Biggest Heroes in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It'd have to be Eärendil and Frodo to me because their actions turned the tide of the times. They may not have been the strongest of their species but were perhaps the greatest by what they did. I'm not sure who I'd choose from the 2nd Age, maybe I'd give a dual trophy to Gil-galad and Elendil since they wrestled and beat Sauron.

Second age has to be Gil-galad for me. He doesn't. Fall for Sauron'wiles as annatar, rules wisely and well for an age, builds vital alliances with Numenor then finally does the classic Noldor king dramatic and valiant death.

First age, Finrod, Beleg, Tuor and Idril, Fingolfin


Special mention for Cirdan and Elrond, models of self sacrifice

[Pervinca Took]

For the Second Age, I think I'd maybe choose Amandil. Heartbreaking self-sacrifice.

[Inziladun]

It's not an easy choice, but in LOTR I might lean to Gandalf. Unlike Frodo and Bilbo, who did heroic things with relative ignorance of the big picture, Gandalf was charged with the awesome responsibility of organizing the resistance to Sauron. He should have had the assistance of his fellow Wizards, but they were either wandering in the Wild East, playing with the birds, butterflies, and squirrels in Mirkwood, or plotting to rule the world. Gandalf, through all his trials, showed admirable patience, and to me even more importantly, he never lost sight of the end goal, toward which everything he did led.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'd leave room for disagreement on this only because there were Bilbo and Gollum who lived with the Ring much longer than Frodo and obviously used it more often, and there were periods when they were to a great degree not downtrodden at its loss. Gollum for a while when under Frodo's wing while Frodo had the Ring was turning it around, after nearly 500 years with it, and Bilbo actually let it go after about 50-60 years with it.

Frodo was under the pump, relative to Gollum and Bilbo, because Sauron's power had grown, greatly at the time Frodo had the Ring. He also bore it in Mordor and, as was noted in text, the Ring's power grew as it approached the place of its making.

My heroes:

Beren and Luthien. They pulled it off--Sauron's creepy tower, and then Morgoth's throne. She did it for love.

Meriadoc and Eowyn and slaying the Nazgul - I still tear up about that one....some brave shorty and love-crazed ice maiden stand before this thing of maximum creepy and do it in. One for women, and one for short things.

And an *all time* favourite - Silmarien of Andunie, first female in the Line of Elros and keeper of the line of the Faithful

[Mithalwen]

She did it for her own interests, to satisfy her own lust, and got my Finrod killed...she is a villain, the hideous baggage, we hates her, we hates her forever!

[Lotrelf]

Yes,Pervinca, it was his illness in March. Though, why did he decide to go after that?

As for strength thing, I agree. From the text, it is clear that Frodo is NOT unable to fight. When they're in danger at Weathertop, it is Frodo who stabs Witchking. "He was hardly less terrified than the other Hobbits."(not exact quote, but it said something like this.) Before the Ring starts taking hold of him, it's him, among the hobbits who fights. Later in story, Ring gets heavier. We are given how it was affecting him i.e. He was the most weary among the three, He lagged and Sam had to ask Gollum to stop so that they don't leave their master behind etc.etc.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's not an easy choice, but in LOTR I might lean to Gandalf. Unlike Frodo and Bilbo, who did heroic things with relative ignorance of the big picture, Gandalf was charged with the awesome responsibility of organizing the resistance to Sauron.

Frodo knew big picture. He knew Ring's evil & nature when Gandalf told him about the Ring. And when he decided to take the Ring to Mordor, it was HIM who saw the 'big picture.' Others, Including Gandalf and Elrond had academic knowladge of the Ring. But Frodo knew the torment of it.
As for Bilbo, I haven't read the book yet, and seen only first movie.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Frodo knew big picture. He knew Ring's evil & nature when Gandalf told him about the Ring. And when he decided to take the Ring to Mordor, it was HIM who saw the 'big picture.' Others, Including Gandalf and Elrond had academic knowladge of the Ring. But Frodo knew the torment of it.
As for Bilbo, I haven't read the book yet, and seen only first movie.

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

[Mithalwen]

I can see why you might think that but I think Tolkien compared it to the Annunciation and Mary and the sundering of self to the divine will. Of course that may be a retrofitted idea to fit with his "consciously Catholic in the revision" statement.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

He was not "too quick" to volunteer. Or may be he didn't delay, and he should not. If you do not trust his volunteerism as heroic, I'd want you to recall the scene on Seat on Seeing where he sees "visions" and in the end feels Ring's will working on him(the Eye thing) and Gandalf's intervention. Two wills working on him, both of them stronger than his, trying to dominate him. I don't think after this he couldn't say "no" to the quest. He had "excuse". While reading the books we see he has every reason/excuse to give up, but doesn't. He did not complete his journey only because of Sam & Gollum, but because of his own too. For his quest taking because of his attachment to the Ring, I'd like you to read Tolkien's quote:

Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that.

I feel, this pretty much answers your question. and when Bilbo could give it up after 60 years, how come Frodo could not give it up after 17 years? Sigh.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I never trusted Frodo's volunteerism. I recall thinking he was too quick to volunteer, and wondered if it was his attachment to the Ring's evil that was talking when he volunteered.

Interesting thought, but I don't concur, because it's said that he felt "an overwhelming desire to rest and stay beside Bilbo's side in Rivendell." I believe he only volunteered because no-one else offered (except Bilbo, who was too old) and he felt it was his duty.

There might be an element of what you mentioned in Bilbo's offer, perhaps ... he had possessed the Ring so long, and desperately wanted to see and hold it again, in that scene in the Hall of Fire.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Cirdan. For enduring the longest boring seaside retirement in history.

[cellurdur]

It's hard to compare such things like this, because we all have different capacities. think all we can be expected to do is to do our best. Frodo did that and this is why he was a hero and the ring was destroyed. He gave every last bit of energy he had to destroying the ring. Luthien and Earendil may have been able to destroy it, because they had greater natural talents, but that does not make them any more of a moral hero than Frodo.

In terms of the greatest deed then Luthien and Beren have to be first, because they accomplished the most difficult task. They alone were able to do what the entire army of the Noldor failed to do; take a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown.

[Mithalwen]

But they did it purely for their own benefit so to me that is not heroism.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Gotta give a nod to Finrod, who gave up his kingdom and undertook a suicide mission just because he had sworn an oath (and to Beren's father, not even Beren himself); and who, alone among all the Eruhini, dared take on Sauron face-to-face in a contest of magic.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, that is heroism. Tackling a werewolf with your nails and teeth deserves a degree of respect too..possibly more...rater more hands on approach.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Beleg also gets full marks in the "self-sacrificing loyalty" department.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But they did it purely for their own benefit so to me that is not heroism.

No they did it to fulfill an oath they made and had many times to turn away. Beren and Luthien had no personal wish to gain a Silmaril. In terms of self sacrifice for the greater good then the obvious stand out examples are Earendil, Frodo and Cirdan.

[Mithalwen]

Can't argue with that. I cried for him as well as Felagund when I was eleven and reading the Silmarillion for the first time. But there was no comforting "but Finrod walks with his father..."...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No they did it to fulfill an oath they made and had many times to turn away. Beren and Luthien had no personal wish to gain a Silmaril. In terms of self sacrifice for the greater good then the obvious stand out examples are Earendil, Frodo and Cirdan.

That is disingenuous. They needed the Silmaril to get what they wanted for themselves. Noone else benefitted and it caused many deaths. It would have been better for everyone else if they had turned away or failed.

[Inziladun]

For The Silmarillion, I'll go with my namesake, Tar-Palantir.
He did what he could to turn his kingdom back to the paths of peace and wisdom, in what was a time of violent unrest and likely personal danger for him and his child. He stayed true to the purpose and never backed down. His lack of success should not be counted against him.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

That is disingenuous. They needed the Silmaril to get what they wanted for themselves. Noone else benefitted and it caused many deaths. It would have been better for everyone else if they had turned away or failed.

Not at all. Luthien gives Beren the option of abandoning the quest and leaving with her. It would have been dishonourable on Beren's part, but something he could have done and still left with Luthien. In the end he gives his life to ensure that he fulfills his oath even it meant taking the jewel from the crown of Morgoth.

[Mithalwen]

But it still is all about them. Makes it worse really if needless. Fighting to the last drop of other people's blood is the opposite of heroic.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it still is all about them. Makes it worse really if needless. Fighting to the last drop of other people's blood is the opposite of heroic.

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

high five to that. I add in that it was a story about the power of two/love, and how heroism is evoked for and of love. Neither Beren nor Luthien would, either alone, have been so moved to heroism, but for their love of each other. Unto the end of time they would have gone for their love.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown.

I agree with Beren being at the top of the list of heroes. However, only one hero ever dared to fight Morgoth.

Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

So Finrod was held to his oath, but Beren was not? They both had a choice whether to keep their oaths or abandon them. Sometimes as Tolkien shows as with Beregond.

If I remember correctly Luthien escaped from the dungeon and went off to save Beren. People sacrifice and are sacrificed everyday for much less than love. Personally if you are going to sacrifice yourself then 'love' is a much better reason than gold or land. Nor is it a problem when those that love you join in the quest. It seems we will never be in agreement about this.

[Mithalwen]

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

Finrod had a choice whether to break his oath or stick by it. The same as Belegrond did. Finrod made the choice to keep his oath.

Beren did not need to fulfill his oath to gain any benefit for himself. Luthien had already declared that she would stick with him no matter what.

'But on either road I will go with you, and our doom shall be alike.'

Fulfilling his oath gave Beren nothing, but he felt compelled as an honourable man to try and fulfill his oath or die in the attempt.

Beren too tried to protect Luthien from the dangers of Morgoth and left her.

'Then Beren being torn between his oath and his love, and knowing Luthien to be now safe, arose one morning before the sun, and committed her to the care of Huan; then in great anguish he departed whilst she still slept on the grass.'

Beren gives up having a life with Luthien, his love, to try and fulfill the oath though he is almost certain to die. He is not doing this for anything he can gain, but to be a man of his word.

'Thrice now I curse my oath to Thingol' he said ' And I would rather that he had slain me in Menegorth, rather than I should bring you under the shadow of Morgoth'.

If you have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love then why do you have a problem with Finrod's companions doing the same thing or even Finrod.

Beren and Luthien never forced anyone to die for them. People helped them, because they loved them. Huan and Finrod and the other elves. However, you would call them idiotic.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

Yes, heroic. Is there anything heroic that's not suicidal? You can't be a hero unless you take great risks and (potentially) give up all you have, including your life, for your cause. Fingolfin utterly despaired and was definitely desperate, which makes him somewhat suicidal, but suicide is not what he had in mind when he changed Thangorodrim. It was not "I want to die now, so let's arrange for Morgoth to kill me. I'll look good, but it's not like I have any chance against him". It was more like "Have we not done everything that's possible to defeat him? Mandos' profecy must be coming true, and we'll come to complete destruction. I hate Morgoth! I'm in complete despair! There's no way out, no solution! Nothing we can do will be any good!"