossessed House of Fëanor: descended from the royal house of the Vanyar via Indis > Fingolfin and Finarfin; descended from Finwe via the same, descended from Fingolfin via Turgon > Idril > Ëarendil > Elrond (> Arwen) and Elros (> Kings of Numenor > Lords of Andúnië > Kings of Arnor and Gondor); descended from Finarfin via Galadriel > Celebrian > Arwen; descended from Olwë via Ëarwen > Galadriel, etc...; descended from Elu Thingol and Melian via Luthien > Dior > Elwing > Elrond, etc...; furthermore, he was descended from all three houses of the Edain.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Just thought of what JRRT coulda done (a non-canonical solution):

Orodreth:
The third child and second son of Finarfin, Rodnor (later called Orodreth for his love of mountains) held the fortress of Minas Tirith as his brother Finrod's deputy during the Siege of Angband. Orodreth was dutiful, soldierly and wise, although his wisdom inclined toward the path of vigilance and defence rather than bold strokes. His skilled and silent scouts ensured that no servant of the Enemy passed the Vale of Sirion unmarked so long as the Siege lasted; and later in Nargothrond the same skill made the Guarded Plain a barrier almost as impenetrable as the Girdle of Melian. He thought the League of Maedhros was folly and sent no army, though he did not prevent Gwindor from leading a company of those Nargothrondrim who would not be left out.

Orodreth wedded very late for an Elda, his duties as Lieutenant of Minas Tirith absorbing all his attention. But after he removed to Nargothrond he had little to do as the King's younger brother, and there he fell in love with and married Aeriel, a lady of the Falathrim.* Their first child, a daughter, Finduilas, was born on the day news arrived of the death of Fingon in Tol-en-Ngaurhoth, which was taken by many as a bad omen. However, it was taken by many likewise as a sign of hope when their son, Finellach, was born in the spring of the year when Beren and Luthien returned to the living, and in which Maedhros had victory (so it seemed) over the Orcs and freed Beleriand for a time.

After the Nirnaeth Orodreth had a dark premonition that Nargothrond would fall, and having something of his brother's foresight understood that the hope of the Noldor lay with the sea and the protection of Ulmo. Therefore he sent his young son to be fostered with his mother's people at the Havens. Alas, Morgoth would sack the Falas before the year was out; but Finellach was among those who escaped with Cirdan to establish a refuge on the Isle of Balar. He would never see Nargothrond or his parents again, and for the rest of his long life preferred to dwell within sight of the Sea. As King in the next age of the world (when he as known more usually by his epesse Gil-Galad) Finellach was seen to be courteous but withdrawn and solitary, opening his heart to none but his foster-father the Shipwright, and taking no wife.

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*Aerial was a remote kinswoman of Cirdan and thus of Olwe and Elwe, whose first husband was one of the Noldorin ambassadors Finrod had sent early on to the Sindar, and who brought her home to Nargothrond. However, he was slain in the Bragollach at the side of Gelmir son of Guilin.

It is said that Celegorm's and Curufin's dealings with Orodreth became markedly more scornful after he wed one of "inferior race," as they saw it.

[Orphalesion]

Well if we are sharing our headcanons regardin Orodreth/Gil-Galad:

Orodreth:

Orodreth was the eldest child, and only son of Angrod, the second son of Finarfin) and his wife Edhellos. He had one sister; Halloth, the Maiden of Dorthonion, born in the shaded woods of Middle Earth.
Though born during the days of bliss in Aman he was but a youth when the Trees were extinguished. Quiet and reluctant to contest his will with others he often fled Tirion, where the house of his father stood, to wander the hidden mountain paths by himself, singing as he did so.
During the Flight of the Noldor he was the only among the sons and grandsons of Finarfin that supported his grandsire's counsel to keep faith in the Valar and refrain from going to war against Morgoth. He did this not because of fear of the dark Vala or the hardship ahead, but because he had little thirst for vengeance or glory for his mind was always seeking not to rule and conquer, but to serve and protect. Still he joined the rebellion because of the love he bore his father and Finrod, his uncle.
In Middle Earth he felt great love for the lands of Angrod in Dorthonion and often wandered through its high pine forests. he also often went among the Sindar of that land, a rustic woodland folk. Among those he found his love and wife; a proud and lively huntress he named Meril, the rose, and under that name she was ever known among the Noldor.
When Finrod went to found Nargothrond he chose his nephew, rather than his youngest brother, Aegnor to be his steward in Minas Tirith, for he knew Tol Sirion needed a defender rather than a warrior. It was her that Orodreth's first child, Finduilas was born who inherited the golden hair of House Finarfin and grew to become much skilled in the ways of healing, a skill that would soon be sorely needed.
After the Dagor Bragollach he held Minas Tirith faithfully, only abandoning it after shielding the escape of not only his own people, but many of those who fled from the burning hills of Dorthonion, only at the last minute he abandoned his fortress to escape to Nargothrond himself.
There, Meril gave birth to his second child not long before Beren arrived in the Hidden City. This one was a son, whom Orodreth called Rodnor, but Meril called the child Gil-Galad With his last words to Orodreth Finrod asked his nephew to send Gil-Galad to be fostered by Cirdan to keep him safe, for he saw dark times ahead, but also that the child should one day lead the Noldor, naming him Ereinion, the Scion of Kings. Orodreth did as he was told, sending Meril and Ereinion to the Falathrim, but Finduilas refused to leave her father alone and remained at his side, serving dutifully as a healer for Nargothrond in the dark days to come.
So Gil-Galad grew up on the isle of Balar, learning much wisdom from Cirdan, and trained in martial arts by th warriors of the Falathrim from whom he learned to especially wield the spear, but he never saw his father or sister again.