Orcs and healing

[Bard the Bowman]

(this is my first post and thread so go easy on me)

i was just wondering,did orcs rescue their fellow wounded orcs and try to heal them?

[Zigûr]

We know from The Lord of the Rings that Orcs were quite skilled healers. When the Uruk-hai need Pippin to walk, "Uglúk thrust a flask between his teeth and poured some burning liquid down his throat: he felt a fierce glow flow through him. The pain in his legs and ankles vanished. He could stand."
Merry receives slightly further care:
"Uglúk pulled him into a sitting position, and tore the bandage off his head. Then he smeared the wound with some dark stuff out of a small wooden box."
It goes on to say:
"He was healing Merry in orc-fashion; and his treatment worked swiftly. When he had forced a drink from his flask down the hobbit's throat, cut his leg-bonds, and dragged him to his feet, Merry stood up, looking pale but grim and defiant, and very much alive. The gash in his forehead gave him no more trouble, but he bore a brown scar to the end of his days."
As we are told in The Hobbit, Orcs "make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones." I would argue from Merry and Pippin's treatment that such a description extends very accurately to their medicine.
How they treated their wounded fellows is something I will leave to others.

[mhagain]

I would guess that this is more pragmatic than altruistic. A fellow Orc soldier is a valuable resource that you may get into trouble for jeopardizing; knowledge of healing for light wounds, or those not immediately life-threatening, is therefore important, but I'd expect that an incapacitated Orc would be quite a different story.

[Mithalwen]

Yes they certainly wouldn't risk crossing Shelob. To rescuecthose of their fellows who ended up in her larder. Otherwise yes I agree tht those who could be returned to useful service with a bit of salve and firewater would be, others not..

[Bard the Bowman]

but wernt the hobbits a special case?

[Galadriel55]

Welcome to the Downs, Bard!

Originally Posted by Bard the Bowman

but wernt the hobbits a special case?

They didn't drag that medicine all the way with them just in case some hobbits got hurt, though. I think it's safe to assume that such medicine was common practice among the orcs. I doubt many of them really tried to save each others' lives, being orcs and all, but I could see them healing the more minor wounds with ease.

[Erestor]

Originally Posted by Bard the Bowman

but wernt the hobbits a special case?

He was healing Merry in orc-fashion; and his treatment worked swiftly.

Emphasis in mine, but it certainly shows that Orcs do take care of their wounded. And that they are quite skilled at it, as Zigur stated.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

They didn't drag that medicine all the way with them just in case some hobbits got hurt, though. I think it's safe to assume that such medicine was common practice among the orcs. I doubt many of them really tried to save each others' lives, being orcs and all, but I could see them healing the more minor wounds with ease.

I'm always wondering: are Orcs so individually devided as many people think they are? The way I see it, they live in smaller communities and do have a certain bond. After all, you don't see Orcs of the same kind fight each other very often. Every example I remember is about Orcs who are not from the same small society.

To name a few examples of Orcs fighting each other: Ugluk decapivating some Orcs to keep order, but those weren't Isengarders. The companies from Shagrat and Gorbag served in other places - Cirith Ungol stood under direct command of Sauron, and Minas Morgul I view as being ruled by the Witch-King, seeing how it has its own emblem. And in Mordor, we see two Orcs fight each other, and two companies. In both cases, those are fights between different kinds of Orcs - Uruks and lesser breeds.

Of course, Orcs take joy in fighting, but I'm wondering if the fights within one community aren't actually a rougher example of barfights, resulting in more casualties than fights between humans, but I don't think it would be worse and primally for their own joy. Like hobbits dance and drink, Orcs drink and fight (unarmed). Also, they tend to multiply faster than other races, and if they constantly kill each other the birth rates would have to be extremely high.

A counter argument for this view could be that the Orcs multiplied very slowly until the Nazgul and Sauron began to rebuild the former strength of Mordor, but this could be due to wars between those smaller, uncontrolled groups of Orcs. When the Nazgul and Sauron came along, they installed order between those smaller communities. Of course the twists still remained, but weren't as bad as before. And the order that was installed could lead to a population growth supported by greater economic possiblities (the slave fields of Nurn for example).

In this view, they certainly could take good care of each other, helping their own wounded. But maybe there is some evidence against it that I forgot.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Erestor

In this view, they certainly could take good care of each other, helping their own wounded. But maybe there is some evidence against it that I forgot.

That's quite true. I forgot that many of the orc-killing-orc cases are of quarrels between communities or divisions. But what a killing they do! One survivor from Cirith Ungol, from two companies! You don't need Aragorn to kill them, just give them permission to slaughter each other.

But at a certain point, I still think that no one would bother even with their mates. If the wounded orc is wounded heaviy enough, I doubt they would set up a Houses of Healing and fight tooth and nail for his life. Less drastic injuries they would heal, but when the prognosis is death, I doubt they would bother much.

[Mithalwen]

Isnt' there that conversation where the two orcs hope to get away somewhere quiet when it is all over? Shows maybe that orcs are capable of a kind of friendship beyond mutual dependence. However having recently read "All quiet on the western front", I think that until fairly recently the survivability threshold of battlefield injuries was set at a very different height. Forget the flying ITU's the modern milatary can deploy, pre anti-biotics you might survive an amputation if you were lucky or a clean shot somewhere not absolutely vital but you were quite liable to get an infection that would kill you slowly. I guess the orcs took a pragmatic view.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Isnt' there that conversation where the two orcs hope to get away somewhere quiet when it is all over?

Shagrat and Gorbag, who subsequently turn on each other. Even what cameraderie they do have can vanish just as quick.

[Inziladun]

This might be getting a bit afield of the original topic, but Orcs don't seem to have any sense of loyalty beyond their local commander and their ultimate leader, be it Sauron or Saruman (or the Balrog!), They certainly seem to owe that sense to fear primarily, so it would take a strong alpha-Orc like the Great Goblin or Azog to order healing procedures. At any rate, it's difficult to picture Orcs stopping in the middle of a battle to rescue wounded comrades, though afterward if any were still alive and looked to be viable fighting specimens in the future, I think they would do what they could to heal them.

[Alfirin]

To me, it seems like most orc alliances are based mostly on enligtened self interest. That is when deciding whether or not to help a fellow orc, the train of thought runs directly to "How will helping this orc benefit/cost me, versus how will NOT helping him".) Under those circumstances most of the interactions become a little clearer. Healing minor injuries of thier comrades in arms makes sense, since it means you don't lose fellow fighters and possibly have someone to guard your back in a fight, assuming that orcs, at least on a very limited level, have something equivalent to "gratitude" (assuming you are a rank and file orc) or another sword arm (if you are the commanding orc.)

If an orc is mortally wounded, however, most other orcs would probably not do much to help, since they would consider the cost to them exceeded the benefit. Commanders would not want seriosly injured men slowing down the ranks and the additional loss of manpower to carry and care for the incapacitated. In fact there would probably be a bit of incentive to actively "finish off" the mortally wounded. You can try and put a nice gloss on this by claiming it is mercy killing and putting them "out of their misery" But I suspect the real reason for most orcs to finish off any wounded fellows would be to speed up their ability to aquire thier resources, both better gear if the dying orc has it (maybe that was the source of the worn out orc shoes the fellowship found when they were tracking the party, some orc dying and the orc who found them noting the dead orc's boots were in better shape than his own. Or even, since orcs are cannibalistic, wanting to get the dying orc into the cookpot before whatever was killing him spoiled the meat.

Shagrat and Gorbag is actually a very good example. Originally they want to go into business together, since each recognizes the other as being a powerful ally in any sort of endevor like they are planning (basically, a co head for thier little bandit party) The conflict starts when they see Frodo's mithril coat i.e. sometihng of actual value and personal greed takes over. I sometimes wonder if either one really did orignally plan to take the coat to Barad-Dur. I think it possible that both probably orignally planned to simply keep it for themselves. After all, Frodo had a lot of other stuff on him that would have done as proof that they had him. Plus I seem to recall the orders simply said they had to prvide a complete LIST of items removed from the prisoner, not the items themselves (presumably unless called for, and in that case, Sauron would probably have sent a Nazgul to pick it up by beast.) I think Shagrat only ended up delivering it along with all of the other stuff post battle in order to sort of "bribe" the powers that be to not punish him for letting two whole battalions basically massacre each other (the "See, I'm a good soldier, I followed your orders to the letter, everything is here." line) and maybe actually get the higher ups to go against the above Orcish tradition and give him that kind of heavier healing. Remember, Shagrat was pretty badly wounded himself; in his position(given the assumption I am right), I might be worried about what would happen if I bumped into any other orcs on the way, or was send down to the Barad-dur Barracks. Getting the Barad Dur brass to look favorably on me and sort of put me "under thier protection" until I was healed might sound pretty good.)

[Bard the Bowman]

ah

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

If an orc is mortally wounded, however, most other orcs would probably not do much to help, since they would consider the cost to them exceeded the benefit. Commanders would not want seriosly injured men slowing down the ranks and the additional loss of manpower to carry and care for the incapacitated. In fact there would probably be a bit of incentive to actively "finish off" the mortally wounded.

Oddly enough, either Shagrat or Gorbag (don't have my books at present) remarks of Frodo's "great" companion that he apparently didn't value Frodo much because he just left Frodo lying there in the tunnel. It's interesting too that he calls that sort of behavior a "regular elvish trick". Was he referring to the failure to try and save Frodo, or not properly disposing of the body?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Oddly enough, either Shagrat or Gorbag (don't have my books at present) remarks of Frodo's "great" companion that he apparently didn't value Frodo much because he just left Frodo lying there in the tunnel. It's interesting too that he calls that sort of behavior a "regular elvish trick". Was he referring to the failure to try and save Frodo, or not properly disposing of the body?

Just checked, it's Gorbag.
As for a "regular Elvish trick", when's the last time Gorbag, a Morgul-Orc, dealt with Elves? Unless, I suppose, we ascribe to the theory that Orcs are long-lived.
Snaga also talks about "bloody-handed Elves, or one of those filthy tarks" so perhaps they had an ingrained antipathy for Elves and the Dúnedain: propaganda or a symptom of their corruption.
Gorbag also describes Sam (thinking him to be "a large warrior... Elf most likely") in this way:
"there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege."
I might be reading too much into one word, but does the use of 'rebel' suggest that Orcs thought of their enemies as 'rebels' in general - rebels against what was bred into them as second nature, that the Great Eye was the natural and rightful lord and master of the world? We are told in Morgoth's Ring that after Morgoth's defeat "the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command." This seemingly explains their attitude towards Elves and the Dúnedain, and also gives some suggestion as to why they might think of Sauron as being absolute ruler of the world with their enemies as mere 'rebels.'
The footnote to this states that "But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some 'enemy' to prevent them from slaying one another."
It's a sentiment very evocative of the notion of 'War is Peace' from "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchial Collectivism" in Nineteen Eighty-Four.
Additionally, does mention of the 'Great Siege', assuming Shagrat and Gorbag aren't old enough to have witnessed it first hand, suggest a reasonable concept of history in orc culture?
I've often wondered how much the characterisation of Orc characters in The Lord of the Rings is reflective of the degradation of human dignity and "coarse behaviour" of soldiers under extreme stress and in terrible conditions in the First World War. Letter 66's mention of "huts full of blasphemy and smut" has always resonated with me in this regard.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Yes. Gorbag and Shagrat showed some real camaradarie. Reminiscing about the good old das pillaging and terrorizing. They might indicate orcs more in their "natural" state (sans Sauron) happy to organize and respecting their own chums. Sort of like the Great Goblins crowd (the book, not the Hobbit movie travesty of their depiction and town). Think of Gorbag and Shagrat as Tolkien's Rosenkratz and Gildenstern.

[Alfirin]

I will under the circumstances. Had they actually manged to get away and form thier job, I'd prefer to think of them as Tolkien's Burke and Hare (just with a different destiny for thier victims) g>.
And I'd like to think gobags reference of digust is for letting all that good meat sit and rot. No old campainger who hase gone through scant rations likes to see such waste.

[Bard the Bowman]

i do not really believe shagrat and gorbart could "set off on our own with a few trusty lads" look what happened when they found frodo's mithril shirt

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Bard the Bowman

i do not really believe shagrat and gorbart could "set off on our own with a few trusty lads" look what happened when they found frodo's mithril shirt

Exactly.

They can be quite friendly with each other up to a point, but as soon as any reason (or excuse, even) to start fighting comes up, they've no issues with even going so far as killing each other.