I think I know why Lobelia S.B. is called Lobelia - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Frodo Baggins · 08-23-2002, 11:47 AM

JRRT had a habit (hobbit?) of playing on words for his characters. Baggins has something to do with moneybags for instance.
Anyway, while the Lobelia flower is pretty (Mrs. S.B. is not!) it is poisonus. If you hold it in your mouth (I read this, I did not try it) it is verry bitter and causes headaches and perspiration, longer causes dizziness and disorientation, finally if you haven't spit it out by this time it causes severe nausea and extreme vomiting. Funny, if I am around Lobelia S.B. for a long enough time the same thing happened. Remember after Bilbo left and Merry said I was indisposed? Three guesses why and the first two don't count!

Lothiriel Silmarien · 08-23-2002, 11:57 AM

That's very interesting!

08-23-2002, 12:02 PM

Tolkien got The "Hobbit" from where he lived. He lived in Hobb Lane in England.
Just thought i'd tell you.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Lady_Elf ]

Starbreeze · 08-23-2002, 02:56 PM

That really is interesting. I thought it was just that she was named after a flower (which to my mind flowers in general are nothing special). Thatnks for enlightening me!

Morquesse · 08-23-2002, 04:18 PM

That is very interesting and Frodo Baggins! You are back! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] *picks up the hobbit and dances around* I'm so glad you're back!
Well, I am very glad I never decided to try lobelia to see what it tasted like. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
~M

Elsaur · 08-24-2002, 03:31 PM

i always thought that and i'm glad that other people have figured that out.it's very interesting the way tolkien made things up from real things. the hobb lane thing's pretty cool too. you're all very observative.

Eruwen · 08-25-2002, 02:51 PM

That is very interresting, Frodo. I was wondering how he came up with all of the names in his books. Hmmm...

Oh, and by the way, welcome back!! Where did you go for so long? I havn't seen you on much lately. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Merry Brandybuck · 09-01-2002, 08:59 AM

Indeed, you were very indisposed, my dear Frodo. And who can blame you? Interesting, that our dear Miss Lobelia should have been named after a noxious flower. Good judgement, on her parents part, I'd say.

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Merry Brandybuck ]

Rose Cotton · 09-01-2002, 10:15 AM

Funny, I didn't know there was an art to picking hobbit names. Since most of them seem to be made up. Though I do know somthing about how one of our good friends got his name. This is from one of Tolkien's biogrophys:

Quote:

Cotton balls, for example, were known as gamgee, which itself was short for gamgee-tissue. Why gamgee? A local man named Samson Gamgee had invented them.

Now there may be no conection at all but I do find that very suspitous. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Frodo Baggins · 09-01-2002, 06:14 PM

Good one Merry, yes indisposed. You always were one to get to the point. Her parents evident;y had more insight than we thought. I pity Otho for marrying her.

Evisse the Blue · 09-02-2002, 02:27 AM

Merry, I love your signature! It's hilarious! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Lady Elf, I heard Tolkien's idea for "Hobbit" came from a book (forgot the author) about a certain English family "Babbit" who resemble hobbits in that they are 'respectable', and easy going.
As for Lobelia, well, that does explain it all! And so what if the flowers are pretty, maybe Lobelia was too, before she turned into a mean old hag [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Lotrelf · 03-27-2014, 06:37 AM

Exactly! Once, in the Dictionary, I saw the word Lobelia and knew already it was flower's name. But from there, I found it was poisonous(in the ways you explained, obviously) too. I realized this is why Professor named her Lobelia.

Mithalwen · 03-27-2014, 10:22 AM

I very much doubt this. Lobelia is a very popular garden plant in England. If Tolkien had been worried about the toxicity of plants as an indicator of character he wouldn't have called his hero's remarkable mothet after the truly lethal Belladonna aka deadly nightshade. A more likely link would be to the Victorian language of flowers in which Lobelia represents malevolence.

Inziladun · 03-29-2014, 05:04 PM

It's funny that the Bree Hobbits and Men are noted as having "odd" botanical names. Yet, in addition to Lobelia, a glimpse of the Baggins family tree shows Pansy, Lily, Rosa, Poppy, and Peony among the various female names there. Lobelia apparently just had traditionally-minded parents, if that carried through to Shire-families in general.

Mithalwen · 03-29-2014, 06:50 PM

I think the botanical Breenames were surnames like Butterbur and Goatleaf. Frodo remarked on how common flower names are for Shire women.

Inziladun · 03-29-2014, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think the botanical Breenames were surnames like Butterbur and Goatleaf. Frodo remarked on how common flower names are for Shire women.

Pffft. You're right, naturally. Next I'll be advancing the theory that Sam is rustic and simple.

shadowfax · 09-02-2014, 07:35 AM

I think Tom Shippey convincingly formulates the theory that Sackville Baggins is a wordplay on cul-de-sac and his general disapproval of using French words to describe things for which there are decent Engish words. Of course cul-de-sac is not even proper French but an anglicised usage of French to appear eduacted or intellectual.

Bag End is thus a literal English translation of cul de sac (bottom of a bag). Ville (before it came to mean town) came from possibly celtic origins denoting a settlement and thus could also loosely mean the same as end does in English place names. Thus sackville is bag end and the name Sackville Baggins is thus a meaningless repetition of the same thing.

Baggins is of course also another wordplay, as Bilbo (or so Gandalf claims) is a burglar (actually a misinterpretation of the term burgher, for a bourgeouis citizen) and a burglar is obviously somebody who steals, or "bags" things. Of couzrse he did end up bagging both the Ring and the arkenstone, and as such proved a good "bagger".

Colloquially, at least to an Oxford don in Tolkien's day, a baggins was also a light meal. And Bilbo was certainly one who liked to tuck into his meals.

Of course Hobb Lane also comes into it. Tolkien obviosuly didn't mind combining several jokes and references into one.

08-23-2002, 11:47 AM	#1
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	I think I know why Lobelia S.B. is called Lobelia JRRT had a habit (hobbit?) of playing on words for his characters. Baggins has something to do with moneybags for instance. Anyway, while the Lobelia flower is pretty (Mrs. S.B. is not!) it is poisonus. If you hold it in your mouth (I read this, I did not try it) it is verry bitter and causes headaches and perspiration, longer causes dizziness and disorientation, finally if you haven't spit it out by this time it causes severe nausea and extreme vomiting. Funny, if I am around Lobelia S.B. for a long enough time the same thing happened. Remember after Bilbo left and Merry said I was indisposed? Three guesses why and the first two don't count! __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

08-23-2002, 11:57 AM	#2
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	That's very interesting! __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

08-23-2002, 02:56 PM	#4
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	That really is interesting. I thought it was just that she was named after a flower (which to my mind flowers in general are nothing special). Thatnks for enlightening me! __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

08-23-2002, 04:18 PM	#5
Morquesse Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Past the fields we know.... Posts: 202	That is very interesting and Frodo Baggins! You are back! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] picks up the hobbit and dances around I'm so glad you're back! Well, I am very glad I never decided to try lobelia to see what it tasted like. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ~M __________________ I'm not ashamed to let you know I want this light in me to show. I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.~Newsboys

08-24-2002, 03:31 PM	#6
Elsaur Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: ????????????/ Posts: 17	i always thought that and i'm glad that other people have figured that out.it's very interesting the way tolkien made things up from real things. the hobb lane thing's pretty cool too. you're all very observative. __________________ i can't take his money, i can't print my own money, i have to work for money.why don't i just die?

08-23-2002, 12:02 PM	#3
Lady_Elf Guest Posts: n/a	Tolkien got The "Hobbit" from where he lived. He lived in Hobb Lane in England. Just thought i'd tell you. [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Lady_Elf ]

08-25-2002, 02:51 PM	#7
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	That is very interresting, Frodo. I was wondering how he came up with all of the names in his books. Hmmm... Oh, and by the way, welcome back!! Where did you go for so long? I havn't seen you on much lately. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-01-2002, 08:59 AM	#8
Merry Brandybuck Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Buckland, The Shire Posts: 31	Indeed, you were very indisposed, my dear Frodo. And who can blame you? Interesting, that our dear Miss Lobelia should have been named after a noxious flower. Good judgement, on her parents part, I'd say. [ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Merry Brandybuck ] __________________ Legolas: Crebain from Dunland! The rest of the Fellowship: Whatty from whatland?

09-01-2002, 06:14 PM	#10
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Good one Merry, yes indisposed. You always were one to get to the point. Her parents evident;y had more insight than we thought. I pity Otho for marrying her. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

09-02-2002, 02:27 AM	#11
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Merry, I love your signature! It's hilarious! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Lady Elf, I heard Tolkien's idea for "Hobbit" came from a book (forgot the author) about a certain English family "Babbit" who resemble hobbits in that they are 'respectable', and easy going. As for Lobelia, well, that does explain it all! And so what if the flowers are pretty, maybe Lobelia was too, before she turned into a mean old hag [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

03-27-2014, 06:37 AM	#12
Lotrelf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 265	Exactly! Once, in the Dictionary, I saw the word Lobelia and knew already it was flower's name. But from there, I found it was poisonous(in the ways you explained, obviously) too. I realized this is why Professor named her Lobelia. __________________ A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles

03-27-2014, 10:22 AM	#13
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I very much doubt this. Lobelia is a very popular garden plant in England. If Tolkien had been worried about the toxicity of plants as an indicator of character he wouldn't have called his hero's remarkable mothet after the truly lethal Belladonna aka deadly nightshade. A more likely link would be to the Victorian language of flowers in which Lobelia represents malevolence. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-29-2014, 05:04 PM	#14
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	It's funny that the Bree Hobbits and Men are noted as having "odd" botanical names. Yet, in addition to Lobelia, a glimpse of the Baggins family tree shows Pansy, Lily, Rosa, Poppy, and Peony among the various female names there. Lobelia apparently just had traditionally-minded parents, if that carried through to Shire-families in general. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

03-29-2014, 06:50 PM	#15
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I think the botanical Breenames were surnames like Butterbur and Goatleaf. Frodo remarked on how common flower names are for Shire women. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-02-2014, 07:35 AM	#17
shadowfax Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 40	I think Tom Shippey convincingly formulates the theory that Sackville Baggins is a wordplay on cul-de-sac and his general disapproval of using French words to describe things for which there are decent Engish words. Of course cul-de-sac is not even proper French but an anglicised usage of French to appear eduacted or intellectual. Bag End is thus a literal English translation of cul de sac (bottom of a bag). Ville (before it came to mean town) came from possibly celtic origins denoting a settlement and thus could also loosely mean the same as end does in English place names. Thus sackville is bag end and the name Sackville Baggins is thus a meaningless repetition of the same thing. Baggins is of course also another wordplay, as Bilbo (or so Gandalf claims) is a burglar (actually a misinterpretation of the term burgher, for a bourgeouis citizen) and a burglar is obviously somebody who steals, or "bags" things. Of couzrse he did end up bagging both the Ring and the arkenstone, and as such proved a good "bagger". Colloquially, at least to an Oxford don in Tolkien's day, a baggins was also a light meal. And Bilbo was certainly one who liked to tuck into his meals. Of course Hobb Lane also comes into it. Tolkien obviosuly didn't mind combining several jokes and references into one. __________________ Visit the Walking Tree Publishers Last edited by shadowfax; 09-02-2014 at 07:39 AM.