Sad or Elated now the Movies are at an End? - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 06-06-2015, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Lotrelf, I think that that's the big issue: apathy. Here I am, obviously a Tolkien fan, and yet I pass when given an opportunity to view any of the Hobbit movies (for free on TV). Been there done that; don't want the T-shirt.

With TH, I agree that PJ even missed the dubious mark he'd set on LOTR for creating controversy.
The earlier films were a galvanizing force among both longtime Tolkien fans and those who'd never read the books, as evidenced not least by the spirited debates on this forum.

Now, the film fans say "meh", and the staunch PJ critics say "did you expect anything different?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Not a big comic book fan, but I will watch the 1st Avengers movie should it be on (and I have time to be near the TV). It's definitely more watchable as the director makes the superheroes approachable, and you find yourself caring a little about their plight.

I'm not one for reading "graphic novels" myself, but I've enjoyed the Marvel movies the last decade has brought. I'd rather watch Ian McKellen as this guy

any day.

The Marvel films as a rule don't take themselves very seriously, and even when they don't fire on all cylinders are, as you say, watchable.
Of course, I'm not at all concerned with how those films line up with their comic origins, in total opposition with my feelings about Tolkien books, and that's a big difference.

alatar · 06-06-2015, 08:34 PM

Well, if not Marvel, then what about the Harry Potter movies? Surely there are those who would argue (both for and against) about whether each HP movie was true to its book or not.

Regardless, the HP movies are highly rewatchable and curiously focus on the title character, unlike those in the Hobbit trilogy. Wonder if that has something to do with the movies' watchabilities?

Like Dumbledore says, "Actually, if I think about it, it doesn't seem curious at all."

***Mister Underhill*** · 06-06-2015, 09:38 PM

Personally I have tried to embrace this era of cinematic super-people (arguably P.J.'s adaptations, especially his elvish shenanigans, are influenced by them), but mostly they leave me cold. I enjoyed Avengers through the lens of being an old Whedon fan, but even the latest one just sort of clanked away by the end of its busy CGI climax. I sort of miss the frail human-sized (and hobbit-sized) heroes of yesteryear. Which only goes to show, different strokes for different folks.

To the point of the thread: I am, elf-like, both sad and -- well, I can't say elated, maybe relieved is a better word -- that the films are now complete. Yes, it was basically all down hill after the (arguably!) middling watermark set by FotR EE, but even so. For a while there practically the whole world dreamed a dream of Middle-earth, and it was kind of beautiful. If truly irredeemable Hobbit films are the price I had to pay for the years of friendships and fun I've been able to enjoy here, then I came out on the rich end of that exchange for sure.

Inziladun · 06-07-2015, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Well, if not Marvel, then what about the Harry Potter movies? Surely there are those who would argue (both for and against) about whether each HP movie was true to its book or not.

Regardless, the HP movies are highly rewatchable and curiously focus on the title character, unlike those in the Hobbit trilogy. Wonder if that has something to do with the movies' watchabilities?

That's a good point about the HP not really losing focus.
Also, I can't at the moment recall any characters receiving major re-writes in contradiction to the books, or characters added that never appeared in the books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Personally I have tried to embrace this era of cinematic super-people (arguably P.J.'s adaptations, especially his elvish shenanigans, are influenced by them), but mostly they leave me cold. I enjoyed Avengers through the lens of being an old Whedon fan, but even the latest one just sort of clanked away by the end of its busy CGI climax. I sort of miss the frail human-sized (and hobbit-sized) heroes of yesteryear. Which only goes to show, different strokes for different folks.

I'm not a big fan of CGI myself. I think it's come to be an attraction in itself, with filmmakers vying to see how pretty they can make things look, at the expense of meaningful character and story development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

To the point of the thread: I am, elf-like, both sad and -- well, I can't say elated, maybe relieved is a better word -- that the films are now complete. Yes, it was basically all down hill after the (arguably!) middling watermark set by FotR EE, but even so. For a while there practically the whole world dreamed a dream of Middle-earth, and it was kind of beautiful. If truly irredeemable Hobbit films are the price I had to pay for the years of friendships and fun I've been able to enjoy here, then I came out on the rich end of that exchange for sure.

Though I will never embrace Jackson's Tolkien efforts, I agree that at least the FOTR films, like I said earlier, were good for some rip-roarin', fun debates. I remember those days with fondness, Mister U.

It's that much more unfortunate that the Hobbit movies can't even seem to manage that.

alatar · 06-07-2015, 06:47 PM

Mr. Underhill, if I'm reading you right, I too started getting tired of the smashing robotfest that was Avengers II. Thankfully it was cut short, and the movie got back to other business.

Another mark against the Hobbit movies is that the LotR trilogy not only inspired me to join a Tolkien internet forum, but also to post weekly about groups of scenes where I carped about PJ's every misstep.

Not so here.

Lotrelf · 06-08-2015, 05:04 AM

Quote:

"Obviously The Hobbit is the story of Thorin Oakenshield¡¯s quest for the Lonely Mountain, and Lord of the Rings is the story of Frodo¡¯s journey to try to destroy the ring. But they are nonetheless connected and they feed into each other and are in the same world."

Wow! This is weird.
And did the movie makers really read the book? I have nothing much to say on this but can someone gift a bunch of TH books to PJ & co. as they literally took the different meaning of the narrative? Perhaps this is the reason the movies are full of war stuff? The story of a king, his quest to get back his kingdom and wealth seem to have affected them a lot.

Zigûr · 06-08-2015, 06:13 AM

Yes I think it's interesting that the way PJ sees it is that he adapted "The Lord of the Rings" to be the story of a hobbit, but didn't adapt "The Hobbit" to be the story of a hobbit.

As for superhero films, of the recent (2008 onwards) batch I've enjoyed the first Iron Man, Thor and Captain America films (particularly Captain America) but I'm a bit bored of them now. At the same time, I am something of a comic book reader, but I mostly like old Fantastic Four and Captain America comics, at least as far as Marvel is concerned. I haven't read DC comics in a while. The changes they make for the films generally don't bother me too much because comic book stories are always changing, and they're collaborations of authors and artists with creative teams which change over time. For me there's a difference between, say, Marvel studios coming up with their own version of the Captain America story, which has already been through several iterations, and New Line adapting The Hobbit.

That being said, when they're adapting a specific comic, as they did with Captain America: The Winter Soldier, for instance, I do think they sometimes err when they diverge too heavily from the source material.

One of the things I think they missed was an opportunity to focus on the idea of the small person, Bilbo, among the events of history. By showing us too much, like Gandalf at Dol Guldur and the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, not only do we lose focus on Bilbo in general but we lose that sense of history going on around the protagonist just as much as he is involved in shaping it. Bilbo is very important to his own narrative, but I'd argue that it's equally important that he only glimpses the rest of what's been going on: the Necromancer is mentioned, but not seen. The War of the Dwarves and Orcs is mentioned, and Bilbo himself mentions it to Bard and the Elvenking, so evidently he knows or is informed about it at some point (apart from the party at the beginning I mean, in which Azog is mentioned), and the various goings on of the Dwarves and Men and Elves and so forth are all mentioned but the only frame of reference we really have, apart from a few more omniscient narrator moments, are things Bilbo learns, either at the time or after the fact.

That, I would argue, contains that "unexplained vistas" notion of which Professor Tolkien was fond. The films aren't willing to hold back, and disclose too much, which for me at least broke the illusion: perhaps it ought to be left to our imagination regarding what happened at Dol Guldur, for instance. Films are obviously a visual medium, but I often feel as if directors are too reluctant to convey information through dialogue. "The Hobbit" is one of those films where if you watched it with the sound off, you would probably be able to still have a vague idea of what was going on, significantly because of its obsession with cutaways and flashbacks.

Belegorn · 06-13-2015, 05:57 PM

I think about it in this way, that there will be other adaptations which makes it not the end all be all. Maybe the Hobbit will be one movie too in the future.

Lotrelf · 06-14-2015, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think about it in this way, that there will be other adaptations which makes it not the end all be all. Maybe the Hobbit will be one movie too in the future.

Do fans make the movies too? If they do I suppose the film will be closer to the book's story as they won't have anything to show-off to earn money except the story and the real substance. Not sure if any big name in Hollywood can do the deserved justice to the book (in present time), but can hope this from fans if there are any adaptations from them.

Faramir Jones · 06-17-2015, 04:59 AM

I was interested in your last comments, Belegorn and Lotrelf. I'm sure that there will, in the future, be other adaptations of The Hobbit. The more the better, including by fellow fans, so we can put the Jackson adaptations in a proper context.

Faramir Jones · 06-18-2015, 01:35 PM

On a more amusing note, I came across this song about the movies, It's Still Middle Earth to Me, to the tune of Billy Joel's It's Still Rock and Roll to Me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiePj-wxx4s

What do people think?

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-27-2015, 02:12 PM

Well, now that it's over at least (with any luck) the PJ fanboys will go away and leave us alone.

Faramir Jones · 06-27-2015, 06:19 PM

I think some of the 'PJ fanboys' might reemerge when the next adaptation of Tolkien's works comes along.

Morthoron · 06-27-2015, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I think some of the 'PJ fanboys' might reemerge when the next adaptation of Tolkien's works comes along.

Via an HBO series that take liberties with the story (but more R-rated and melodramatic than Jackson's juvenile fart jokes). It will be called A Game of Halflings. Nearly a third of the dinner guests will be slaughtered at Bilbo's eleventieth birthday party.

Belegorn · 06-28-2015, 11:01 AM

There are even some significant changed in George Martin's Game of Thrones from the books and he's still alive. They don't even show Reaghar's son who's still alive and is supposed to be gathering his armies to take Westeros. Although, if Jon Sno really is Rheagar's and Lyanna Stark's son they might be working that angle instead of Danny and her other nephew.

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-09-2015, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Via an HBO series that take liberties with the story (but more R-rated and melodramatic than Jackson's juvenile fart jokes). It will be called A Game of Halflings. Nearly a third of the dinner guests will be slaughtered at Bilbo's eleventieth birthday party.

And full frontal nudity! (Gimli has a brief, torrid and explicit love affair with an Elf-maid named Porniel...)

Faramir Jones · 07-14-2015, 08:54 AM

After reading what you wrote here, William:

And full frontal nudity! (Gimli has a brief, torrid and explicit love affair with an Elf-maid named Porniel...)

I concluded that anyone who did this could argue in favour of support from Tolkien, as Celeborn was given by him at one time the name Teleporno.

06-06-2015, 08:34 PM	#42
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Well, if not Marvel, then what about the Harry Potter movies? Surely there are those who would argue (both for and against) about whether each HP movie was true to its book or not. Regardless, the HP movies are highly rewatchable and curiously focus on the title character, unlike those in the Hobbit trilogy. Wonder if that has something to do with the movies' watchabilities? Like Dumbledore says, "Actually, if I think about it, it doesn't seem curious at all." __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-07-2015, 06:47 PM	#45
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Mr. Underhill, if I'm reading you right, I too started getting tired of the smashing robotfest that was Avengers II. Thankfully it was cut short, and the movie got back to other business. Another mark against the Hobbit movies is that the LotR trilogy not only inspired me to join a Tolkien internet forum, but also to post weekly about groups of scenes where I carped about PJ's every misstep. Not so here. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-08-2015, 06:13 AM	#47
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	Yes I think it's interesting that the way PJ sees it is that he adapted "The Lord of the Rings" to be the story of a hobbit, but didn't adapt "The Hobbit" to be the story of a hobbit. As for superhero films, of the recent (2008 onwards) batch I've enjoyed the first Iron Man, Thor and Captain America films (particularly Captain America) but I'm a bit bored of them now. At the same time, I am something of a comic book reader, but I mostly like old Fantastic Four and Captain America comics, at least as far as Marvel is concerned. I haven't read DC comics in a while. The changes they make for the films generally don't bother me too much because comic book stories are always changing, and they're collaborations of authors and artists with creative teams which change over time. For me there's a difference between, say, Marvel studios coming up with their own version of the Captain America story, which has already been through several iterations, and New Line adapting The Hobbit. That being said, when they're adapting a specific comic, as they did with Captain America: The Winter Soldier, for instance, I do think they sometimes err when they diverge too heavily from the source material. One of the things I think they missed was an opportunity to focus on the idea of the small person, Bilbo, among the events of history. By showing us too much, like Gandalf at Dol Guldur and the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, not only do we lose focus on Bilbo in general but we lose that sense of history going on around the protagonist just as much as he is involved in shaping it. Bilbo is very important to his own narrative, but I'd argue that it's equally important that he only glimpses the rest of what's been going on: the Necromancer is mentioned, but not seen. The War of the Dwarves and Orcs is mentioned, and Bilbo himself mentions it to Bard and the Elvenking, so evidently he knows or is informed about it at some point (apart from the party at the beginning I mean, in which Azog is mentioned), and the various goings on of the Dwarves and Men and Elves and so forth are all mentioned but the only frame of reference we really have, apart from a few more omniscient narrator moments, are things Bilbo learns, either at the time or after the fact. That, I would argue, contains that "unexplained vistas" notion of which Professor Tolkien was fond. The films aren't willing to hold back, and disclose too much, which for me at least broke the illusion: perhaps it ought to be left to our imagination regarding what happened at Dol Guldur, for instance. Films are obviously a visual medium, but I often feel as if directors are too reluctant to convey information through dialogue. "The Hobbit" is one of those films where if you watched it with the sound off, you would probably be able to still have a vague idea of what was going on, significantly because of its obsession with cutaways and flashbacks. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.

06-13-2015, 05:57 PM	#48
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	I think about it in this way, that there will be other adaptations which makes it not the end all be all. Maybe the Hobbit will be one movie too in the future. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche

06-17-2015, 04:59 AM	#50
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Look to the future I was interested in your last comments, Belegorn and Lotrelf. I'm sure that there will, in the future, be other adaptations of The Hobbit. The more the better, including by fellow fans, so we can put the Jackson adaptations in a proper context.

06-06-2015, 09:38 PM	#43
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	Personally I have tried to embrace this era of cinematic super-people (arguably P.J.'s adaptations, especially his elvish shenanigans, are influenced by them), but mostly they leave me cold. I enjoyed Avengers through the lens of being an old Whedon fan, but even the latest one just sort of clanked away by the end of its busy CGI climax. I sort of miss the frail human-sized (and hobbit-sized) heroes of yesteryear. Which only goes to show, different strokes for different folks. To the point of the thread: I am, elf-like, both sad and -- well, I can't say elated, maybe relieved is a better word -- that the films are now complete. Yes, it was basically all down hill after the (arguably!) middling watermark set by FotR EE, but even so. For a while there practically the whole world dreamed a dream of Middle-earth, and it was kind of beautiful. If truly irredeemable Hobbit films are the price I had to pay for the years of friendships and fun I've been able to enjoy here, then I came out on the rich end of that exchange for sure.

06-18-2015, 01:35 PM	#51
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	It's Still Middle Earth to Me On a more amusing note, I came across this song about the movies, It's Still Middle Earth to Me, to the tune of Billy Joel's It's Still Rock and Roll to Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiePj-wxx4s What do people think?

06-27-2015, 02:12 PM	#52
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	Well, now that it's over at least (with any luck) the PJ fanboys will go away and leave us alone. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

06-27-2015, 06:19 PM	#53
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Wait till another adaptation comes along I think some of the 'PJ fanboys' might reemerge when the next adaptation of Tolkien's works comes along.

06-28-2015, 11:01 AM	#55
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	There are even some significant changed in George Martin's Game of Thrones from the books and he's still alive. They don't even show Reaghar's son who's still alive and is supposed to be gathering his armies to take Westeros. Although, if Jon Sno really is Rheagar's and Lyanna Stark's son they might be working that angle instead of Danny and her other nephew. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche

07-14-2015, 08:54 AM	#57
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Support from canon? After reading what you wrote here, William: And full frontal nudity! (Gimli has a brief, torrid and explicit love affair with an Elf-maid named Porniel...) I concluded that anyone who did this could argue in favour of support from Tolkien, as Celeborn was given by him at one time the name Teleporno.