Arnorian successor states? 3 or more

[Dúgorin]

Reading The Peoples of Middle-Earth (History of M-E vol. 12). The Heirs of Elendil. Regarding the break-up of Arnor the text refers to Cardolan and Rhudaur as "The chief of these lesser realms..." this would seem to imply that Arnor broke into more than three realms, is this supported anywhere else?

Is there any reference to whether these possible other realms were ruled by descendants of Isildur?

If there were other breakaway realms, where would they be situated? Arnor & the successor realm's borders would seem to suggest there wasn't much room for other realms.

[jallanite]

It seems to me that the text is referring to Cardolan and Rhudaur as “lesser realms” only in comparison to Arthedain, which is the largest kingdom descended from the territory earlier called Arnor.

I short I see here only the three kingdoms mentioned elsewhere by Tolkien: Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur.

[Dúgorin]

Originally Posted by jallanite

It seems to me that the text is referring to Cardolan and Rhudaur as “lesser realms” only in comparison to Arthedain, which is the largest kingdom descended from the territory earlier called Arnor.

Yes, that's what I gathered, that they were "lesser" than Arthedain, but "CHIEF of these lesser realms" would imply that Cardolan & Rhudaur were the greatest of multiple other successor realms

[Belegorn]

After Eärendur passed away Arnor broke into 3 kingdoms held by his sons. The eldest held sway in Arthedain and this line continued whereas the line of Amlaith's brothers perished.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

the line soon perished in Cardolan and Rhudaur.

By the time of Argeleb [1226-1356 T.A.] there were no other descendants of Isildur in the other two kingdoms. It was due to this that they started reclaiming lordship of Arnor and this accounts for the Ar- prefix in their names since then.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor... since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms

There were still Dúnedain in those other kingdoms even when the other descendants of Isildur perished. They did perish in Cardolan in 1636 after the Great Plague hit them.

To your question, it would seem there were no other lesser kingdoms. When lesser kingdoms is mentioned in the text I think it refers to the 3 lesser kingdoms that formed after Arnor broke apart, "The sons of the king established smaller independent kingdoms." [Heirs of Elendil; The Northern line of Arnor: the Isildurioni] They were lesser kingdoms all than Arnor. Chief of those lesser kingdoms [Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur] were "Cardolan south of the Great Road and east of the Baranduin; and Rhudaur north of the Great Road between the Weather Hills and the Bruinen."

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Here's a bit more of the text to which Dúgorin is referring to, I think. On my copy, it's on page 193, within "The Northern Line of Arnor: the Isildurioni [!], and underneath the entry for the 10th King of Arnor, Earendur (The bracketed material is in the presented text, representing a strike-through that Tolkien made himself.):

After Earendur the Northern Kingdom of Arnor was broken up. The sons of the king established smaller independent kingdoms. The direct line of the eldest son ruled the realm of Arthedain in the North-west; their city was Fornost. Annuminas became deserted owing to the dwindling of the people. The chief of the lesser realms were [Cardolan east of the Baranduin; and Rhudaur north of the Bruinen. Arthedain still claimed the overlordship, but this was disputed. >] Cardolan south of the Great Road and east of the Baranduin; and Rhudaur north of the Great Road between the Weather Hills and the Bruinen.

I agree the wording doesn't make sense given that there's no other hint of successor-states to Arnor besides Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. But more to the point, Arthedain is everywhere else presented, if not as the chief of the three, than certainly not the underling of Cardolan and Rhudaur!

Personally, given that the writing is a little disjointed anyway, I'd guess it's either a mistake by JRRT, or a corruption in the text we've been given by CT, or by his editors. Or possibly it was a passing thought by Tolkien that was dismissed or forgotten. But I'd lay a nickel on it being a mistake.

* * *

As an aside, I can't help but be reminded of Tolkien's line in Unfinished Tales, "The Istari":

"Of this Order, the number is unknown, but of those that came to the North of Middle-Earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar who abode there), the chiefs were five."

[Belegorn]

Good point about the Istari Ixnay. I think that the kingdoms of the two younger brothers [of Cardolan, and Rhudaur] are pointed out as the greater of the lesser realms [those being Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur] as Gondor [line of Anárion] was greater than Arnor even though Arnor [line of Isildur] was the state of the elder line. Arthedain [line of Amlaith] was the kingdom of the elder line as well, but the younger lines appeared to have the greater power, though probably not so great as Gondor to Arnor.

It is clear that aside from the House of the Kings, there were other princes [like in Gondor]. After the line of Kings died out in the kingdoms of the younger brothers, in Cordolan there was still a prince until 1409 which is at least 53 years after the last kings there perished.

Take a look at the map and the borders of the three kingdoms in Eriador. Could some smaller realm exist there where Arnor used to be along with those 3 kingdoms? Would they have branched out into territory previously not held by the lords of Arnor?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Good point about the Istari Ixnay. I think that the kingdoms of the two younger brothers [of Cardolan, and Rhudaur] are pointed out as the greater of the lesser realms [those being Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur] as Gondor [line of Anárion] was greater than Arnor even though Arnor [line of Isildur] was the state of the elder line. Arthedain [line of Amlaith] was the kingdom of the elder line as well, but the younger lines appeared to have the greater power, though probably not so great as Gondor to Arnor.

That is an interesting take on it because I had always been under the impression that Cardolan and Rhudaur were weaker than Arthedain.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That is an interesting take on it because I had always been under the impression that Cardolan and Rhudaur were weaker than Arthedain.

That supposition would seem to be borne out by the fact that they ended before Arthedain.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That supposition would seem to be borne out by the fact that they ended before Arthedain.

Maybe. I certainly feel Arthedain was at least stronger than Rhudaur, and -at least- equal to Cardolan, but I haven't been able yet to find a definitive textual support for that feeling. There is though this later note in "The Heirs of Elendil" from two versions of a page in an earlier manuscript than the one I excerpted (Page 209, under "Argeleb I" a king of Arthedain.):

'Slain in battle 1356. Angmar is repulsed but turns upon the lesser kingdoms.' [The replacement page has:] 'Slain in battle with subkingdoms of Cardolan and Rhudaur'.

Bracketed insertion is CT.

[Belegorn]

In Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age it is said of Arnor after the passing of Elendil that "of the Númenóreans and of the Men of Eriador there remained now too few to people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built". This may be useful for your question of the possibility of more than three kingdoms. The kingdoms were taken out one by one, as they diminished due to infighting and of course war with Angmar. I do not know if Arthedain was the greatest of these three realms, but its royal line was maintained where it faded away in the other two, as well as the line of princes in the other kingdoms. The other two kingdoms did fade in their strength faster than Arthedain which is why it was pointed out that Argeleb l was slain in battle with the subkingdoms. During his time the royal line was not existent in the other two kingdoms anymore and perhaps those two kingdoms did take a hit with their passing.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

'Slain in battle with subkingdoms of Cardolan and Rhudaur'.

I think the telling comment is their reference as "subkingdoms."

[Belegorn]

It seems to me in the beginning, when they had the separation, that Cardolan and Rhudaur were considered the greater of the fragmented kingdom.

Originally Posted by Heirs of Elendil; The Northern line of Arnor: the Isildurioni

The chief of the lesser realms were Cardolan south of the Great Road and east of the Baranduin; and Rhudaur north of the Great Road between the Weather Hills and the Bruinen.

Also keep in mind, it appears that the kingdom of Arthedain had more friendship with the Elves than the other two, who like Gondor appear to have started to become estranged from them. For it is noted that the other two kingdoms are ravaged but Arthedain holds out with "aid from Lindon and Imladris".

Did they become subkingdoms to Arthedain after their kings perished, or were they subkingdoms from the beginning and does the statement, "The chief of the lesser realms were Cardolan south of the Great Road and east of the Baranduin; and Rhudaur north of the Great Road between the Weather Hills and the Bruinen." suggest that there were actually more than three kingdoms? If not more than three how else can it be read than my reading that these two were the chief of the three lesser realms. Or can we take it that there is a mistake on Tolkien's part in the writing itself?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That supposition would seem to be borne out by the fact that they ended before Arthedain.

Perhaps, but I think Arthedain had the comfort of allies [the Elves] to aid in its endurance. During WW2 there were two powers the Allies were worried about, Germany and Japan. They felt Germany was the predominating power and therefore sought to oust them first of all. I'm not necessarily saying that Cardolan and Rhudaur were stronger because they went out first. I'm suggesting the possiblility that their fall before Arthedain does not necessarily imply they were at first lesser states. It would appear that eventually they did become lesser states to Arthedain probably due to the diminishment of their kings and princes and eventually the failure of those noble lines. Also Arthedain had the friendship of Rivendell and especially of Círdan and Lindon.

How could the kingdom have divided? Was Eärendur's heir not really fit to be king that he let the realm be divided? In Gondor during the Kin-strife a cousin of the rightful king, Castamir, with the backing of other nobles was able to usurp power. Ten years later Eldacar got it back.

1437 Burning of Osgiliath and loss of the palantír. Eldacar flees to Rhovanian; his son Ornendil is murdered.

1447 Eldacar returns and drives out the usurper Castamir. Battle of the Crossings of Erui. Siege of Pelargir.

1448 Rebels escape and seize Umbar.

In the North, however, the authority of the king was also challenged, but in this case the lands were "divided into petty realms and lordships" [Sil; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age] It is said that Arthedain claimed the overlordship but it was disputed. So maybe the two younger brothers seceded rather than being given their own states?

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

Both Rhudaur and Cardolan desired to possess Amon Sûl (Weathertop)... for the Tower of Amon Sûl held the chief Palantír of the North

This palantír was mainly used to commune with Gondor. Did these other two brothers have some sort of relationship with Gondor or maybe they wanted their own palantír to keep an eye on the movements of Arthedain which held the Annúminas-stone?

In The Heirs of Elendil it's said, "The lesser realms resist the claim of the king at Fornost to be overlord of all the former lands of Arnor." This is during the reign of Malvegil when the royalty in the other two kingdoms was no more which may be why they have now been called "lesser realms". Also it is said that in Rhudaur "power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hillmen, who was in secret league with Angmar." This realm at least had not only lost its kings but was also under the sway of Angmar. Not quite the realm it once was, though it was petty before.

I think that Arthedain may have survived longer because not only did they receive held from the Men of Cardolan when Angmar tried to take Weathertop, they also still had friendship with the Elves who helped them.

Originally Posted by PoM-e, ch. 7, The Heirs of Elendil

the Dúnedain of Arthedain repel the forces of Angmar from Fornost with the help of Cirdan of Lindon.

Originally Posted by PoM-e, ch. 7, The Heirs of Elendil

Amlaith and his descendants maintained friendship with the Eldar, especially with Cirdan at the Havens.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from Círdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs.

Perhaps Angmar was finally able to sink its teeth into Rhudaur when its king died and was thus able to get men on the inside. This probably did not happen in Cardolan because they still had their princes until Angmar came out in force in 1409. Sometime in the late 1200s "evil came to Arnor", in what form I do not know. "There was often strife between the kingdoms" so I'm not sure in what guise this evil came. I do not think it was open war. Perhaps there were some skirmishes, and eventually the internal power grab in Rhudaur.

I do not know if Arthedain is ever pointed out to be the strongest of the three realms. Did the other two "lesser realms" fight together against Arthedain or were they all fighting each other for all those centuries? Maybe there was some teaming up here and there, most likely with Rhudaur and Cardolan, just as Cardolan joined forces with Arthedain against Rhudaur, although in this case it was more like a joint venture against Angmar since there were insiders in Rhudaur who eventually expelled the Dúnedain from those lands.

Just going through this stuff I'm probably going more along the lines of either the realms were near-equals although Arthedain had allies in the Elves, or the other two were "lesser realms" who teamed up. But why not just become one state? If they were not good with their older brother being king, were they also not good with each other being king?