Finrod, Andreth, and the coming of Eru

[Angry Hill Troll]

There's a very curious passage in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (Morgoth's Ring: HoME X) in which Tolkien appears to be giving Middle Earth a much more explicitly Christian outlook than he seems to at any other point in his work.

[Andreth] How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?

'He is already in it, as well as outside,' said Finrod. 'But indeed the "in-dwelling" and the "out-living" are not in the same mode.'

'Truly,' said Andreth. 'So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Eä?'

'Ask me not,' said Finrod. These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words may mislead us, and that when you say "greater" you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less.

'But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seens to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end..., then Eru must come in to conquer him.

'More: even if Melkor (or the Morgoth that he has become) could in any way be thrown down or thrust from Arda, still his Shadow would remain, and the evil that he has wrought and sown as a seed would wax and multiply. And if any new remedy for this is to be found, ere all is ended, any new light to oppose the shadow, or any medicine for the wounds: then it must, I deem, come from without.'

Is Tolkien saying that at some point in the future (at least in Finrod's view) a Christ-figure (an incarnation of Eru) will come to ME and set things aright? Of course in the actual casting out of Morgoth from Arda, Eru didn't personally intervene, as Finrod seems to imagine. So in that event is Tolkien saying that that is the difference between ME and Christianity: that Eru isn't going to appear in person, and thus there will be no foreseeable way for Arda to be cleansed of Morgoth?

[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

These passages do have a far more explicitly Christian outlook. The broad questions and points that appear in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth clearly relate to Tolkien's own Catholic background. If Middle-earth is the early phase of our own world, which Tolkien indeed maintained, then the ideas in the Athrabeth point towards the very distant future (not the future of our contemporary world, but that of Middle-earth itself) when, according to Tolkien's beliefs, the Incarnation would occur. With these passages, Tolkien extends his time line far beyond Middle-earth into our own historical world.

In his commentary, Christopher Tolkien comments on the quotations which you've put forward (p. 335). He says that Finrod's statements about having Eru be both "inside" and "outside" the World in effect suggest the "possibility of complexity or of distinctions in the nature of Eru, which nonetheless leaves him 'The One'". Tolkien's discussion of inside and outside thus prefigures the concept of the Trinity and how Christ would come not to Middle-earth but to our own historical world. In the same way Tolkien referred to another "theological" event in Morgoth's Ring -- the fall of Man -- as depicted in the Tale of Adanel.

The passages you quote do relate to the fate of Morgoth, but only indirectly I believe. As a traditional Christian, Tolkien believed that all of history was inevitably a series of defeats punctuated with small, temporary victories, and that final victory was not possible until the end of time. So in that sense, your suggestion is correct. In Tolkien's view, there can be no final defeat of Morgoth or his minions, or the cleansing of the stain on Arda, until that end of time comes about. And undoubtedly Tolkien would have seen the actual Incarnation (the references to Eru being both inside and outside Arda) as an essential ingredient in that respect.

BTW, I've always found these final writings of Tolkien to be fascinating for any number of reasons, including the whole question of what happens to Elves at the end of time, how Men viewed their own situation when compared to that of the Elves, and the personage of Andreth herself. I had put up another thread on Andreth and Adanel some time ago, and have bumped that forward now to see if anyone has any more comments to add to the discussion.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Quite. Illuvatar is what, in the mythology of Tolkien, what I feel to be the most fundamental part of it all. And the most interesting; beyond the Elves and the legends of invented Arda, there is a portrayal of God.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Child, thanks for pointing out CT's comment on this passage!

The passages you quote do relate to the fate of Morgoth, but only indirectly I believe.

I worded the last part a little carelessly! The casting out of Morgoth the incarnated being was accomplished without Eru's intervention. Of course the War of Wrath did not accomplish the removal of Melkor's taint upon Arda, resulting from the dispersal of his original being into the physical world. I'm not quite sure which of these two things Finrod meant. At first reading I took the phrase "conquer him" to mean the overpowering of Morgoth the physical being, as well as removal of his Shadow, and that he (Finrod) believed that neither was possible without Eru's intervention. But maybe Finrod foresaw that Morgoth could be overpowered (with help from Aman) but is simply saying that a military victory won't make the world that much better of a place, rather that the definitive victory must be achieved on a metaphysical level (and is beyond the capabilities of anyone save Eru).

Certainly, this passage very much embodies Tolkien's own religious beliefs, and to my my mind it gives a rather interesting and novel view of christian theology, projected as it is onto Tolkien's mythical realm. Still, I find it curious that nowhere else in Tolkien's works, is there a suggestion of Eru incarnating Himself. If I remember correctly, Eru is only mentioned once in LOTR, in the Appendix relating the destruction of Numenor. Did Tolkien simply not decide to treat theological and religious themes until later in his life?

[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[Finwe]

In Morgoth's Ring, it is said that all of Arda itself was Morgoth's "Ring," and that to fully destroy him, and remove all the vestiges of his power, Arda itself would have to be destroyed. Isn't that what Andreth was talking about? If Eru "The Measureless" entered into Arda, it would be destroyed, therefore completely vanquishing Morgoth for all time.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Angry hill troll; the idea of Eru Illuvatar has neccessarily been in the conception since just about its beginning. This itself is insightful into God, something that is augmented by the end-incarnation idea.

When this came into Tolkien's writings, I don't know. Someone else had probably better answer this. Notwithstanding that it may have come in later, although I seem to recall it in the Lost Tales in some form, the idea of the God Illuvatar is strong (not always obviously present, but that's the beauty of it. Sorry to sound like a television literary critic there), powerful and insightful in its entirety.

Finwe - I can ascertain one thing, and that is that the idea, that of destruction of the world in order to destroy Melkor, comes from the beginning.

And it is said that he shall destroy the world to destroy his foe (Morgoth)...

That is from the Lost Tales. Since Melkor has in fact managed to get into the very fibres of the world, he cannot be vanquished until it is as well; or at least unMarred, but that is an act that only Illuvatar can, perhaps, perform. But the allusion seems to be that he will break it. We can't determine the specifications of the Last Battle beyond the allusions and premonitions-written that we have - I tend to say one thing 'wait and see', to that.

[davem]

This attempt to tie in the Legendarium with 'our' history is a difficult area. Clearly, if ME is our world in the ancient past, & if, as Tolkien apparently beleived, even the Pagan religions contained intimations of the incarnation (cf Mythopoea), then one can see that the Elves, particularly the High Elves, may have had some awareness, at least of the idea of the Incarnation.

Not knowing much theology, I don't know if Satan is believed to have 'suffused' himself into the fabric of the world, so i can't say how much this idea of Eru & Morgoth is exactly like the Christian concept. In other words, is this Tolkien dressing orthodox Christian belief in ME clothes? Or is it qualitatively different - in which case, is Tolkien actually referring to the Incarnation of Christ in this passage, or a kind of ME echo?

Finally, didn't Tolkien state that he felt the Arthurian legends 'failed' in some way, because they brought in the Christian religion too prominently, & so confused the Secondary world of Logres/Camelot with the primary world. It seems strange that Tolkien would attempt the same 'confusion'.

[lindil]

davem posted:

I don't know if Satan is believed to have 'suffused' himself into the fabric of the world, so i can't say how much this idea of Eru & Morgoth is exactly like the Christian concept. In other words, is this Tolkien dressing orthodox Christian belief in ME clothes? Or is it qualitatively different ...

In Orthodox Christian [and I presume older Catholic] Theology, Man was understood to be the link for the vivifying Spirit between God and creation. A sort of energetic step down station, if you will. When Man fell [and failed to repent, but engaged in a blame game] this severed the link. So the loss of the Spirit in nature [though there are still echoes of it, as there are in Man] was due to Man, and only indirectly to the fallen Angels.

However the Story of the Flood indicates that Man's very presence [or at least an overwhelming number of 'bad guys'] also caused a pollution, in addtion to the havoc wreaked by the fall. The fallen Angels also played a part in this, but never as far as i have heard, tainting all of creation ditrectly as Morgoth did.

Finally, didn't Tolkien state that he felt the Arthurian legends 'failed' in some way, because they brought in the Christian religion too prominently, & so confused the Secondary world of Logres/Camelot with the primary world. It seems strange that Tolkien would attempt the same 'confusion'.

I recall the Arthurian quote, a quick peruse through Letters did not show any Arthurian/myth [just non-related references] entries after the Athrabeth, so I think, JRRT seemed either to have changed his mind somewhat on the subject, or felt that the Athrabeth was somehow not too intrusive.

To my mind, when I read the Athrabeth, I felt the Legendarium had finally received it's 'crowning gem' so to speak, but of course, I am a Christian, so that is hardly an un-biased opinion.

He may have come to see the need to tie his M-E theology more closely to the RW, just as
he wished to tie the science more closely and jettison [or ascribe it to the ignorance of Man] the idea of there being a Flat -Earth before the Fall of Numenor.

I will try and remember to update this thread if I come across anything more definitve.