Should she glow?

[Lalaith]

So, Tauriel´s glow of healing...did it make any sense?

I´m assuming that the idea for the glow came from this:

for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.”

But Tauriel was just a lowly Silvan elf. She She´d not been to the Blessed Realm - she may even have been Avari. Did she have any kind of right to glow?

[alatar]

Just saw DoS - more elsewhere. Could it be that 'the glow' was just from Kili's point of view, as he was far down the black Morgul road looking back with eyes of love and she was his savior - and pretty attractive as well?

[cellurdur]

Short answer is no.

Long answer is an orc should not have had a morgul arrow and Tauriel should not have been able to heal such a wound.

[Galadriel55]

Real answer: does TauriElle even exist?

(I haven't watched the movie so I can't give any actual ideas on the matter)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

So, Tauriel´s glow of healing...did it make any sense?

I'm assuming that the idea for the glow came from this:

Nice to see you, Lal! Your assumption is faulty, I'm afraid, as it's difficult to imagine PJ actually reading the books.

[Lalaith]

Hmm.. does the idea of Tauriel´s glow being purely in the mind of Kili, make things worse, or better...?

From a canonical point of view, I think Tauriel could have healed Kili. I just don´t think she would have glowed while doing it.

Nice to see you too Inzil *waves*

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Hmm.. does the idea of Tauriel´s glow being purely in the mind of Kili, make things worse, or better...?

From a canonical point of view, I think Tauriel could have healed Kili. I just don´t think she would have glowed while doing it.

Nice to see you too Inzil *waves*

Tauriel was a Silvan elf. Glorfindel probably the most powerful elf alive could not heal Frodo. She should not even have had more ability than Aragorn.

[Lalaith]

Ah, a nice nerdy discussion about healing, just what I was hoping for!

That's a very good point about Glorfindel.
But I suppose it could depend on whether a fragment of the blade was in the wound. In Frodo´s case, not only was there a fragment but it had been there for two weeks, working its way close to his heart.
Kili´s wound was only a couple of days old. Maybe even a Silvan elf could heal Morgul wounds if caught early.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Ah, a nice nerdy discussion about healing, just what I was hoping for!

That's a very good point about Glorfindel.
But I suppose it could depend on whether a fragment of the blade was in the wound. In Frodo´s case, not only was there a fragment but it had been there for two weeks, working its way close to his heart.
Kili´s wound was only a couple of days old. Maybe even a Silvan elf could heal Morgul wounds if caught early.

Perhaps, but I don't think an orc should have had such a weapon anyway.

Off topic, but I did not mind Tauriel's character. The only thing that annoyed me was the romance with Kili. The two are not even the same species.

[alatar]

Has anyone studied the effect of a "Morgul" arrow being used by a non-wraith?

Our studies, though not totally comprehensive, suggest that most of the "Morgul" weapons, with the exception of those used by one of the Nine, are in fact cheap knock offs made in Khand. They are simply over-priced standard issue poisoned weapons with great infomercials.

So any elf could heal the wound caused by such a weapon.

And note that when Arwen glowed, she wasn't healing Frodo, but just approaching him when he was in a very sickened state. Possibly just delirium.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by alatar

Has anyone studied the effect of a "Morgul" arrow being used by a non-wraith?

Our studies, though not totally comprehensive, suggest that most of the "Morgul" weapons, with the exception of those used by one of the Nine, are in fact cheap knock offs made in Khand. They are simply over-priced standard issue poisoned weapons with great infomercials.

So any elf could heal the wound caused by such a weapon.

And note that when Arwen glowed, she wasn't healing Frodo, but just approaching him when he was in a very sickened state. Possibly just delirium.

Alatar hast hit it. A splintering Morgul blade in the hand of Angmar is an epically bad weapon. Ringwraiths bring Black Breath. Morgul blades, I would imagine, channel that black breath like copper channels electrons. (If my Physics professors are reading this, this isn't me.)

Arrows are not swords. Orcs are not ringwraiths. So the healer didn't have to be varsity. She was healing poison, not black breath. I had no problem with that.

As far as the glowing... even in the woods of the Shire, the Wood elves glowed on the way to the Grey Havens. They weren't Glorfindel either (and if they were supposed to represent Gildor, well, they didn't...)

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Kili´s wound was only a couple of days old. Maybe even a Silvan elf could heal Morgul wounds if caught early.

I think it's more a matter of Elrond and Aragorn actually being finely trained in the art of healing that makes a difference - not the fact that neither are Silvan elves. To think that all elves have access to that kind of education is kind of weird. Then again, as a lieutenant, or whatever Tauriel is, I assume she has some basic first-aid training. Not sure if that includes healing with athelas, though.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Then again, as a lieutenant, or whatever Tauriel is, I assume she has some basic first-aid training. Not sure if that includes healing with athelas, though.

In the FOTR book, Aragorn says of athelas that it "grows now sparsely and only near places where [Men of the West] dwelt or camped of old; and it is not known in the North, except to some of those who wander in the Wild".
I doubt Tauriel, or any of the Mirkwood Elves, ever came in contact with athelas. Sounds like more PJ finagling to provide filmgoers who haven't read the books with more "continuity" linking the new films with LOTR.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the FOTR book, Aragorn says of athelas that it "grows now sparsely and only near places where [Men of the West] dwelt or camped of old; and it is not known in the North, except to some of those who wander in the Wild".
I doubt Tauriel, or any of the Mirkwood Elves, ever came in contact with athelas. Sounds like more PJ finagling to provide filmgoers who haven't read the books with more "continuity" linking the new films with LOTR.

Thanks for the reference!

I think the "continuity" served to make the films rather trite, even if the effect was perhaps meant to offer familiarity. One of the main reasons I found TH such a weak film was the way it leaned so heavily on the LotR movies for support.

[Morthoron]

Of course Tauriel should glow. She is part of a planned Twilight crossover fan-fiction movie, where glowy elfesses and sparkly vampires battle for no other reason than because there will be enough cretins to waste money to watch it.

[Galadriel55]

I have watched the movie today. Didn't mean to; we were going to see a different one but it was sold out, so we stayed for The Hobbit, and now I can properly comment on this.

I don't mind her glowing. Whether it is Kili's delirium, a manifestation of her healing, or a good measure of skin care products, it's not the thing that worries me. I definitely agree that the whole morgul wound business is quite a fake. Seriously? It's not the Nazgul that have the "death power", quote unquote, but any itsy bitsy filthy orc? Ya right. That was a pretty random shot at a pretty random dwarf, just the same as any other arrow, and not more special than their swords, axes, and etc. Conclusion: they are all armed with morgul weapons. Absolutely. Very logical. And the kingsfoil business - once again, seriously? Firstly, how do the Dwarves think of using it? And, erm, doesn't it kind of defeat it's name and purpose: KINGsfoil? It's supposed to be used by Aragorn, what are they doing, having a Dwarf think of it and a sylvan Elf use it? Trash.

[Lalaith]

I don't know about kingsfoil being exclusively used by the kings of men, despite the name. "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" means that kings are good at healing, but it doesn't mean that only a king can heal. I'm sure that the use of kingsfoil originated with the elves, particularly given that it has a Quenyan name as well as a Sindarin one - asëa aranion. Back in the days of Beleriand, Huan and Luthien used athelas to heal Beren, after all.
But I agree that for Oin to have such in-depth knowledge of it is bizarre.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I don't know about kingsfoil being exclusively used by the kings of men, despite the name. "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" means that kings are good at healing, but it doesn't mean that only a king can heal. I'm sure that the use of kingsfoil originated with the elves, particularly given that it has a Quenyan name as well as a Sindarin one - asëa aranion. Back in the days of Beleriand, Huan and Luthien used athelas to heal Beren, after all.
But I agree that for Oin to have such in-depth knowledge of it is bizarre.

I don't mind it being used by Elves in general. I mind that it's known to Dwarves and that it enters the story in the wrong hands. It's Aragorn's to introduce, as forgotten lore. *goes to pout in the corner*

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And there's no reason at all for Tauriel, as a Nando, to glow at all; it's dubious that Arwen would, even to Frodo in his affected state. Neither one was an Elf of Aman.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

And there's no reason at all for Tauriel, as a Nando, to glow at all; it's dubious that Arwen would, even to Frodo in his affected state. Neither one was an Elf of Aman.

I wonder if that is a reflection of the Bakshi film. Regarding that, I've heard the depiction of the animated Elves as being "three F-stops too bright".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I don't know about kingsfoil being exclusively used by the kings of men, despite the name. "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" means that kings are good at healing, but it doesn't mean that only a king can heal. I'm sure that the use of kingsfoil originated with the elves, particularly given that it has a Quenyan name as well as a Sindarin one - asëa aranion. Back in the days of Beleriand, Huan and Luthien used athelas to heal Beren, after all.
But I agree that for Oin to have such in-depth knowledge of it is bizarre.

You're probably right. I was just connecting 'blood of Númenor' with athelas to cure Black Breath and other Morgul weapon-induced ills.

Many used it to clear the air or to cure headaches, and some think it pig fodder.

[Inziladun]

Kingsfoil probably would have gotten its name because it was used by the kings in healing, and they probably usually kept it on hand. The commoners would have had access to it as well, but any association with healing to those in Gondor (or Arnor) could naturally have also led to an association with the kings.

[mark12_30]

Just as a completely baseless aside, when I first read the trilogy in 1972 or so, I assumed from the description (hastily read) that aethelas was actually wintergreen. Wintergreen has numerous uses, I don't know of anyone who cultivates it, And any fool can make tea out of it or wash a wound with it.

Aragorn' s ministry to Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry was more about Osanwe than aethelas. He wrestled the forces of darkness for their souls, calling them back from desolate wandering and despair-- and won.

While the movie showed Gandalf doing that for Pippin, the movie didn't show Aragorn doing any of that; the movie showed Aragorn squeezing out a washcloth.

At least Tauriel broke a sweat and did some spiritual warfare.

To me this is more like having Treebeard quote Bombadil' s lines. At least it's a gesture toward what might have been.

[alatar]

Why the glow?

Science.

Peter Jackson is simply striving to make his films scientifically accurate.

These glowing elves are akin to the Moon, which shines no light of its own but merely reflects that of the Sun. More scientifically, photons emitted by the Sun bounce off (are not absorbed by) of the Moon and enter our eyes and excite electrons in our brains, and then we sit and write poetry.

Anyway, this insight dawned on me while reading FotR (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by Three is Company

They <Gildor's folk> bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet.

Originally Posted by Fog on the Barrow Downs

As he <Frodo> lay there, thinking and getting hold of himself, he noticed all at once that the darkness was slowly giving way: a pale greenish light was growing round him. It did not at first show him what kind of a place he was in, for the light seemed to be coming out of himself, and from the floor beside him, and had not yet reached the roof or wall.

Originally Posted by A Knife in the Dark

In one hand he <The Witch King> held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light.

So clearly the Nazgul emit some time of particle that becomes visible when 'bounced' off of an Elf or and Elf friend. Gildor's troop glow as they (possibly) tramp back up the same path traveled by one of the Nine. The Wights were visited by the Witch King, and his Nazgully presence left a trace that reacted with Elf friend Frodo. We observe this luminescence more intensely on Weathertop.

Morgul weapons retain this radiation, and Elves and Elf friends, by seemingly refusing receipt, repel it, and hence glow. Science.

[More experiments are presently being conducted at CERN].

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Kingsfoil probably would have gotten its name because it was used by the kings in healing, and they probably usually kept it on hand. The commoners would have had access to it as well, but any association with healing to those in Gondor (or Arnor) could naturally have also led to an association with the kings.

Just as a trivial aside, "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer" has a long historical basis in both England and France. Anointed kings and queens would lay their hands on long lines of commoners in a yearly ceremony (usually at Easter). Kings like Louis IX (St. Louis) and Louis XIV, and queens like Elizabeth I and Anne, were notable monarchs who patiently applied their "God-given" gift to up to 1600 peasants and villeins at a sitting. They had an alleged ability to cure scrofula (a form of tuberculosis), a dread disease that became known as "Kings-evil".

There are no statistics on how many people were cured, but given the deplorable state of medicine in the Middle Ages and early modern times, the laying of hands was probably more efficacious than mercury-laced medicines and blood letting. At least one didn't die of the cure.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There are no statistics on how many people were cured, but given the deplorable state of medicine in the Middle Ages and early modern times, the laying of hands was probably more efficacious than mercury-laced medicines and blood letting. At least one didn't die of the cure.

Well, blood-letting was even advocated as late as the early 20th Century for treating the 1918 flu pandemic, though that may have been as much out of desperation as of honest belief in efficacy.

As for the laying on of hands, there was probably a psychological aspect as well involved as far as the King was concerned, as having the King (as a semi-divine entity) actually touch one could feed the will to live. True healing power was obviously possessed by the kings though, at least demonstrably in Aragorn's case with his healing of unconscious persons.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't mind it being used by Elves in general. I mind that it's known to Dwarves and that it enters the story in the wrong hands. It's Aragorn's to introduce, as forgotten lore. *goes to pout in the corner*

Likewise. Well, that and the whole "Morgul Arrow" thing.

Tauriel's clearly a Tatyarin Avar anyway, so she shouldn't glow, but then neither should Arwen in the LotR movies - the whole glowing thing was just Glorfindel putting forth his power to begin with, but in the movies it seems a valid artistic license. On the other hand, the use of Athelas and the Morgul Arrow are just messing with the Lore for no good reason.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Just as a trivial aside, "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer" has a long historical basis in both England and France. Anointed kings and queens would lay their hands on long lines of commoners in a yearly ceremony (usually at Easter). Kings like Louis IX (St. Louis) and Louis XIV, and queens like Elizabeth I and Anne, were notable monarchs who patiently applied their "God-given" gift to up to 1600 peasants and villeins at a sitting. They had an alleged ability to cure scrofula (a form of tuberculosis), a dread disease that became known as "Kings-evil".

The last monarch to do this in the English speaking world was Queen Anne (r. 1702-14), the last time she did so being on 30th March 1712. One of the last people she touched was the writer Samuel Johnson (1709–84), who remembered something of what took place:

This year, in Lent —12, I was taken to London, to be touched for the evil by Queen Anne. My mother was at Nicholson's, the famous bookseller, in Little Britain. My mother, then with child, concealed her pregnancy, that she might not be hindered from the journey. I always retained some memory of this journey, though I was then but thirty months old. I remembered a little dark room behind the kitchen, where the jack-weight fell through a hole in the floor, into which I once slipped my leg. I seem to remember, that I played with a string and a bell, which my cousin Isaac Johnson gave me; and that there was a cat with a white collar, and a dog, called Chops, that leaped over a stick: but I know not whether I remember the thing, or the talk of it.

I remember a boy crying at the palace when I went to be touched. Being asked "on which side of the shop was the counter?" I answered, "on the left from the entrance," many years after, and spoke, not by guess, but by memory. We went in the stage-coach, and returned in the waggon, as my mother said, because my cough was violent....We were troublesome to the passengers; but to suffer such inconveniences in the stage-coach was common in those days to persons in much higher rank. I was sick; one woman fondled me, the other was disgusted. (My emphasis)

The last monarch known to have touched his people in this way was King Charles X of France (r. 1824–30), at his coronation on 29th May 1825, when he touched 121 people.

[Lotrelf]

Is she a character in Tolkien's books or just another invention for PJ's work? I'm confused.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Is she a character in Tolkien's books or just another invention for PJ's work? I'm confused.

The Tauriel character does not appear in the books, and is completely of the imagination of the filmmakers. If only she'd remained there.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There's no room in Tolkien's world - call him "misogynist" if you like - for Warrior She-Elves (largely a very, very recent staple of RPGs, movies, comic books etc, plus ancient legend where, again, they were exceptional (Hippolyta, Atalanta) or divine (Athena, the Valkyries). Eowyn is a Thang precisely because she is completely unique and unexpected; as for female Elves, Tolkien merely says that "at need" they would fight to defend their children and homes. In this then they were not unlike the ancient Teutons, of whom Tacitus expressed as much surprise as his laconic style permitted; most enemy women, when the menfolk were defeated, simply accepted slavery meekly.

But the notion that a female would have been Captain of the Guard, or for that matter a member of the Guard or of any regular military body - was alien to Tolkien's imagination (and real-world experience).

(It's to be noted that in the real world right down to the present day, females were not found in ground-combat arms of the world's militaries until the last few years).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There's no room in Tolkien's world - call him "misogynist" if you like - for Warrior She-Elves (largely a very, very recent staple of RPGs, movies, comic books etc, plus ancient legend where, again, they were exceptional (Hippolyta, Atalanta) or divine (Athena, the Valkyries). Eowyn is a Thang precisely because she is completely unique and unexpected; as for female Elves, Tolkien merely says that "at need" they would fight to defend their children and homes.

I don't recall that note about female Elves fighting, though a similar observation was made in UT about the Wainriders who had taken over the homes of the Northmen.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

But the notion that a female would have been Captain of the Guard, or for that matter a member of the Guard or of any regular military body - was alien to Tolkien's imagination (and real-world experience).

(It's to be noted that in the real world right down to the present day, females were not found in ground-combat arms of the world's militaries until the last few years).

Not to turn this into any sort of socio-political debate, but the lack of female combat involvement in Tolkien's time and into recent years stemmed from a physical source, in addition to any sense of culture or tradition.
Having served some time in the military, I can speak to the fact that being a soldier is physically demanding. It requires not only a level of cardiovascular fitness (at which women actually can and do better men many times), but also a high degree of strength, especially upper body. Though today's weapons are much lighter in weight than in the past, it still needs physical power to carry and shoot combat arms such as shotguns, rifles, and machine guns. In earlier eras the strength required was much greater: wielding longswords and winding crossbows was many times limited even among men to the strongest. The idea of a slender Elf-woman having a position in Tolkien's Middle-earth that required melee fighting as an occupation is utter rubbish.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There's no room in Tolkien's world - call him "misogynist" if you like - for Warrior She-Elves (largely a very, very recent staple of RPGs, movies, comic books etc, plus ancient legend where, again, they were exceptional (Hippolyta, Atalanta) or divine (Athena, the Valkyries). Eowyn is a Thang precisely because she is completely unique and unexpected; as for female Elves, Tolkien merely says that "at need" they would fight to defend their children and homes. In this then they were not unlike the ancient Teutons, of whom Tacitus expressed as much surprise as his laconic style permitted; most enemy women, when the menfolk were defeated, simply accepted slavery meekly.

Well said! There is also the story of Haleth who is another exceptional case. Such cases existed, and these women are held in high esteem, but they were exceptions. A female elf doesn't casually become the Captain of the Guard or whatever TauriElle's position was.

[FerniesApple]

That freaking glow It looked like somebody had opened the fridge door behind her. and whats with the nut pillow?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't recall that note about female Elves fighting, though a similar observation was made in UT about the Wainriders who had taken over the homes of the Northmen.

The description comes from Laws And Customs Among The Eldar [Moroth's Ring]. When speaking generally about Elvish customs, the author notes that they could vary according to time, place, or Elvish clan, but then the text goes into a specific for instance...

'There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.'

... and when the essay gets specific about fighting and healing, the nissi [Elven women]...

'Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.'

... and exceptions with respect to Elven-men and hearling are noted...

'On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.'

So it appears to remain that Elven-women fought under the already described scenario, and not outside it [again, even though in a more general context, customs could vary for certain reasons] -- within which scenario [in my opinion] might fall Idril arming herself [if this was to remain a detail in any updated Fall of Gondolin, that is], and possibly Galadriel's heroic defense of the Teleri [if in fact this was part of Galadriel's 'true' history].

Some ifs there.

[alatar]

The question might be, "Did she glow?"

Watching the scene again, clearly Tauriel glows. Interlaced with her glowing is Kili looking at her while in a manic/delirious state. After all of the glowage, one of the dwarves remarked that they'd just witnessed some remarkable Elven healing, but this statement does not indicate that the elf glowed.

Absent from the scene where shots of the other people in the room, staring at Tauriel while she healed Kili.

Methinks that the glow way in the eye of the beholder, love sick dwarf that he was.