Why did the Wise not bow to the Hobbits? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lotrelf · 09-01-2014, 08:31 AM

At the end of Return of the King everyone bows to the Hobbits in their honor but the Wise i.e. Gandalf and Elrond and even Legolas too, if I remember that. Why were they left out? Does it have any special significance or was it a miss from the movie makers' pov?

Andsigil · 09-02-2014, 04:15 AM

Rank.

Istari and Elf-lords outrank ring-bearers.

Lotrelf · 09-04-2014, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Rank.

Istari and Elf-lords outrank ring-bearers.

But not for Tolkien.

Mithalwen · 09-04-2014, 05:36 AM

Elrond and Gandalf were ringbearers. And the cynical might point out that the hobbits were their pawns..noo the one ring is too dangerous for us... off you trot now...

Inziladun · 09-04-2014, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Elrond and Gandalf were ringbearers. And the cynical might point out that the hobbits were their pawns..noo the one ring is too dangerous for us... off you trot now...

Heh. RHIP. It reminds me of the Bored of the Rings line where Frito says something like "I don't remember volunteering for this Ring business."

Puddleglum · 09-05-2014, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Heh. RHIP. It reminds me of the Bored of the Rings line where Frito says something like "I don't remember volunteering for this Ring business."

No one was very noble in that book. Didn't Goodgulf run up the white flag declaring "better Sorhed than No Head"?

Inziladun · 09-05-2014, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

No one was very noble in that book. Didn't Goodgulf run up the white flag declaring "better Sorhed than No Head"?

I don't recall that specifically, but I do remember Frito positing ideas for getting rid of the Ring, and Goodgulf saying 'Alas, it is not that easy.'
'But why?'
'Alas,' explained Goodgulf.
'Alackaday,' Orlon agreed.

Now if PJ had aimed for parody, I might be much more forgiving toward these films.

Lotrelf · 09-05-2014, 08:10 PM

I feel I should have started this thread in ME Mirth. -!- As for the Hobbits, I feel, the reason may be Merry and Pip too whose deeds were not as great as those of the Ring-bearers but they, too, stood there with them. IDK, I am wondering if there's something by Peter Jackson that shows his decision that sort of contradicts with Professor Tolkien's.

Inziladun · 09-05-2014, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I feel I should have started this thread in ME Mirth. -!- As for the Hobbits, I feel, the reason may be Merry and Pip too whose deeds were not as great as those of the Ring-bearers but they, too, stood there with them. IDK, I am wondering if there's something by Peter Jackson that shows his decision that sort of contradicts with Professor Tolkien's.

Sorry about the tangent.
In the book, of course, it is only Frodo and Sam who are honored at Cormallen. Merry and Pippin are in a serving capacity.
I think Jackson didn't consider the book was clear enough when it came to acknowledging the fact that the Ring's destruction was brought about by the labor of many, who each played their own part, Frodo had suffered the most, physically and spiritually, though Sam had been his master's greatest support.
If anyone was deserving of a bow, it was Gandalf. After all, Sauron's destruction had been his sole occupation for centuries.

Lotrelf · 09-05-2014, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sorry about the tangent.
In the book, of course, it is only Frodo and Sam who are honored at Cormallen. Merry and Pippin are in a serving capacity.
I think Jackson didn't consider the book was clear enough when it came to acknowledging the fact that the Ring's destruction was brought about by the labor of many, who each played their own part, Frodo had suffered the most, physically and spiritually, though Sam had been his master's greatest support.
If anyone was deserving of a bow, it was Gandalf. After all, Sauron's destruction had been his sole occupation for centuries.

Gandalf indeed deserved the bow and honour. But I can't agree he did deserve more than the two Hobbits. Gandalf fought the Evil with the Powers he was given and never faced the threat that the hobbits did. Frodo and Sam go to Mordor without any aid (except each other's company) and that is the sole reason why they deserved the highest honor. Elrond's remark of Frodo's place being among the great Elf-friends is one of the signs why he and Sam should be considered in the highest regard. Gandalf being a powerful Maia doesn't degrade him as a great personality but it does increase the Hobbits'.

Galadriel55 · 09-23-2014, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Gandalf indeed deserved the bow and honour. But I can't agree he did deserve more than the two Hobbits. Gandalf fought the Evil with the Powers he was given and never faced the threat that the hobbits did. Frodo and Sam go to Mordor without any aid (except each other's company) and that is the sole reason why they deserved the highest honor. Elrond's remark of Frodo's place being among the great Elf-friends is one of the signs why he and Sam should be considered in the highest regard. Gandalf being a powerful Maia doesn't degrade him as a great personality but it does increase the Hobbits'.

I would say the only reason Frodo and Sam deserve the bow more than Gandalf is because destroying Sauron was Gandalf's task and main occupation in ME. It was his raison-d'etre-in-ME (literally). And it was his, specifically his, task. Frodo and Sam were volunteers, out of thousands of people who were affected by Sauron and who even fought against Sauron. Specifically they did not have to do anything, and yet they took on the lead roles. Though you could argue that Gandalf also did not want to go to ME when the Istari were chosen... argh.

As for the movie screwing things up, well, it's not a first.

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-09-2015, 01:06 AM

Mebbe cause the Mass Bow was ordered by Elessar, who might be King of Gondor and Overlord of Rohan, but couldn't claim to be the boss o' those highfalutin' Elf-lords and Wizards

Pervinca Took · 07-11-2015, 01:13 PM

Why Frodo and Sam alone deserved that particular bow:

'Expected to find a way where the Great Ones could not, or would not, go.'

The terrible danger of going into enemy territory and facing capture and torture.

Plus actually *carrying* the Ring there.

Both of which were Frodo and Sam's doing, and no-one else's. (Not even Gollum's, really).

And the fact that the destruction of the Ring was the lynchpin, without which all the other efforts and acts of heroism would have been in vain.

A huge accomplishment, and the Field of Cormallen (the canonical location of the bow) was the place where that accomplishment was honoured. There were other memorials, one presumes (there were songs, at least), for the battles.

09-01-2014, 08:31 AM	#1
Lotrelf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 265	Why did the Wise not bow to the Hobbits? At the end of Return of the King everyone bows to the Hobbits in their honor but the Wise i.e. Gandalf and Elrond and even Legolas too, if I remember that. Why were they left out? Does it have any special significance or was it a miss from the movie makers' pov? __________________ A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles

09-02-2014, 04:15 AM	#2
Andsigil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin Posts: 733	Rank. Istari and Elf-lords outrank ring-bearers. __________________ Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness.

09-04-2014, 05:36 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Elrond and Gandalf were ringbearers. And the cynical might point out that the hobbits were their pawns..noo the one ring is too dangerous for us... off you trot now... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-05-2014, 08:10 PM	#8
Lotrelf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 265	I feel I should have started this thread in ME Mirth. -!- As for the Hobbits, I feel, the reason may be Merry and Pip too whose deeds were not as great as those of the Ring-bearers but they, too, stood there with them. IDK, I am wondering if there's something by Peter Jackson that shows his decision that sort of contradicts with Professor Tolkien's. __________________ A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles

07-09-2015, 01:06 AM	#12
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	Mebbe cause the Mass Bow was ordered by Elessar, who might be King of Gondor and Overlord of Rohan, but couldn't claim to be the boss o' those highfalutin' Elf-lords and Wizards __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

07-11-2015, 01:13 PM	#13
Pervinca Took Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials Posts: 5,035	Why Frodo and Sam alone deserved that particular bow: 'Expected to find a way where the Great Ones could not, or would not, go.' The terrible danger of going into enemy territory and facing capture and torture. Plus actually carrying the Ring there. Both of which were Frodo and Sam's doing, and no-one else's. (Not even Gollum's, really). And the fact that the destruction of the Ring was the lynchpin, without which all the other efforts and acts of heroism would have been in vain. A huge accomplishment, and the Field of Cormallen (the canonical location of the bow) was the place where that accomplishment was honoured. There were other memorials, one presumes (there were songs, at least), for the battles. __________________ "Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always."