Would Saruman have been a reliable ally?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

During the parley at Orthanc Gandalf offered Saruman a chance to rejoin the "good side" against Mordor. In fact Gandalf stated: "great service he could have rendered". But surely it would have been too risky to inform Saruman of Frodo's quest, even if Saruman appeared trustworthy?

[Andsigil]

Gandalf is among the most far-seeing and subtle thinkers in Middle Earth. I'm not sure how or what, but I think he would have found a way to get Saruman's help while relegating him to a position where he couldn't damage the cause.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Gandalf is among the most far-seeing and subtle thinkers in Middle Earth. I'm not sure how or what, but I think he would have found a way to get Saruman's help while relegating him to a position where he couldn't damage the cause.

Also, I think Gandalf was in a position to recognize true repentance, and would not have been deceived by falsity on Saruman's part. And as long as the Palantir of Orthanc was not available to Saruman, it's unclear how he would have been able to jeopardize the Quest in a meaningful way.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It is interesting to speculate what kind of "great sevice" Saruman
could have rendered. Perhaps helping to protect eastern Rohan so as
to release more forces for the ride to Minas Tirith, say 8,000 vs.
the 6,000 brought.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

It is interesting to speculate what kind of "great sevice" Saruman
could have rendered. Perhaps helping to protect eastern Rohan so as
to release more forces for the ride to Minas Tirith, say 8,000 vs.
the 6,000 brought.

Since Saruman knew so much of not only the Ring, but also of Sauron (through study of his works and mental communion via the Palantíri), I think he would have been of much help in devising military tactics for the West that would have been likely to divert his attention from Frodo and Sam.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since Saruman knew so much of not only the Ring, but also of Sauron (through study of his works and mental communion via the Palantíri), I think he would have been of much help in devising military tactics for the West that would have been likely to divert his attention from Frodo and Sam.

I agree that Saruman would be a powerful ally; but as has been pointed out, he would not be trusted by most by the time of the parley at Orthanc. Certainly the Rohirrim were angry at his attempts to subvert their king and his family, not to mention the loss of life and property. Why should they, to give an example, trust Saruman?

There's also the attitude of the Gondorians. Isengard was still Gondorian when Ruling Steward Beren gave him the keys of Orthanc. Later, Saruman declared his independence, renouncing any obligations towards Gondor. I don't see any of the Stewards, much less Denethor II, believing in any professed repentance, not just because of what he did to Gondor, but also, as I mentioned, what he did to Gondor's close ally Rohan.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

It is interesting to speculate what kind of "great sevice" Saruman
could have rendered. Perhaps helping to protect eastern Rohan so as
to release more forces for the ride to Minas Tirith, say 8,000 vs.
the 6,000 brought.

Theoden left no able-bodied Riders behind; he knowingly and willing left Edoras open to attack and destruction, which would in fact have happened but for the Ents' unforeseen appearance and their destruction of the Orc-army in the Wold.

[Lotrelf]

I think Gandalf would go according to the theory "Evil kills Evil"(not a proper quote really). Perhaps Saruman's Orc Army would be help??

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I think Gandalf would go according to the theory "Evil kills Evil"(not a proper quote really). Perhaps Saruman's Orc Army would be help??

But could you trust such an army? The problem is that we don't have any evidence of any orcs that aren't evil. For example, are there any good orcs, or at least some that want to live in peace, and won't bother other people as long as they themselves aren't bothered?

[Pervinca Took]

There are the smaller orcs in the forced march to Udun, who just want to get the march over and escape the whip. Whether they are not inherently cruel, or are simply at that point under the command of larger and certainly brutal orcs, isn't completely clear, though.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Theoden left no able-bodied Riders behind; he knowingly and willing left Edoras open to attack and destruction, which would in fact have happened but for the Ents' unforeseen appearance and their destruction of the Orc-army in the Wold.

Theoden did leave some forces in Rohan, partly because of the necessary speed to get to Minas Tirith, but also to keep some forces protecting Rohan.

'But we will speak no longer counsels of prudence. We will come. The weapontake wa set for the morrow. When all is ordered we will set out. Ten thousand spears I might have sent riding overthe plains to the dismay of your foes. It will be
less now, I fear; for I will not leave my strongholds all unguarded. Yet six thousands at the least shall ride behind me.'

[Mithalwen]

Tuor, I think WCH means when they rode to Helm's deep not to Minas Tirith

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

But could you trust such an army? The problem is that we don't have any evidence of any orcs that aren't evil. For example, are there any good orcs, or at least some that want to live in peace, and won't bother other people as long as they themselves aren't bothered?

When Gollum being evil could serve good, though, not willingly. couldn't Saruman be the same? His "voice" is said to be cruel(?) and poisonous(use of words is not clear, hope you got my point. ). Not saying, Gandalf had to "trust" the Orcs, but they, with Saruman's help, could turn them against the Army of Sauron. Aragorn looked into Palantir and that was enough for Sauron's world to turn upside down. Perhaps, knowing they are going to destroy the Ring, Saruman would have betrayed them, sending his Orc-battalion to fetch the hobbits. For his own salvation, i.e. FREEDOM from evil, he might have come to good. If, according to Gandalf, Gollum had chances(very little)of redemption and survival, Saruman would have too. But, sadly his fate was not to turn good and understand goodness of Good side, and evil of evil side. He died like that. What a tragedy!

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

When Gollum being evil could serve good, though, not willingly. couldn't Saruman be the same? His "voice" is said to be cruel(?) and poisonous(use of words is not clear, hope you got my point. ). Not saying, Gandalf had to "trust" the Orcs, but they, with Saruman's help, could turn them against the Army of Sauron. Aragorn looked into Palantir and that was enough for Sauron's world to turn upside down. Perhaps, knowing they are going to destroy the Ring, Saruman would have betrayed them, sending his Orc-battalion to fetch the hobbits. For his own salvation, i.e. FREEDOM from evil, he might have come to good. If, according to Gandalf, Gollum had chances(very little)of redemption and survival, Saruman would have too. But, sadly his fate was not to turn good and understand goodness of Good side, and evil of evil side. He died like that. What a tragedy!

I've thought it sad that he died the way he did, with his throat cut by his own servant; but I then think of all the evil he did.

As I said before, even if he was sincere, I don't think that Théoden and Denethor would take any chances with him, considering what he had done.

There's actually a very interesting fanfic, called 'Saruman of Many Devices', a crossover of the LotR Peter Jackson films with the General series of books by David Drake, where Saruman has knowledge of future technology, imparted by an AI:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7568728...f-many-Devices

It's an interesting story because we have Saruman using this new (19th century standard) military technology to fight Sauron and his minions. Gandalf, as well as the elves, dwarves and men opposed to Sauron, are suspicious of Saruman's ultimate motives, but feel they have to co-operate with him for the time being. Also, the story gives us a lot of sympathetic orcs, urks, and wolves...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Actually I did mean setting out for Minas Tirith. Theoden could leave footmen as well as the old and young to guard the two fastnesses of Dunharrow and the Hornburg, but Edoras was left open; as Treebeard says (later), but for the Ents Eomer would have had no Golden Hall to return to.

Of course, there were apparently some 4000 Riders (less casualties, which would have been appreciable by then) who didn't make it to the Muster in time; these however would have been mere supplements to the garrisons

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

During the parley at Orthanc Gandalf offered Saruman a chance to rejoin the "good side" against Mordor. In fact Gandalf stated: "great service he could have rendered". But surely it would have been too risky to inform Saruman of Frodo's quest, even if Saruman appeared trustworthy?

Dear Eru,

I reckon Saruman would have needed a GPS tracking bracelet to ensure Maia-supervision was adequate after he had the Palantir-detox period to stop the compulsions to get off with his scary new buddy, Sauron, 'on line' with 'just one more palantir chat'

Which is just another way of saying that once he crossed that line and started messing with men to make half orcs, he really was more like dear Morgoth, really, wasn't he.....slippery slide? Was in Tolkien's universe. I don't see many 'reformed' beings, and I don't see much in the way of 'shades of grey' or philosophising about the place of different races in a pantheon of living beings.

But perhaps Morgoth and Sauron were just 'misunderstood siblings' who mum and dad didn't quite rear right? Seriously--com on Eru! Pull your children into line a bit. I mean, it's not like Manwe and Mandos made 'only good decisions'. Truly, what did they think would come of binding Morgoth and locking him in chains FA, for Eru only knows how long because they thought that would 'fix' the problem. Yeah, I guess he would have been in a really good mood afterwards. And, did I see any of these discerning deep sighted god beings clueing up when they saw Morgoth rousing rebellion in Valinor. And oh of course, Feanor, the 'greatest' (tosser) ever born did a real good job of having a warm, subtle and humble personality. The Noldor might well have lived forever, but there was a horrible, no really prominent splash of narcissism in their vision of Arda, at times. Really? You entered Beleriand and displaced the Telerin stay-behinds, just 'because we could'.

OH MY God *scratches that out* I mean, Eru! Really? You Valar haven't got *any* other ideas about working with your colleague (scary and like an overgrown--actually--god-powered BRAT) Morgoth? Couldn't you have cordoned off the world, or made two or something, or sent the Orcs to Finishing School to learn better manners? They were living beings after all, and formerly Elves. Really? No-one gave a cahoot about them. At all. Except to imagine them as blots of nothingness?

Yours From the Twilight Zone

Iv

[tom the eldest]

Saruman would probably be a good ally.seeing his extensive knowldege of dark arts and sauron's trick would possibly help the west a lot.though for sauron's allies(easterling,variags,haradrim,etc)he is useless


Edit:and his persuasion voice could maybe influence the nazgul and give them false information about the west plan.even if the nazgul see isengard destruction,saruman could still wriggle his way out from the nazgul.