the elessar

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OKay, it sort of works-- and while we're speculatin' we could recall that one version of the Glorfindel story has him arriving in the 2d age, and a note raises the possibility of a Numenorean ship.... there was after all sea-traffic from Eressea to Numenor. So could not Olorin-in-disguise have hitched a ride? (The Elessar essay implies, I think, that until Gandalf/Olorin invoked Yavanna, Galadriel didn't know where he came from)

[Galin]

Good points WCH.

I think Tolkien only had a problem with Goldenlocks returning after Numenor fell, as that would put a seeming lot of emphasis on his return -- that is, if the Valar thought it so important that he should return after the removal of Aman [although in Glorfindel I Tolkien mused that Glorfindel returned as a companion to Gandalf].

The Istari were important enough of course. But in any case, before the removal of Aman one could take ship, and yes Olorin would not be in the physical guise of the old sage later called Mithrandir.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Perhaps Galadriel was reluctant to use Nenya because of uncertainty regarding the One. The Wise knew only that Isildur had been traveling to Rivendell with it, when he, and it, were lost. Although it had been around 1000 years, maybe she wanted some means of healing that did not involve any connection to the One Ring.

The idea of Olórin coming to Middle-earth before the Third Age just doesn't sit well with me. Like I said, the coming of the Istari was such a major event in Middle-earth history that it seems like a cheat of sorts for Gandalf to just pop over the Sea to hand over something to an Elf.

[Galin]

Appendix B notes:

The Third Age

These were the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One was lost; but they attempted nothing new (...) [something about Dwarves... something about Nmenoreans] (...)

... and next we learn that around 1,000 years [a notable amount of time] 'had passed' and the arrival of the Istari is described. And in step with this: 'Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

Come on now Tolkien doesn't have to spell it out explicitly with respect to Nerwen.

The Elves had, in my opinion, already wielded the Three in the Second Age, and even Christopher Tolkien rather simply notes that Galadriel would have to await the fall of Sorehead, in a comment about the possibility of her using Nenya after the Ring Ruse was discovered.

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

Well, at the end of the day this looks like a subject with some degree of ambiguity (shocking for Tolkien, I know). I'm going with the Celebrimbor option, cos' that's just the way I roll.

[Ivriniel]

okay I've hadda look at date stuff (which is headache material - it's so fiddly and akin to grating one's skin off with a cheese grater )

Tale of the Years

• Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750
  Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand
  Sauron departs the Ost-in-Edhil, 1500, after the Mirdain begin the making of the Rings of Power
  Sauron invades Eriador 1695, sacks the House of the Mirdain, seizes the Nine, tortures Celebrimbor (captured defending the House) to ascertain the location of the Rings of Power. It seems Celebrimbor divulged the location of the Seven [but maybe not, and possibly Durin the ? was gifted with one some time earlier)
  Tar Minastir, delayed 5 years, sends a great navy, just in nick of time, to assist Gil Galad, desperately holding Lhun, after Eriador sacked and run over.
  Vinaylonde of Tar-Aldarion after named Lond Daer, mouth of Gwathlo (Greyflood)
  Istari Arrive in Middle Earth around [B]1000 TA

Analysis

Olorin was not an Istari, NOT clad, irreversibly in the body of an aging 'man' (not Istari-fied) by the time of the debate we're having about UT and, the version of the Elessar where Galadriel and Olorin are munching on Lembas and Miruvor in Lorinand.

Lorinand, we think, was a realm that extended onto either side of the Anduin, and subsumed the location of the Dol Guldur as well as what came to be known as Laurelindorenan.

Annatar convinced the Mirdain to take control of the Ost-In-Edhil, around 1300 to 1400 SA, some thousand/s of years before the arrival of the Istari. It was around then, it seems, that Galadriel gathered the Nandorin and Silvan remnant who resided in those woods (Lorinand) and around the Gwathlo, and Amroth regions, where also was Edhellond, the other major Elven harbour. She, and other of her Noldor buddies Sindarised the Nandor/Silvans (who to this point had no written language and did not organise themselves into settlements/cities). Add here stuff about Dol Amroth, Elfy bloodlines, Imrahil, Ivriniel and Nimrodel. Amroth and all that.

[Ivriniel]

So....by this account (for version I of the deliberately dual text), Olorin was a pre-Istari visitor bearing a returned gift by the Grace of Yavanna. Galadriel was a jaded, cross, Elf, tossed out of the Ost-In-Edhil, by naughty Elfs, who spent too much time, hangin' out with Annatar the resident bad boi.

The Olorin-out-of-the-West is a theoretical possibility.

However, I found another reason to presuppose Version 1 is not the "one only the wise knew" (UT put it that way). UT notes that The Elessar made a region in Beleriand heal (like Vilya did) with Enerdhil's jewell, before it passed into the West. The Silmarillion then goes onto apply a Silmaril (i.e. not the Elessar) as the basis for this 'healing' before it left Beleriand.

Further, in Version II, we're told the second Elessar had less joo joo. The first Elessar could make a whole region grow Valinorish (ie. was Vilya-ish). The second Elessar, though "more subtle" and "clearer" than the first, could not imprison light from the sun when she was 'young'. Morgoth's influence from the Void.

I didn't see Aragorn's Elessar doin' very much joo joo and so, this places it more as the Celebrimbor/Feanorean jewel.

[Galin]

•Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750: Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus [if so] there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

'... many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the North of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the South of the forest.'

And while much later in the 1960s Tolkien would revise this, for all we know this was why Galadriel, in The Elessar, was living in Greenwood, not that she was imagined as being forced there by Celebrimbor as in CG&C.

There are passages of possible interest with respect to whether or not Tolkien revised the idea of Galadriel as being an ousted ruler in Eregion, considering too, that even Christopher Tolkien raised the question of why, if Galadriel saw through Annatar, she, as a co-ruler with Celeborn in this text, allowed Annatar to remain. These are published in Tolkien's Words, Phrases And Passages, in Parma Eldalamberon:

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

And when Tolkien revised The Return of the King, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, he 'merely' added that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion (with no reason to think he ruled after anyone), and a Feanorean.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.

[Ivriniel]

Hi there Galin, how r u?

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

Yes. But.

[Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death was the materials quarantining her from responsibility of Feanor's lead on the kinslaying, her and Celeborn (Teleporno) fighting valiantly with the Teleri (though Celeborn's lineage, elsewhere places him as a descendent of Elmo, bro to Elwe and Olwe, and this lineage links Dior, by marriage, to Elmo's brood, and so to Elwing, meaning Celebrian and Celeborn were related to Aragron (Elros) and also Arwen (Elrond). So, Gala and Celeb snatch a Telerin boat, and wander off to Middle Earth, roped in to the Ban thing, by implication, but arrived ahead of her "...unfriends forever..." Feanor (I had to say, I always chuckle when I re-read that stuff about Galadriel snubbing relative Feanor, and so the two were "unfriends forever".

Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus [if so] there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil but--the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states

Although it is not stated that Galadriel was present when Annatar arrived (1200), "He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her score with outward patience and courtesy" (p. 237) and Sauron "…worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) "So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) between 1350 and 1400 "Galadriel thereupon left eregion and passed through Khazad-dum to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian" (p. 237)

This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.

Bad boi Annatar comes in and stirs the pot around 1200 then

But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains (p. 236)

So, the founding of Laurelindorenan and all that appears to have happened some time after 1200 and before 1695 SA (Because it was Gil Galad that gives her Mallorn seeds, gifted to him from Numenor [The seeds wouldn't grow in Lindon], this also implies a second-age-ish concept for the founding of Lorien, after Lorinand). I note that materials about Amroth and Nimrodel place Amroth as ruler of Lorien until -- much later -- (I have a headache ) around 3434, SA! Man--that's like really off tap Tolkien--we are talking a discrepancy of about 1000 years!!!!

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn,

Yes

... but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

My point is more that Olorin-out-of-the-West, munching on Lembas and sipping Miruvor with Galadriel [a cross, Elf, booted out from the Ost-In-Edhil] in Lorinand appears to have occurred between 1200 and 1695 SA. Given the Istari rocked in 1000 TA, this implies the Olorin option as a pre-Istari visitor is theoretically possible. In that version, he comes chatting to Alatariel.

Did he bear the Elessar? (resuming focus on the two in-text, versions, deliberately divergent where "...only the wise..." (UT) know which is true.

A 'bottom line' synopsis with five points:

1. the joo joo argument. Elessar I was Nenya-ish, and greened an area in Beleriand on the coast, before passing West over sea.
2. But, Silmarillion replaces that with the effects of a Silmaril.
3. In any case, in story two, Celebrimbor (I think it's reasonably clear as he the Feanorean, not the jewel smith of Gondolin) makes a second. This jewel is 'clearer' and more 'subtle' but less powerful. Morgoth's influence on the Sun from the Void.
4. Aragorn's Elessar doesn't make Valinorish things happen in a region. It's power is limited. Thus
5. This makes Olorin's gift to Galadriel less likely.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.

Not sure I agree. Though, points 1 to 5 don't draw heavily on which way I go with this last bit.

[Ivriniel]

also......

The text bearing this title is a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed, which nonetheless is almost the sole narrative source for the events in the West of Middle-earth up to the defeat and expulsion of Sauron from Eriador in the year 1701 of the Second Age. Other than this there is little beyond the brief and infrequent entries in the Tale of Years, and the much more generalised and selective accounts in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (published in The Silmarillion) p. 234, UT

Which goes to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, UT.

Important, as it is latter text. Add in this:

The text is much emended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later. This is the case with those references to Amroth that make him the son of Galaddriel and Celeborn; but whenever these references were inserted, I think it is virtually certain that this was a new construction, later than the writing...p. 234

of the LotR.

That is, Tolkien appears to have added the Amroth thing and his sister as Celebrian, after LotR was published. I guess/believe he did so coz he was going to backflush Amroth and retrofit him in a new lineage and place in the histories....(honestly, I had to read this stuff about Galadriel, like 500,000 times. Not exaggerating - not I remember first encountering it all in 1980 and wanting to rip every hair off my head. By the time you get into V3 of Galadriel, the head starts to spin on the head, and the mouth starts vomiting tacks and goo (remember Linda Blair anyone?).

I'm glad I ploughed through. I have fixed a big mess in my head up......34 years later

The Amroth stuff is v. messy. Seems that by 1969 (earth time ), he's dumped as bro to Celebrian....Chris refers to The Battle of Dagorlad and Amdir as Amroth's dad.....*though*....the older Galadriel and Celeborn essay *was* modified, late. So, while Amroth/Amdir/Dagorlad/3rd millennium SA was written *later*, there were mods to the older script. Chris goes on to say (UT, p. 244) that he's not sure what was going to happen to Amroth, with implications for the bloodline to Galadriel and Celeborn.....possibly.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Yes. But.

[Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death (..)

Okay... but this very late text doesn't get into Eregion, so I guess you are making a general point with this example?

By the way, I said earlier in the thread: 'And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...'

... but there I did not recall correctly, as Galadriel committed Lorien to Amroth later in this text.

Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

It does post date The Lord of the Rings, but the text about Amroth and Nimrodel post-dates Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, at least as originally written. Hammond and Scull date CG&C to possibly the late 1950s.

On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.'

Okay, but the citation you are responding to from my post was about the ousting of Galadriel as co-ruler and co-founder of Eregion. This is rather about the matter of Celebrimbor being later revised to a Feanorean, which is actually part of my argument.

Or are you merely pointing to the fact that this text was revised at some later point?

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil...

For clarity, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn these characters are noted as founding and ruling Eregion. Christopher Tolkien explained that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in this context in Of The Rings of Power and in Appendix B, both earlier works that CG&C.

... but-- the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states (...) This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.

Well again that's from CG&C. It's later than The Lord of the Rings, but it is not a late essay. So yes, this is the text in which the idea appears.

So far we have arrived at the start

I am stating I think this 'ousting' is not necessarily a given, for various reasons, only one of which concerns the rejection of Amroth as Galadriel's son.

The Amroth stuff is v. messy. Seems that by 1969 (earth time ), he's dumped as bro to Celebrian....Chris refers to The Battle of Dagorlad and Amdir as Amroth's dad.....*though*....the older Galadriel and Celeborn essay *was* modified, late.

Still, we don't know when CG&C was modified with respect to Celebrimbor or Amroth. You assign 'late' to this modification, but the Amroth tale is very late: 1969 or later, and for example, Tolkien had already published, a few years before this for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean. Thus the idea of Celebrimbor as a Feanorean, at least, existed before the very late Amroth texts.

Not all that compelling I admit, but CJRT seems to state rather certainly [see below] that Amroth as Galadriel's son was 'later' rejected, which I at least take to represent his opinion then, or perhaps what he feels is most likely given the scenario.

So, while Amroth/Amdir/Dagorlad/3rd millennium SA was written *later*, there were mods to the older script. Chris goes on to say (UT, p. 244) that he's not sure what was going to happen to Amroth, with implications for the bloodline to Galadriel and Celeborn.....possibly.

I don't recall the statement you are referring to here, but in the quote I recall CJRT seems pretty definitive about Amroth as Galadriel's son being a rejected idea: '... but whether he was or not, this view of his parentage was later rejected.'

Anyway, Amroth as Galadriel's son is only one part of my argument, and that argument only goes so far as to say that the idea of Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion isn't necessarily a given...

... so if we agree on that much (emphasis on necessarily), and if we agree that Olorin could have visited in the Second Age...

[Ivriniel]

*high five*

That's all well enough for me. I respect your technical precision, well delivered in even tempered prose, with concessions at times, and a nice manner.

You're welcome to your final position. I could respond to your requests, but I'm not sure they would do anything but labour points well made from both perspectives.

One comment only--given TelePORNO (what an unfortunate name - I know it should probably be read Telep-orno [much nicer] but it's phonetically unfortunate - anyhooz, back to topic...I wonder, what it would have meant for the final position on Amroth, had Tolkien returned to edit the Amroth materials, and so on, given that Teleporno and Alatariel (a bit creepy - they're second cousins on Tol Eressea, grandchildren, both of Olwe, through different lines) were both Eldar who'd seen the light of the Trees?

We'll never know.

I also wonder, what on Earth Galadriel and Celeborn did for 1000 years, for those story variations placing Amroth son of Amdir, ruler until 3434 SA in Lorien/South Greenwood/Lorinand and *screams* Lindorinand in the Appendices! *scratches head* - I mean, dwelling in Imladris? Really? And I guess Galadriel just hung onto those Mallorn seeds Gil Galad gave her, gifted to him from Numenor, probably much earlier, I thought. Used Nenya? *screams again* There's contrary citations about that darned Ring stuff, and hints they didn't 'hide' them at all! I mean, from 1696 through to the end of SA, that's a freakin' lotta years to just hang on to them!

Also, there's one last citation in the Appendices of CG&C where it was not Amdir at all at Dagorlad, but some other dude, *screams* starting with 'M'...I can't be bothered dredging the citation. But, Chris reckoned it was just a simple swaperoo needed to chuck in Amdir and we're all sweet. Not sure about that, now, though I need to check the relative citations' ages. It's possible the 'M' dude was supposed to depose Amdir, so that Amroth could be Celebrian's bro.

Anyhooz, I really love the tale of Amroth, the love sick Sindar/Eldar, who hangs out with a Silvan/Nandor, and a rather cross one, quite sick of the Eldar and all their nonsense. Who jumps ship in the hugest-est-ever-est storm out of the north. His *golden* hair in the waves, long seen by far-sighted Elves on the boat....that we think made it to Valinor.

Did Nandor have golden hair? I'd have thought *silver* like the Teleri. This last item makes me....wonder.....just if that little, ole Amroth had his ma's golden tresses, a-la Finarfin, a-la Indis......

Just a thought

take care matey, thanx for all the materials - look forwards to ur company.

[Galin]

Actually Ivriniel [by edit] I fixed an argument of mine that was flawed, as, given CJRT's rather certain comment [to my mind] about Amroth as Nerwen's son being rejected, I had not remembered that the Amroth idea was also included in those sections that might have been revised 'later' [in other words, not just Celebrimbor].

Which you highlighted and I still didn't pay enough attention to, at first!

Still, I think it less likely that in the same general 'phase' [1968 or later] Tolkien decided that Amroth was the son of Amdir [Malgalad is the other name confusion you were thinking of], but then added him as the son of Galadriel to CG&C. If Hammond and Scull are correct, and CG&C was written in the later 1950s, that gives plenty of years for the Amroth and Celebrimbor revisions -- but anyway what seems compelling to me is that Tolkien 'never' seems to have worked much on this text, and never brought it beyond a rough state.


Of course, if I toss out notable chunks of CG&C, thinking them revised, as you say, what then was the history here? What did Galadriel do in Eregion, and after its fall? I have given my speculations about that somewhere at the Barrow Downs, along with the matter of the Mallorns and Lorien. At the moment I have no idea where they are however, and not that I assume you want to read them anyway.

Another thing I forgot to mention is what was published in RGEO [published in 1967 I think]: again it's far from conclusive in any case, but there Tolkien simply mentions that Galadriel and Celeborn passed over the Blue Mountains and went to Eregion...

... not Evendim, where Amroth was born in CG&C [but not Evendim due to brevity?], and not 'founded' Eregion [but again, is this missing due to brevity?]. But the latter 'detail' of actually founding and ruling the realm seems rather a notable one to leave out, especially with the [to my mind] easy implication of the revised Appendix B that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion.


And now I am being unfair, since I implied we should just agree and move on and then added more argument myself.

This then, is for me, not you Ivriniel:

And you may certainly respond if you wish of course, no matter what I imply and when.


If I can recall some of my speculated history in brief, I think it was a bit vague, and went something like this: Galadriel and Celeborn travel to Eregion -- Celebrimbor is Lord there, and he allows Annatar to play with the Mirdain -- I assume Galadriel objects -- Gil-galad has become a Finarfinian too [another complicated matter], and knew better than to allow Annatar into Lindon, so in this scenario Galadriel does not 'fail' as a ruler of Eregion by comparison, by at least allowing Annatar in her realm.

Then, after the Ring Ruse is discovered, Galadriel either departs to Lindon [with Nenya] before War breaks out [total speculation aside from the fact that she appears to be in Lindon later, acording to one note], or escapes with Celeborn to Lorien after Eregion is devasted [these are both based on notes in UT]. And well, I can't remeber at the moment what I have them doing until the Last Alliance, but as I say I posted it here somewhere...


By the way I'll have no Tel[e]porno of Aman! I know that's a very late idea but for myself I reject it as it contradicts description actually published by Tolkien himself. And thus he 'needs' no Telerin name too!


Here's something else about Amroth: wow now I'm really being annoying

Some think Treebeard's statement [in Quenya] to Galadriel and Celeborn possibly includes Amroth in the plural. I'm no linguist and could easily be wrong here, but about the use of the plural in Treebeard's statement: 'fair ones, begetters of fair ones' I note the Quenya plural marker in vanimálion 'of fair ones'

While I'm not sure all is known about this marker, we do know that Quenya has a dual marker, which might be employed if Treebeard was speaking of two children [theoretically Amroth and Celebrian], but in any case I think he is speaking much more generally here. There are no more Entings for Ents, and having no more children might easily be on Treebeard's mind; and the fair Elves have had 'many' fair children, by comparison anyway.

Also of possible note here, Tolkien analyzed falmalinnar in The Lord of the Rings as falma-li-nnar, in the interlinear translation in RGEO, and appears to have glossed the middle element as 'many'.

And if that's the case it seem a bit odd to me to refer to two children as 'many'. Well again, if.

I'll shaddap now. Maybe. Apologies

[Galin]

Did Nandor have golden hair? I'd have thought *silver* like the Teleri. This last item makes me....wonder.....just if that little, ole Amroth had his ma's golden tresses, a-la Finarfin, a-la Indis......

I'm not sure silver hair was a Telerin trait necessarily. Tolkien noted, at least about the Sindar, who were a Telerin branch remaining in Beleriand....

'Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan). In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.'

JRRT, War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar

In any case Amroth's golden hair is noted in the same text in which he is the son of Amdir, not Celeborn and Galadriel. So we have another golden-haired Sinda according to Amroth and Nimrodel, despite the general picture drawn above...

... and in Appendix F.