I Hate Feanor

[Nikkolas]

When discussing Sauron elsewhere, I reflected on the many horrific nicknames given to him and his master Melkor.

But ya know, Feanor should get some.

I despised no one in all of The Silmarillion more than Feanor. His stupidity and arrogance caused more suffering than anyone save the two Dark Lords. But whereas both of them started off with high purpose, Feanor just wanted his pretty jewels back. And don't tell me "he wanted to avenge hs father." If he gave a crap about his dad he wouldn't have abandoned one of his father's sons to possible death and certain suffering. The Kinslaying was barbaric and unnecessary but what he did to Fingolfin and the others right afterward should earn him the title of The Deceiver.

The Oath of caused untold pain and strife and I do feel sorry for at least a few of his sons but Feanor himself was an irredeemable monster.

So what say you? I thought of this topic after finishing reading LOTR forr the first time. I was contemplating the pitiable state of Saruman and the tragedy of his fall and I thought of the one major villain in Tolkien that I never felt sorry for in the least.

[Belegorn]

One thing that may have contributed to Fëanor's actions was the 2nd marriage of his father to Indis. Elves marry for life and taking a 2nd spouse was sort of unheard of. This marriage in the end condemned his mother to being discarnate forever. To Indis and her children he held a grudge therefore. There is also this thing with the language of the Noldor. He was a linguist and he believed that þ should be used rather than s and when Indis married his father and accepted the Noldor's use of s rather than þ he felt that was a rejection of Miriel, his mother, because she used þ and so did Finwe until Miriel died. He had a lot going on. He thought his position as heir was going to be usurped, he thought the Valar were plotting against him, he hated Morgoth, and his father was killed by Morgoth.

Fëanor means "spirit of fire". This was his nature. He was in the end very much deceived by the designs of Melkor so I cannot put all the blame on him. The Silmarils were his greatest creation. Even the Valar knew not how he came to create such a thing. These were his darlings, his babies, his crowning achievement.

"For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman." [sil, p. 87]

In his speech to the Noldor he basically rehashed Melkor all over. He wanted to go to Middle-earth and rule there because he believed that the Valar were holding them captive in Aman so that a lesser people, Men, could rule the wide world. He wanted revenge on Melkor for stealing his Silmarils. He was not the only one deceived, but in the end his folly ended up making the Noldor a legendary people in their deeds on Middle-earth and in Beleriand.

[Zigûr]

Like all of Professor Tolkien's "villainous" characters (although he's more of an anti-hero, wouldn't you say?) I find Fëanor to be an absolutely fascinating character. I think his crimes are an excellent representation of that consistent theme in Professor Tolkien's work that obsession enables dangerously absolutist behaviours and the rationalisation of any misdeed, especially as a risk for the gifted and exceptional.

I'm not sure how much sympathy I have for Fëanor, but despite the grandiosity of his deeds I do feel a great deal of empathy for him, because I think he encapsulates some very fundamental human themes, if in a rather exaggerated way.

[Galadriel55]

Firstly, let us not call Feanor a villain. Morgoth is a villain. Sauron is a villain. Gothmog, Glaurung, and etc are villains. Not Feanor. He is not an evil guy. He is not even a bad guy. He's just a mad one. Well, at least partially. And many geniuses of the real world are partially mad.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Fëanor means "spirit of fire". This was his nature.

I agree with that. Feanor is no Finarfin. He was born with an unusual strength of spirit - that which gave him his charisma and also his feyness and rashness.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Like all of Professor Tolkien's "villainous" characters (although he's more of an anti-hero, wouldn't you say?)

Yes, I think that anti-hero works better for classifying him.

Originally Posted by Zigur

I'm not sure how much sympathy I have for Fëanor, but despite the grandiosity of his deeds I do feel a great deal of empathy for him, because I think he encapsulates some very fundamental human themes, if in a rather exaggerated way.

I'm not particularly sympathetic towards him either, but I love him as a character. Because it's his fault, but it's not his fault. Because he is a figure that only comes once (and he really does, haha...). Because he is fey, and you know that, but how do you change that, since it's his nature to be so fiery? Because you can't not be awed by him and by his deeds. Wrong as they were, you cannot deny their greatness. I wish more stories had their own Feanor figures.

And, bottom line is, every Noldo chose for himself. If they went with Feanor, it was because they chose to. Yes, Feanor was charismatic and inspiring and even fearsome to an extent (which, by the way, just makes me respect and be in awe of Feanor even more). But the Noldor collectively made the choice to follow him.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But the Noldor collectively made the choice to follow him.

They did, but "collectively" means that some went so as not to desert their fellows, not purely through their own desire.

However, otherwise I agree with what you said, Galadriel.

I think I feel too detached from Feanor to either hate or love him, although I too empathise with his losses.

He's the kind of character whose deeds make you uncomfortable, although you admire him, and that's why he's so powerful and memorable, I think. Perhaps Turin has some elements of this, too. The flawed and tragic hero that you can't forget but can't always wholly forgive either?

[Mithalwen]

Feanor is a tragic hero brought down by a flaw in his own character and digging him self deeper and deeper. I pity him and I think destroying the Silmarilli would have destroyed him. I dislike his sons more on the whole and it would be a very different history without him... He isn't evil in the way Melkor and Sauron are.

[Belegorn]

Reading some of the other things besides the Silmarillion regarding Fëanor it appears to me like a fire no longer contained, and out of control. In one version his mom lives while he grows up and she restrains him, but in any case, it would appear his mother name, "spirit of fire", blends into his actions during the rebellion. I do think the 2nd marriage of his father was really the thing that got things going. It seems the Valar themselves were worried about this. In the end some small part may be attributed to Melkor's influence in Arda, Morgoth's Ring.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Feanor is a tragic hero brought down by a flaw in his own character and digging him self deeper and deeper. I pity him and I think destroying the Silmarilli would have destroyed him. I dislike his sons more on the whole and it would be a very different history without him...

Well said! Indeed, on the whole I dislike his sons more than him. Or, let's put it this way: I have reasons to like his sons sometimes but I have stronger reasons to dislike them at other times (I'm talking about al those switches back and forth that make you wonder who you're rooting for). I have reasons to disagree with Feanor, and lots of reasons to admire him and to empathize with him - but not to dislike him. He seems to be above such an unpassionate description.

On the other hand, though, I do not have pity for him in the sense that I think that he got what he deserved. Still, I am totally in awe with his character.

[Mithalwen]

Oh yes....I don't pity him that and I think Belegorn is right. He is an uncontainable force of nature anf was born thus. He is such an extreme character. His creativity is balanced by the destruction he wreaks. Hia possessiveness by his losses. Maybe his refusal to yield was triggered by his mother's refusal to try to cling to life.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

When discussing Sauron elsewhere, I reflected on the many horrific nicknames given to him and his master Melkor.

But ya know, Feanor should get some.

I despised no one in all of The Silmarillion more than Feanor. His stupidity and arrogance caused more suffering than anyone save the two Dark Lords. But whereas both of them started off with high purpose, Feanor just wanted his pretty jewels back. And don't tell me "he wanted to avenge hs father." If he gave a crap about his dad he wouldn't have abandoned one of his father's sons to possible death and certain suffering. The Kinslaying was barbaric and unnecessary but what he did to Fingolfin and the others right afterward should earn him the title of The Deceiver.

The Oath of caused untold pain and strife and I do feel sorry for at least a few of his sons but Feanor himself was an irredeemable monster.

So what say you? I thought of this topic after finishing reading LOTR forr the first time. I was contemplating the pitiable state of Saruman and the tragedy of his fall and I thought of the one major villain in Tolkien that I never felt sorry for in the least.

The logic that requires Feanor to be blamed for everything, doesn't go far enough - Morgoth is the source of all the evil in Arda, including that in Feanor. Feanor is as much a victim as a criminal - more so, arguably. A monster could not have made the Silmarils.

[Nikkolas]

And Sauron was a victim too at one point I bet. Nothing is evil in the beginning.

But Feanor foresook any sympathy when he dragged a bunch of innocent elves to their deaths. The Sil states in no uncertain terms that Feanor in his speech motivating everyone to leave, was repeating Melkor's lies. His supposed great enemy fed him falsehoods and yet he chose to regurgitate them so as to gather an army to assail Melkor with. A nice disposable host of elves so he could reclaim his pretty gems.

The fact is Feanor did not lead the exodus of Valinor for any even vaguely noble end. Everything he told to his followers was a pack of lies and an excuse to get them to come with him and thus increase his chances of defeating Melkor.

I do hold him accountable for every elf who died after leaving the Blessed Realm because they died needlessly and for one elf's supreme selfishness.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The fact is Feanor did not lead the exodus of Valinor for any even vaguely noble end. Everything he told to his followers was a pack of lies and an excuse to get them to come with him and thus increase his chances of defeating Melkor.

I do hold him accountable for every elf who died after leaving the Blessed Realm because they died needlessly and for one elf's supreme selfishness.

I think I read The Silmarillion a little more dispassionately than you do. Nonetheless, I see Fëanor as more of an enabler rather than originator. We have to remember that for a long time he avoided Melkor ("he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him")("Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor") until Melkor came himself to Formenos.

Additionally, discontent was sown first in the hearts of other Noldor: "Visions he would conjure in their hearts of the mighty realms that they could have ruled at their own will, in power and freedom in the East". It was only when this rumour 'got about' that "Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Fëanor; and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Fëanor above all" ("Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor").

Upon their exile, then, Fëanor "urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East, before it was too late; for he echoed the lies of Melkor" ("Of the Flight of the Noldor"). In that regard I think that Fëanor was only really telling the Noldor what they already believed and wanted to hear, and as such the theft of the Silmarils was by and large an excuse for them to do what they already longed for. The recovery of these holy artefacts was a pretense for them to seek what they desired, power and kingship in Middle-earth, which was something they struggled to do, rather disastrously, throughout the First and Second Ages.

Again, I don't feel sympathy for Fëanor, but I still believe that he was not alone in his crimes, and where blame does not lie at the feet of Melkor himself much of it lies with the dissident Noldor at large.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Galadriel
Firstly, let us not call Feanor a villain. Morgoth is a villain. Sauron is a villain. Gothmog, Glaurung, and etc are villains. Not Feanor. He is not an evil guy. He is not even a bad guy. He's just a mad one. Well, at least partially. And many geniuses of the real world are partially mad.

"For the great Gaels of Ireland,
Are the men that God made mad.
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad."

(G. K. Chesterton). Of course, a British Catholic theological writer and poet, and contemporary of Tolkien.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

But Feanor foresook any sympathy when he dragged a bunch of innocent elves to their deaths.

I'm not sure about the others being "innocent elves". For example, Galadriel "had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others" and in Fëanor "she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared". Interestingly enough, "she DID NOT perceive that the shadow of the SAME EVIL had fallen upon the minds of ALL the NOLDOR., and upon her OWN." [U.T., p. 241] So whereas, like you she sees this stain in Fëanor, it is clear that the stain has touched most/all of the Noldor.

In Valinor, believe it or not, in his relationship with Melkor, Fëanor "held NO CONVERSE with him and took NO COUNSEL FROM him" [Sil, p. 71] whereas everyone else did, "both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it" [70] and among the Noldor "some harkened to his words that it would have been better for them never to have heard" [71]. I think maybe it should also be noted that, "none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor" even "snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar"[71].

Lastly it is said:

"they [gods] mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil." [Sil, p. 112]

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The fact is Feanor did not lead the exodus of Valinor for any even vaguely noble end. Everything he told to his followers was a pack of lies and an excuse to get them to come with him and thus increase his chances of defeating Melkor.

Perhaps. I did not say he was a good person, I only insist that he is a Great person - with a capital G. It takes a truly Great person to raise all his people for a not directly necessary cause. The rebellion against the Valar was a side effect of the hunt for the Silmarilli, but even Morgoth would not have been able to do it so completely.

So, while I completely agree that the consequences of Feanor's actions were devastating, and that he is not a RL or ME role model, I think that he still is a Great person.

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

I do hold him accountable for every elf who died after leaving the Blessed Realm because they died needlessly and for one elf's supreme selfishness.

What do you think of Fingon, or at least Gwindor, then? If it hadn't been for the rash assault, maybe the Nirnaeth Arnoediad would have had a different name. But no one blames either one of them, though they do hold responsibility. I do understand that in this case the deathblow was struck by the treachery of Men, not by the assault, but in Feanor's case I believe the deathblow was the Curse and the Kinslaying, not Feanor's words in Tirion. And in both cases, what came after - came after. Yes, they are responsible for it, but that's not a reason to hate them.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

"For the great Gaels of Ireland,
Are the men that God made mad.
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad."

(G. K. Chesterton). Of course, a British Catholic theological writer and poet, and contemporary of Tolkien.

Very elegantly said. There must be some connection between my admiration of the poem and my admiration of tragic heroes *cough*Feanor*cough*Turin*cough*

And speaking of the abovementioned tragic heroes that I passionately defend, I just want to ask you all a question out of pure curiosity about the matter. When you read the stories, Turin and Feanor and the like are presented as heroes - very flawed heroes, but heroes nonetheless. Moreover, their contemopraries regarded them as such; perhaps not everyone and all the time, but overall both end up with pplenty of deference from those who have just outlived them. And the later Ages speak of both as great heroes too. Middle Earth and Middle Earth history seems to have accepted the Greatness despite the wrongs. But, as readers, you still think that the wrongs of deeds and character and consequences outweigh the sheer scope of those three things? As in, that they are Great people despite?

[Morthoron]

Fëanor was an artistic genius, and as such was much like others of his ilk, too passionate and prone to rage for his own good.

I can't say that I hated the character, but felt more disappointed in his failings; but everything he ever did was on a grand scale. Even in death he proved larger than life, his inner fire consuming him.

As Neil Young once said, "Better to burn out than to fade away."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps. I did not say he was a good person, I only insist that he is a Great person - with a capital G. It takes a truly Great person to raise all his people for a not directly necessary cause. The rebellion against the Valar was a side effect of the hunt for the Silmarilli, but even Morgoth would not have been able to do it so completely.

So, while I completely agree that the consequences of Feanor's actions were devastating, and that he is not a RL or ME role model, I think that he still is a Great person.

I concur. And like many of that kind, he was more willful than evil.

Sauron was both Great (is there one entity that has had a larger and longer-lasting effect on ME?) and evil (I mean really, really evil- the kind of guy who tortured people because he liked it.)

Feanor was Great (many reasons given already) and willful (I'll have my way, period!).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I concur. And like many of that kind, he was more willful than evil.

Sauron was both Great (is there one entity that has had a larger and longer-lasting effect on ME?) and evil (I mean really, really evil- the kind of guy who tortured people because he liked it.)

Feanor was Great (many reasons given already) and willful (I'll have my way, period!).

Agreed on all points.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps. I did not say he was a good person, I only insist that he is a Great person - with a capital G. It takes a truly Great person to raise all his people for a not directly necessary cause.

A great person, or a great orator? Certainly the Noldor, as talented craftsmen and loremasters, are capale of rational and sophisticated thought; as you noted, the cause Fëanor gave them was not directly necessary, and perhaps bordered on foolishness. Fëanor's speeches, in my opinion, have the power to diminish such rationality, and given the circumstances (a paradise that has been marred with blood, lies and death) which affect not only Fëanor but the Noldor generally, the latter would perhaps be easier to manipulate than usual.

That being said, I too find Fëanor to be a fascinating character. I do not think he is evil, though he does evil deeds. I am sympathetic to the fact that he was, initially, the only person in Valinor to be so gravely affected by loss and bitterness, possibly exacerbated by the thought that he might have caused his mother's death. This is, of course, no excuse for mass murder and sedition, and that he could lead his supposedly beloved sons into such great peril is quite startling. At this point I am not sure whether a great desire for revenge and insanity are the same for him.

[Belegorn]

I think, Fëanor's great love was to his father. His death clearly hurt him, and no less by the being he hated most in Arda, Morgoth, "none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor" [Sil, p. 71]. It is known that Finwë gave all of his love and most of his thought to Fëanor who he went into banishment with after Fëanor pulled a sword out on Fingolfin. As to Fëanor's own feelings to his father:

"his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" [p. 88]

There were some circumstances at work against Fëanor that were a bit abnormal. His mother died and his father remarried and wanted more children. It's said, "if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented" [Sil, p. 69] Also he created of the most magnificent gems in Arda that were envied by the mightiest being in Arda.

If he held those feelings about his mother's death [that he was the cause] he held them also for his father's demise, thinking "in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed." [Sil, p. 88]

Again, his circumstances were a bit abnormal. He loses both his parents in the land of the deathless. He lost his greatest creations. I think in the end he loved his father more than his sons, and even though he knew his sons could never hope to topple Melkor he told them to keep the Oath and avenge him. I guess it's something to do with his greatest love and his greatest hate.

[Lotrelf]

I'm reading The Sil these days for the first time. I don't hate Fe�0Š1nor(sp?), I liked him. Though, I don't know what happened to him in the end, I kind of feel sorry for him(I feel he ended as a tragedy, didn't he?). As someone said he's sort of an "anti-hero", I agree with him/her. Nothing to add more right now.

[Pervinca Took]

No Feanor - no kinslaying, much less anguish - but no Silmarils and maybe no Palantiri - and no Feanorian script (although I'm sure others could provide one as good or nearly as good - I know far less about elvish scripts and tongues than, maybe, I ought). I know I'm stating the obvious about the complexity of so much good as well as evil coming from this one character. But perhaps the implications of this dichotomy go further still. No Feanor, no Celebrimbor ... in the absence of Feanor's grandson, would another have had the skill to fashion the Three Rings and imbue them with the particular power and protection (to a point) from the One that they had? Might there have been no Lothlorien or Rivendell? Or at least, no Lothlorien or Rivendell with the depth of strength and healing power they possessed in the book? Plus the implications for Narya and the sustained strength of Gandalf.

[blantyr]

Maybe he should have just spent a bit more on the security system for his jewelry collection?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Maybe he should have just spent a bit more on the security system for his jewelry collection?

Fëanor was the most security-conscious in all Aman, probably. His father was at home during the crime, and the home itself was an arsenal. It just goes to show that bad guys with a plan and a purpose can surprise and overwhelm all but the most careful precautions.

[Belegorn]

One good thing that did come about was that for a time the Noldor did stay Melkor's hand in Beleriand for several hundred years. He was about to take over all of Beleriand by overthrowing Doriath when they came. Fëanor and his people destroyed his army utterly.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Maybe he should have just spent a bit more on the security system for his jewelry collection?

I do not think Fëanor kept his jewels out at all, "the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron." [Sil, ch. 7, p. 77] It is also said, "though at great feasts Fëanor would wear them, blazing on his brow, at other times they were guarded close, locked in the deep chambers of his hoard in Tirion." [p. 74] That was before his exile when he then built a treasury in the hills at Formenos and had them "shut in a chamber of iron". The only people he was comfortable around with the jewels were his father, who he loved most of all, and his sons.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

When discussing Sauron elsewhere, I reflected on the many horrific nicknames given to him and his master Melkor.

But ya know, Feanor should get some.

I despised no one in all of The Silmarillion more than Feanor. His stupidity and arrogance caused more suffering than anyone save the two Dark Lords. But whereas both of them started off with high purpose, Feanor just wanted his pretty jewels back. And don't tell me "he wanted to avenge hs father." If he gave a crap about his dad he wouldn't have abandoned one of his father's sons to possible death and certain suffering. The Kinslaying was barbaric and unnecessary but what he did to Fingolfin and the others right afterward should earn him the title of The Deceiver.

The Oath of caused untold pain and strife and I do feel sorry for at least a few of his sons but Feanor himself was an irredeemable monster.

So what say you? I thought of this topic after finishing reading LOTR forr the first time. I was contemplating the pitiable state of Saruman and the tragedy of his fall and I thought of the one major villain in Tolkien that I never felt sorry for in the least.

Yes. In fact, there was less that divided evil and good in the distinction between the 'evil' in the way Morgoth was caste and as Feanor was, in personality. Feanor was extremely narcissistic. His motivational processes lacked a capacity to empathise and forgive. The commitment to covetous behaviour ('my Silmarils'--really 'my Precious') to justify kinslaying, deception, greed and his capacity to dismiss others' emotional experience in exchange for his own.

That's pretty seriously a problem.

But, while we're on a rant about how personality attributes failed the great, the Valar didn't do a very good job of working with brother Melkor. Really? Imprison with unbreakable chains for god knows how long and expect an atonement? ARE YOU KIDDING ME That had to be the totally dumbest way I can think of, of approaching estrangement amongst the Valar.

Did anyone try to 'add' to Melkor's creatures to repair or deepen their capacities as sentient beings, rather than mindlessly destroy them. We think, for example, that Gothmog (the First Age one, not the one on the Pelennor) was a *child* of Morgoth and some troll thing. That's a *child* of a *god* and part of the order of existence.

Why didn't anyone try to repair the Rings of Power? Or craft means of redeeming the Ringwraiths. There was this continual commitment to slaying in a competition for survival, and absolutely no energy, commitment, valour or *love* to guide reparations.

Nienna was the only Maia I can think of who just cried about the grand, great death and loss of the whole sorry confrontation. Of course , I'm not sure she'd be much company at a dinner party, with all that weeping when everyone needed a break from the toils of kinslaying, theft, murdering lovely trees, swollen spiders that gobble everything, ravenously hungry orcs who just can't stand the thought of an Elf anywhere nearby. Never mind that Orcs and Elves are cousins. Or that the Elves crafted full on death blades, murderous spears (Gil Galad), things that burn, zorch, belch spiritfire and that hack at existence, quite in their own way. Now, I'm not suggesting for a second that dear Sauron had the right approach either -- I mean, really, Annatar - what did you do? Put Celebrimbor's head on a PIKE for god's (sorry Eru's sake) and march on into the Ost In Edhil chopping away, spilling Elven blood. I mean, really? What ON MIDDLE EARTH did you have in mind to actually do, Sauron after blackening, poisoning and getting rid of all life? Not much to do in that kind of playground, hey.....

(sighs)(rubs temples)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Yes. In fact, there was less that divided evil and good in the distinction between the 'evil' in the way Morgoth was caste and as Feanor was, in personality. Feanor was extremely narcissistic. His motivational processes lacked a capacity to empathise and forgive. The commitment to covetous behaviour ('my Silmarils'--really 'my Precious') to justify kinslaying, deception, greed and his capacity to dismiss others' emotional experience in exchange for his own.

That's pretty seriously a problem.

Aye, but despite that, I wouldn't classify Feanor as evil. Why? Because of the intensity of everything that happened in and around him, and his fiery spirit, and his madness, and for god's sake because he's a tragic hero (or anti-hero, as Lotrelf nicely put). Because neither Jason or Medea are villains, or Paris or Menelaus or Odysseus. And neither is Feanor. Because good tragedies aren't written about Ingwes. Because in a tragedy, even though physically it may be someone's fault, but it's no one's fault and no one truly wanted it, and that's why it's a tragedy and not a moral fable of why it's bad to do so-and-so in such-and-such cases.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

We think, for example, that Gothmog (the First Age one, not the one on the Pelennor) was a *child* of Morgoth and some troll thing. That's a *child* of a *god* and part of the order of existence.

Wait, what? He's Morgoth's son? When does that happen?


By the way, welcome to the Downs! I don't believe I've said this yet to you. Please don't be scared off by my rant on my beloved tragedies.

[Belegorn]

Fëanor was on a whole other level from any of his kindred and "was made mightiest in ALL PARTS of BODY and MIND... of ALL the CHILDREN of Ilúvatar." [Sil., ch. 11. p. 112] He was like a Super Saiyan, his like would never be seen again. I do not think Fëanor was all that much like Melkor except that they were extreme in their prowess compared to their peers, otherwise I'm not sure that Fëanor was jealous of the works of his peers, nor envied them their success. The only things he was jealous of it seemed was his father's love, and the Silmarils.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

But his cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Fëanor’s fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: ‘Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!’ And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.

That alone is reason to be at least a little fond of Feanor, I think.

Hello, Barrow-Downs.

[Pervinca Took]

Well said, and welcome.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Aye, but despite that, I wouldn't classify Feanor as evil. Why? Because of the intensity of everything that happened in and around him, and his fiery spirit, and his madness, and for god's sake because he's a tragic hero (or anti-hero, as Lotrelf nicely put). Because neither Jason or Medea are villains, or Paris or Menelaus or Odysseus. And neither is Feanor. Because good tragedies aren't written about Ingwes. Because in a tragedy, even though physically it may be someone's fault, but it's no one's fault and no one truly wanted it, and that's why it's a tragedy and not a moral fable of why it's bad to do so-and-so in such-and-such cases.

I hear ya. I have to add that without empathy for him, I can't live an honest life, because that would make me a finger-pointer about another's foibles without bearing in mind another truth. Beware how we judge others, for the stronger the judgement, the more that points to a flaw or fracture in the self. There's an old saying, 'me thinks he doth protest too much', the predecessor attribution about defensive thinking. In the modern world, we might say 'hyper-moralisers beware--you're telling us more about you than who you're judging'. Or 'let he who cast the first stone'. And all that.

I remember, for a very long time, turning on Frodo and seeing him as the failed hero because his forbearance lapsed at the 11th hour at the Sammath Naur. It's only 25 years later that I found compassion for him, realising some of the implications of the burden he bore, and realising I suspect I'd be much more like ole Boromir, ultimately, than our noble Aragorn. A hard realisation to accept--that I'm just an ordinary human like the rest of us 9 billion souls, excepting people like Nelson Mandella, and Ghandi.

Wait, what? He's Morgoth's son? When does that happen?

I sooo get you. Looks like Morgoth liked to gettiton with his bad people! God god - he must give a new definition to deviant behaviour - I don't even want to think about him and Ungoliant any more........-

Book of Lost Tales. As a son of Morgoth and the ogress Fluithuin or Ulbandi. Versus Silmarillion, where he is a Maia and head Balrog honcho.

By the way, welcome to the Downs! I don't believe I've said this yet to you. lease don't be scared off by my rant on my beloved tragedies.

Say thank you muchly. I haven't seen flaming here so far, though I've seen good, strong position taking with a good splash of fine eyes for great detail. I love it!